Transcript of Sterling K. Brown New

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Doug Sheppard, and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Hello. Warning to the listeners and the viewers today. Bring some extra slack.

It's getting smoky.

Oh, my God. Sterling K. Brown. My goodness. He is an award-winning actor. This is Us, Paradise, American Fiction, Waves, Washington Black. And thank goodness, we have Season 2 of Paradise. Are out today. The first three episodes are out today on Hulu. What a show. I have watched several. It's phenomenal again. What a great show.

It is. He is fantastic.

He is fantastic. Please enjoy Sterling K. Brown.

He's an option expert. He's an option expert. He's an option We're so happy to have you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Welcome.

Did you self-drive? Of course. How long have you been this gorgeous? Because you played football in high school.

First of all, I love the research you guys do. I love how seemingly it's just like... Because you played high school football. I was like, Yeah, I know.

At St. Louis Country Day, Maryland Institute, St. Louis Country Day.

That's right. Let's go.

Where are you in the chair, baby? I played football from sixth grade through high school.

What position?

Fullback and inside linebacker. I like to hit people.

Okay, so you needed some size. You've been in a wait room since you were a kid.

Yeah, I've been in a wait room since I was a kid. But it was also born out of, I remember one time playing basketball when I was in sixth or seventh grade and we had to go shirts or skins, and I wasn't comfortable being Skins. I said to myself, I'm never going to put myself in that position again.

How old were you?

12, 13. Okay, Everybody at school wanted to be ripped. It was an all-dude, testosterone-filled environment. In the weight room, it said, The same dedication that builds a strong mind is the same dedication that builds a strong body. It was a school full of nerds who are also jocks, who are also art geeks. There was no stigma put on one thing because everybody was encouraged to do everything.

This sounds like a dreamy school.

It was awesome. It changed my life because my mom was actually a school teacher at the school in my school district.

Arlene. How do I say her name?

Arlene. Spelled by Lerlene Banks, who had a third-grade education. She's like, I'm going to spell it the way it sounds in my head. She's like, I know there's an R in there, so it's going to be A-R-A-L-E. A-r-a-l-e. That's grandma. Yeah, that's my grandma, Lerlene. She taught at Ladou School district, and everybody in my neighborhood went to Ladou school. And then my mom pulled me out of the public school system that put me in Country Day in my CDS. And a lot of my friends from my neighborhood was like, What, you think you're better than the Nets? You think you're something like that? I'm like, No, my mom saw that with young Black men, they were being tracked towards the lowest common denominator. They weren't being encouraged to make the most of whatever potential they had at their disposal. And she's like, I want you to maximize whatever it is that God has given you. So she put me in this environment, and I resisted it at first, but after a year of resistance, it was like joy. I was student council president. I was a geek for acting. I did football, basketball, track. I did community service.

I got to be every facet of myself.

That's rad. People ask Oh, did you do theater in your school? I'm like, No, you were killed if you did theater. It was too dangerous.

That's what my friends would say, What, you're going to walk around in tights or something? I was like, There's more than just tights, homie. There's all kinds of things. Turn on the TV. Nobody's in tights.

They were still friends with you? They just ribbed you? Or were they like, We can't be around you?

Some friendships melted because you're like, Oh, these people who I care about and grew up with or whatnot have something that they're dealing dealing with that they're placing on me. So I'm like, I'm not going to carry it too much. My next door neighbor and I both wound up going to Stanford. She was a basketball player. Now, I think she coaches at Berkeley, Sharman Smith. And the guy on the other side of me wound up playing division one basketball. And so when other people in the neighborhood will be like, Sterling, Shelby, think you better than people. They're like, Leave kelby alone. Kelby is doing this thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't sweat. I think people were both sides. Some people were the crabs in the barrel I want to pull you down. But other people were like, Yo, this young man is trying to make something of himself and is maximizing opportunities. So there was encouragement as well. Parents were always like, How are you doing, young man? You doing good? It's good to see you out here. You want to come by the house and hang out for a little bit? Parents love you.

Yeah, talk to my son. Exactly. All of that, is that how I say it? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Town of 8,000. So tiny.

You think there's a teleprompter right there?

I'm trying to see if there's a teleprompter around his son. Look at this.

I got an earwig in. I love this. But all of that, it's small. It's 8,000 people. It's a suburb of Saint Louis. What is the vibe and all of that? What's the demography?

Black and Jewish, I would say. It was a golf course. My high school football coach told me this about my neighborhood. He's like, Your neighborhood was a golf course. Then they cleared the golf course. They made residential neighborhood. It was a lot of Jewish families that moved in because it was lower income housing in a great school district. Leduc School district was very good. Then as a lot of the Jewish families aged up, the older people, the parents stayed, the kids moved out, but then a lot of Black families moved in. You had a lot of older Jewish people and a lot of young Black families in this neighborhood together. I remember a substitute teacher, Mrs. Wiebelman, lived right down the street from me. My first crush was Elizabeth Shervitz.

Mine was Elizabeth, too. Betsey, my first crush. Really?

Yeah. Elizabeth Shervitz, not Black. Shervitz. The Shervitz gave it away. But then it was the Browns and the Scots and the Smiths and the Herds. It was this wonderful place to grow where you rode your bikes everywhere. It felt like stranger things. We'd have these full neighborhood water gun fights where you have these super-soakers just blasting people. It was awesome.

I loved it. You're one of five. I don't know your order, but if you got Sterling, were you the first? Are you the oldest?

I am my dad's only child.

Interesting.

So Mom's was married before to Arthur Slautter, and she had three kids.

Fierce last name.

Slautter. Slautter is good. That's real. My brother and sister, Armin Slautter and Angela Slautter. Nice. Their oldest brother who passed away because he had a child born illness, his name was Anthony. So Arlene, Arthur, Anthony, Armin, and Angela. Then Mom's got divorced from Arthur, was Five years single, married Sterling Brown Jr. And I am Sterling Brown Jr's only son. Then my mom adopted two more kids when I started grad school. So I was 22 when my little brother Robert, and then two years later, my little sister Ariel came in.

She gets them through the church? How did she come up on...

This is interesting. My aunt Vera is the collector of things in our family. She brings home pets. She was a foster parent, and she brings home kids. But my aunt also was battling her own substance abuse things at that time. She would bring home pets and whatnot to take care of, and then be like, Here Billy, that's her sister, why don't you hold on to this? And now that becomes Billy's pet.

She was a A conduit.

A conduit. Yeah. Robert became, Arlene, I got to go do something real quick. I'll be back five weeks. Two weeks later. Then you call the social worker and let them know that the child is here. She just became the foster parent. The birth mother had another child. The birth mother actually had twins, but the birth mother was a substance abuser. My other twin sister, Avery, suffered crib death when she was within the first couple of months. Then Ariel survived. Ariel and Robert are my little brother and sister.

Wow. Arlene has been through it.

Arlene Brown currently lives with ALS. Oh, my goodness. Has been living with it for about eight years since 2018. She is an exercise in grace under the most extraordinary circumstances. We can't talk anymore because she can't verbalize, but she can react and smile and say, Mom, look at the clock if you like this or look this way if you want that or whatnot. But it reminds me as I go through, I just tore my Achilles. It sucks, boss.

Yeah, that's the worst.

No, ALS is the worst.

This is the worst. You have a perspective. This is a 100. Oh, the leg injuries. Let me asterisk that.

But it is. It is one of those times when I'm ready to throw myself a bit of a pity party. I think about how my mom has moved through this extraordinary set of circumstances and still has a level of calm and peace and acceptance of what's happening in her life.

Do you find, though, I will say, so I've got a friend right now that's going down really fast and with ALS. I'm sorry. But I'm built for this. I go over there and it's like, I can fucking monolog. I can let it rip, tell about 25 stories. Sure. That's all it is. I see some smiling and some laughing. You look for it. Yeah, I'm built for this.

I live for it. Any time I get my mom, when she laughs, her musculature has a tough time stopping the laugh. Or if she starts crying, it's a hard time because you don't have the muscle to slow. So sometimes I was like, Mama, don't laugh too hard. Mama, calm down. It's not that funny, Arlene. She's still going. And I was like, Brown, be quiet.

I still get it. But Sterling II was in the army in Germany during Vietnam. What the fuck is going on? What did he do for a living when he got home? You're 10 years with him. What did he do? This is right. You're so good. This makes me happy.

Nobody asked me about my daddy in New York. Sterling Brown Jr. Worked for Kroger's stores. If you're from the South, you know where Kroger is. He was a grocery clerk. He was the head of his union. Then ultimately, it got bought out by a local grocery store chain, and he lost his job and within months, lost his life. Oh, my goodness. It's one of those things where it reminds me often to not equate what I do with who I am? Because we have such cyclical employment. Not you anymore because you got this podcast. There is this cyclical nature to what we do so that your level of worth can go like this if you allow your employment status dictate who you are.

Which you have virtually no control over. So you've anchored your identity to something that is up to other people.

Completely and totally. It was a good lesson for me to see because you saw his life spirit go away and just stop trying. And he was only 45 when it all happened.

What did he die of?

He had a heart attack with complications from sugar diabetes. But didn't know he had diabetes.

I love that Black folks always say sugar diabetes. They never say diabetes. Always sugar diabetes. Or just the sugar.

If I I had another table, if you were different here, he had the sugar.

Thanks for code switching for us and including diabetes.

I'm here. Listen, Brown serves everybody.

Is that supposed to designate between type 1 and type 2? Or is that just no? That's just something you say.

There's only sugar diabetes.

There's only sugar diabetes. There's no one or two. There's no salt diabetes.

No savor diabetes.

I've got cinnamon diabetes. I knew he was young when he passed. Then when I hit 45, I was like, Oh, man, I'm just getting started. I feel like life has so much more in front of me. Here's the other interesting thing. My brother likes to tell me this all the time because my brother's 14 years older than me, which makes Arman 63 now. He'll turn 64. Brian's got 50 in a couple of months. He said, No men in our family, on my mother's side or my dad's side, have lived past '65. Black men have the lowest life expectancy in these United States, et cetera. Notorius for not going to the doctor, taking care of themselves. So I'm thankful to have a woman in my life by the name of Ryan Michelle Bathay, who refuses to let me be dumb. You need to get that checked out. Something hurts. Going back to high school football, I look at my white friends. I was like, Man, why are you all Black and blue, dude? What's that bruise? He's like, Yeah, I don't know. And they'd be like, Are you okay? I'm like, Yeah, I'm fine. Something feels weird.

I'm chilling. You know what I'm saying? I go to the doctor. I try to take care of myself. You check out the prostate, prostate exams and all these sorts of things because I'm determined not to be a statistic or just because something has been the case for everybody else, doesn't mean that it has to be the case for you.

You have a good stubbornness. I do have a good stubbornness. Yeah, it can be helpful sometimes.

Absolutely.

That sounds like the story of your whole life. Just don't place me in this box. I'm doing something else.

Thank you, Lily Pat. I really do.

Someone else did a little research. How close were you with your dad before he died? That's my dude. Yeah, you guys had a great relationship.

Dude, the best. A lot of folks, our generation, that's not always the case. There can be some distance or whatnot. Men function as providers, primarily, and not necessarily as nurtureers. Not Sterlin Brown, man. This dude loved me unequivocally.

Look how fucking lovable you are. I appreciate that.

But he was that lovable, too. We would sit up Friday night and watch Cinemax. Friday after dark. Don't tell your mama we're watching.

You're going to see some titties? We're not going to talk about- We're not going to see a lot of titties. But then between you and me- I can also I appreciate your appreciation for the word, too.

I feel like it's gone by the way, side of the-Yeah. Thank you for bringing it back. It's sweet. It is sweet. It's soft. It's soft. There's something soft about it.

My father, too, on my weekends with him. You could watch whatever the hell you wanted.

And he would cry. We would watch Pritz's Honor, and he'd be flicked out because he thought Pritz just got shot and all this type of stuff.

And was he affection it?

He refused to have me not be affectionate. I remember one time, he's like, All right, man, give your daddy a kiss, because we would kiss. I go, Okay, dad. I hit him with the cheek. Are you too old to kiss your dad? I was like, No. So now I got a 10 and a 14-year-old, and I do the same thing.

Aren't you so glad he made you, especially now having lost him?

I have a friend of mine whose dad passed away a couple of years ago, lived into his 80s. And he said to me, he goes, Dude, I had my dad my whole life. I have no idea what he thought about me. That would be tough. I think the interesting thing is everybody's doing the best they know how to until they know how to do better. And it often takes us having kids sometimes in order to realize, Oh, he's just trying to figure this shit out. You know what I'm saying? Here's a question for you, and I wanted to ask you and Bell this at one point in time. I find it to be the most interesting thing, and I want to give the flip to it. The way that you guys have your children and share your family on social media, I have the utmost of respect for, right?

In that we don't. And that you don't. Okay, great.

I was talking to Bell one time, and she was watching Season 1 of Paradise, and she FaceTined me. And then I saw your daughters, and I was like, Oh, my God.

They're real. They're real.

They have real faces and everything. It's amazing. But my question to you is, talk to me about the thought process in terms of their safety, their anonymity, and how you reach that place, because I have a very specific take on it as well.

First and foremost, I don't care what anyone does. I literally, when I see other people, that's awesome. That's what they feel comfortable with. My thing is, number one is safety. I don't want you to know what my daughters look like. You can see them on the sidewalk. You know a lot about me and them. You could act as if you know us. Hey, Delta, I just was with your dad. That could be tricky for an eight-year-old to navigate someone who knows a lot about me easily or mom. Two, I've already put them in this crazy position where when they go to eat with their family, they're going to watch their mom and dad take pictures with people. That's unfair, in my opinion, but it came with a lot of great stuff, so I think it's a wash. But I don't want them to be famous. I want them to be anonymous and make mistakes and not be in tabloids because they were at a nightclub and everyone knows them. I want them to be able to fuck up and be completely anonymous. That's my goal. It's so funny. I must tell you this right now.

Go ahead. I just left. I raced here from having talked to my daughter's fifth-grade classroom. The teacher asked me, Ms. Brown, to come in and talk about Malala because they're studying her, and we interviewed her. I said, Okay. She said, You have an hour and a half. I said, Ms. Brown, I got to get out. Dude, I name dropped you intentionally manipulatively? I said, Okay, but I got to get out at 12: 00 because I'm interviewing Sterly K. Full name, Sterly K. Brown at 12: 30. She went, Oh, okay. Oh, you're interviewing? I said, Go ahead, let her rip. I was on the phone with her. She said, Well, I'm married. I'm married. I said, But did you see Paradise? She said, I watched Paradise. I said, And did you see the Buns? She said, I saw the Buns. I completely used you as my easiest excuse to get out of class. This is amazing. But at any rate, one of the questions was, do you let Delta be on the podcast? I'm like, yes, when it was audio, only she would. She would pop in and it was so fun and the listeners loved it, we loved it.

I said, But once we went to I don't. I had to weirdly just explain this to her whole class. Yeah, man. Anyways, tell me how you- This is interesting because I agree and understand exactly what you're saying.

It's interesting because you have two girls, I have two boys. Your children are obviously white. My children are Black. I feel like the more I put them on social, the safer they are.

Oh, that's interesting. A hundred %.

Sure. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

I was like, Any proximity that Black boys can have to some celebrity or access or whatnot.

Status, leverage.

I'm like, I'm trying to make sure that they make it home. That's really it.

Isn't that incredibly interesting? It really is.

It fascinates me. I remember I was going to ask Kristen about this one time. I was like, Oh, no, I'm coming to the cast. I can just talk to you about it.

It's so It's a different-Yeah.

That makes a ton of sense.

But anonymity is one of those things, too, because here's another one. You just mentioned something. If I'm out with Ryan and the boys, we have a policy of no pictures. The policy is because they deserve deserve to have a regular night out.

Yeah, it's their time.

Because Ryan and I have a certain amount of spotlight or whatnot, doesn't mean that they should receive less of us. If we go to an event where you specifically know you're taking pictures and everything, that's all another thing. If I'm at a soccer game, which I'll be going to right after this. I know.

I thought that was so cute.

If I'm at anything, I'd be like, Hey, guys, right now I'm just a dad, but I appreciate the love. You know what I'm saying? Most people are so sweet and so cool. Every once in a while, one out of a thousand, you'll be like, So you're not going to take the picture? You'll be Not right now. I'm not even trying to be mean about it.

Oh, my God. I'm going to be thinking about that for so long. That just subtle difference between two people who are very similar-In the same situation in many ways. In the exact same situation in so many ways, except one very specific way and how that man F. S. Is so wild.

Well, and heartbreaking, actually.

So illuminating.

When dad died at 10- Yes, sir. How fucked up did you get over that?

That's a good question. It took a lot of processing because was raised Christian and really with the belief that the hereafter is a better thing. There's something better waiting for him. He had a minute of suffering. I remember the day he passed away, this is February fifth, 1987. I wake up that morning and my mom is in the kitchen and she's on the phone with paramedics, 911. She says, Go to the bedroom and put some clothes on your dad. I was like, Put some clothes on your dad? I'm 10. What are we doing? That's his job. I don't need to see the monster out. He's laid up buck naked. He's wearing bikini draws and I'm trying to raise up over his feet. Oh my gosh. He could tell how uncomfortable I was. He was probably just as uncomfortable. He's like, Go get your mom. He's stiff. He can't move So I go back to the kitchen. I said, he asked for you. And she's like, boy, didn't I tell you to... You know what I'm saying? She's fraught, trying to get stuff done. So she goes, puts clothes on him. And the last time I saw him, I got a split level house.

So you come in the front door, you can go upstairs or downstairs. The paramedics come in, they got the girney, they get my dad out of the bedroom and they're taking him down the steps. And as they're taking him down the steps, my man just winks at me real quick. Like one wink. And that was the last time I ever saw him because they didn't want me to go to the hospital. They thought it might be too much. For the next few weeks, people are bringing food. And I'm so sorry. And I think when you're 10, what you want is to get back to some sense of normalcy as quickly as possible. It's weird to have people cry over you or extend too much because I think also being a boy/now you have to be a man, there's this idea that I got to keep together. I had never seen my mom cry until then. That's the first time I saw Arlene lose it. I was like, Well, everybody can't lose it. That was one of the predominant He had dominant thoughts in my head. I was like, No, everybody can't lose it. More than anything was figuring out, if he is in a better place, how much of a right do I have to miss him?

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's confusing. That's interesting. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's complicated.

I think I just said that for the first time.

If this is real, why are we all-Yeah, but he's in heaven.

Everybody should be good about it.

And I'll be rejoined. We'll all be rejoined. Exactly. I don't negate that.

I believe in life after life, et cetera. I don't know if it's Shirley Gates and everything, but I do believe that energy isn't created or destroyed. It just transmutes and becomes something else. At age 15, almost 16, I think, sophomore year of high school, I had this weird feeling of just, Man, I haven't heard my dad's name in the longest time. I one time had a lucid dream where I dreamt he had lived this whole life. Like an episode of Star Trek, where I went, What's the place in Star Trek where you can live out on next generation? Anyway.

You really did go to Stamper.

We're not nerdy enough in that.

The holiday. I had this whole lucid dream about my dad lived this whole life and got a chance to see his grandchildren and he passed away in his 80s and everything like that. I woke up and I was astonished that it was a dream. Yeah. That was close to when I was like, Man, I haven't heard Sterling Brown's name in a long time. I was like, Wait a minute. That's my name, too.

Exactly. Because you had been going by-Kelby.

Kelby. Kelby, the first 16 years.

Because Sterling was too many letters.

Sterling was too many letters? According to mom. That is what she said. It's like, Sterling is eight letters. Kelby is five letters. Hey, man, I'm going to shake you.

You really do the damn thing. I want to point something now. Yeah. My dream in life would be if I can be dying and look at my girls. That'll be the Hell Mary touch down. The fact that your dad was dying and his 10-year-old little boy was trying to put clothes on him because he loved him. What a fucking gift you gave him. I mean, that is the dream departure.

Yeah, man.

Yeah, a gift. That's fucking mega.

Thank you, man. Yeah. I appreciate that.

He did a good job. He made a son that was able to show up in that moment.

Yeah, he did his work. He was good. Yeah, that's fucking rad.

He's very special.

Thank you. How did Arlene support you all once he was out of the picture?

It's a great question. Because mom shortly retired afterwards. You have to understand her thinking. It contributes a lot to my thinking, all Although I think I've shifted it a little bit. Mom was a born-again Christian at age 40. I was born when she was 34. So from the time that I was six on, she would make me speak in tongues with her for 15 minutes a day. That's wild. I'd be like, I'm not sure what I'm saying. No, I'm talking to God.

It's great acting training, actually. They make you do shit like that in acting school.

Did you believe it when you were doing it?

So this is the thing, right? I think about this. I remember I was doing Hamlet one time and playing Claudius. He says, he has this line, he goes, My words fly up, my thoughts remain below. Words without thoughts, never to heaven go. What it made me think is, whatever these utterances that are coming out of my mouth, what is in my heart is is what is really most important. I would pick a point of focus. It's basically just meditation with utterance. Once you pick that point of focus and what it is that you wish to put out into the world, how you wish to show up so that you're responsive and not reactive, it just became my meditation practice. Interesting. Then it did feel very connected. At first, when I thought it was about the words, then it was just like, I don't know what's happening. But then it was about what's happening here and what's happening here. Yeah, that is very acting.

Yeah, it is. I think of all those insane things they make you Even also just getting over self-consciousness. Committing to speaking in tongues is a bleep of faith. It is. You're like, Here we go. I'm going to start talking gibberish. Let's see if mom calls bullshit.

She would bring other boys from the neighborhood and try to make them speak in tongues with me. I was like, This is my favorite. Because I know what's happening, and I know what's going on inside these Negroes' minds as well. Arlene is just like, Don't you feel good? They're like, Yes, ma'am.

Whatever you said. Oh, my God. Oh, that's great.

She retired shortly after because she believed the Holy spirit, God, would find her needs. There's social security from dad's passing. There's social security for her. Mine cuts off at 18 or something like that. But we just really lived beneath our means. My brother came back and helped for a little bit. My sister came back and helped because she's 12 years older. The slaunters. They showed up. The slaunters show up. Everybody did their part. This is how tight things were. My mom's senior year of high school, she didn't want me to have senioritis. She wanted me to finish strong because second semester, I was like, I got in in the school. What are we doing right now? She's like, If you get straight A's, second semester, I give you $1,000. I was like, Say less, homie.

Got you.

I bust out these A's or whatnot. Arlene Brown, as a woman of her word, lays that $1,000 on your boy. About a week later or so, she goes, Listen to me.

It'll last you four days in the Bay Area.

You got this cash and you totally earned it. But mommy has some bills that I have to take care of. Could I borrow some money from you? I said, You know what, mom? Just take it. She said, That's not what I said. No, take it. It's all good. That moment when I went to school, because Stanford was wild, was awesome. My wife and I have this conversation. We thought everybody was going to be like us, meaning the Black people at Stanford. And by us, I mean, okay, I filled out this FAFSA. I didn't got a whole lot of income to report. Help a brother out, Mr. Clinton, right? Yeah. My wife, her dad was like a chief informations officer for different Fortune 500 companies. They wound up retiring North Carolina and building a 14,000-square-foot home. Oh, my goodness. Okay. We're from the opposite side of the tracks. She thought everybody was going to be bougey, and I thought everybody was going to be hustless. Then we wound up hooking up with each other. It was a moment of like, I don't have the same thing to fall back on that other people do. So whatever it is I'm going to do, know, Brown, that you're going to have to figure it out.

Nothing's getting handed to me.

Nothing's getting handed.

Okay, but before we commit to San You also got recruited a little bit to play college football?

I recruited to a couple of D3 schools, Claremont, McKenna, out here. I wanted some place that was academically challenging, and I like the Claremont College's, Pomona, and all that type of stuff. But then it felt a little bit too much like my high school, and I think I wanted something a little bit different.

So it wasn't that tempting to try to pursue that?

Not enough for another four years of being a raisin in the sun. Do you know what I'm saying? I told my college counselor, I said, I either want sunshine because I'm from St. Louis and it gets cold, or I want Black people. I wound up getting both of them. But the thing about Stanford is they show up spring quarter and it's gorgeous, but the Bay, it gets cold. It gets real chilly. They bring you in May, June.

You're This is dark. It's just damp, right? For half the year, it's just you're wet.

I thought it was supposed to be sunny all the time.

Okay, so Stanford, you go for business and economics, and then you do an internship at the Fed. I'm fascinated way more than the acting. You're interning at the Federal Reserve. Where did you go for this internship? That's the thing.

I was hoping to work with the economist and everything, but I was really in the human resources department, and it was not at all what I wanted to be doing. I'd worked at I was in Purina before that. I was in an internship program called Inroads for minority students who wanted to do business and industry. So it was that track. Then anytime I did anything with any of these companies, I was like, This is so boring. There's no room for real creativity. And I was a math nerd. I did BC Calculus, AP Econ, et cetera. And I wasn't really even getting a chance to really use those skills. They didn't have a perfect internship for me. It felt like Arlene Brown deserved an ROI on her investment. And so the easiest way is to do something that is safe. But then as you get a little bit older, you realize you can be unhappy doing something that you don't want to do. So why not try and do something that actually excites you? Sure. And if you fail at that, then you can at least say, Well, at least I tried to do something that lights me up on the inside instead of what people think you should do.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking the pockets of your jeans before doing laundry, classic oversight. That mystery clunkiness In the dryer? Yeah. That was your lip balms final moments. And somehow, there's always one random receipt in there to dissolve into confetti. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential Savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. All state North America Insurance Co and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by HubSpot. Did you know that most businesses, Monica, only use 20% of their data?

That's like reading a book with most of the pages worn out.

Yeah, or paying for a coffee that's one-fifth full.

Yuck.

Point is, you miss a lot unless you use HubSpot. Their customer platform gives you access to the data you need to grow your business. The insights trapped in emails, call logs, and transcripts, all that unstructured data that makes all the difference. Because when you know more, you grow more. And when you get a full cup of coffee, you can do more, too. But I digress. Visit hubspot. Com today. Okay, now, when I'm researching people, generally, what I get fascinated in is, A, all the things that overlap that I can relate to, and then the things that I can't relate to become fascinations for me. You meet Ryan, freshman year. You've now been with her for 31 years.

Well, we've known each other for 31 years. As Shakespeare says, the course of true love did never run smooth. So there was together Together apart, together apart, together.

Because I don't know about you. I've not met a lot of kids, males from divorce, and in your case, through death, that don't have this where when your dad's not there, you do become by proxy partner, and you feel the sense of that responsibility. You do. It's a little bit burdensome.

To your mother.

To your mother. You grow up in a relationship that is a little more complex. You know you're a little more responsible for her emotional state than otherwise. Then the dad would be normally handling. Yes. For me, it was like I would fall in love, and I really loved a lot of people, but I just was like, I can't take on another one of these. I'm afraid. I just got out of this. I just got out of an 18-year relationship is a little bit what I felt like. So I'm shocked by the-Commitment-wise. You're like, I don't want to commit. Yeah, I'm just a little afraid. In fact, the second I realized I love the shit out of this girl, I could probably be with her forever, I'm like, Oh, fuck, I already had that. I How did you guys got out of that.

Our relationship was/is great. So my brother is the dude who takes on man of the house type stuff. But my mom and I have this deep friendship where we could talk about anything. Same, same, same. She's like, When I was out on the road with different bands, the way I kept myself safe, I kept my pistol in my purse.

This is before the Lord entered early.

Yeah, this is the way before the Lord entered early.

No tongues yet.

My mom was the born-again Christian who before that was like, What's your sign? And we'll give you your horoscope. She had both things. But I didn't date a lot. I think I was very shy. Began drinking, going into freshman year of high school, specifically for liquid courage. I could talk to anybody for anything, but as soon as I'm attracted to you, it's high. It's terrible.

It's unimaginable, isn't it? I was sweatinable. I can't imagine. I know. You're so goddamn charismatic.

That's so hilarious.

I would sweat. It was awful. Sex, 21.

My goodness. Yes.

So why? Well, because Ryan Michelle... I mean, not Ryan Michelle, Arlene. That's Freudian. Arlene would often tell me as a born-again Christian, she'd be walking around and she'd tell me all the joys of sex and how you don't be just that man that just does little pumps and everything. You got to do this and everything. Worship your lady. Then she'd go, But you know, for one occasion is a sin. And I was like, Yes, ma'am. I know. I remember one time, one of her best friends had daughters, and one daughter had body. I remember thinking to myself, and she would flirt with me. I'd hear in my mom's head, Fornication is a sin. It saved me because, oh, girl, I wound up having three kids before high school was done. It wasn't my trajectory. Her trajectory was hers. It wasn't my trajectory. But as I look back on it, I wish so much of my decision making wasn't based in fear. I don't mind holding out for someone that I have real feelings for because I do think that sex is as emotional or should be in its best form, emotional and physically gratifying. There should be some soul connection.

I've had sex where it's just enjoyable for enjoy. It's like pizza.

It's all good. But there's a spectacular pizza. There's levels to this game.

You know what I'm saying? As I raise these boys, I say, I want you to have life experience. I want you to enjoy yourself. I'm not hanging the same thing that was hung over my head in terms of fornication being a sin. I want you to be respectful. I want to make sure that you're looking out for your partner the same way that you hope that she's looking out for you, and that hopefully you have genuine feelings for this person, especially the first time. I hope that the first time is something you look on and it's...

Yeah. Positive feelings.

Yeah. But the commitment, did you suffer at all in the beginning?

So once Ryan, Michelle, and I really got in there, there is a strange tug of war, bro. I don't know if Belle and your mom experiences or if they were just like pees and a pop. Oh, yeah.

I want to hear more. I want more. Yeah, go ahead. You were young.

Yeah, you're her little boy, and now you're somebody else's man.

And nobody Nobody can be good enough for you. Nobody.

I think my mom fought the good fight.

I think she smelled this is going to be the woman that takes.

She kept a relationship with Ryan even once we broke up. They would talk to each other on the phone. I'd be like, Mama, why are you talking to her? We didn't move over here.

We're on to this one.

With Cisaline, thinking it's over there. We didn't move over. But they kept a relationship going. Then when we got back together, my mom was like, I knew.

She probably did immediately. Yeah, she rooted for it. What's the saying? It's the saying, it's like a son is a son until he takes a wife. A daughter is a daughter for life. This is an old-fashioned saying.

It is, but my wife feels that because you have daughters and you know you're going to be taken care of. These dudes are gone. I'm figuring out how to take care of myself.

My best friend in LA, I always talk with him because he's got two boys. I'm like, Dude, you better stay healthy. I can get as sick as I want.

These girls are going to take care of their dad. This is what I'm telling you. This is why we drink the water.

Yeah, your dudes are going to fucking drive by a couple of times and wave.

They're going to stick My wife, she grieved it a little bit. She says, When the boys have kids, she's not going to be invited into the room. Her mom is going to be invited into the room. A hundred %. You know what I'm saying?

Although you might raise the boys to break all this, and I might raise the girls that ditch their father. Maybe.

Again, to what you said earlier, I don't believe in trying to go along with what's been. It doesn't necessarily have to apply to me.

You can create your own situation.

You can create your own situation. My daughters-in-law, if I wind up having daughters-in-law, they may not marry, they may do something completely different. If I have them, they're going to love me. Yeah, exactly. You're going to make sure. My daughter is going to get an invitation.

My parents are dealing with this right now, too, because my brother's girlfriend is pregnant. Okay. And culturally, Indian parents are in there. Totally. They're there for months. Once the baby's born, my brother's girlfriend is not Indian. I can tell for my mom, she's not Indian, and it's her son, it's not me.

Totally.

I did not provide that for them. So I can see she wants so bad. They're letting her, but it's a tricky situation for her because she's like, Yeah, can I be in there? I want to be in there. That's my expectation. But it's different when it's your son. Very different. It's weird. It shouldn't be, though.

No. Shouldn't.

Shouldn't be, but it is.

Okay, if that doesn't work out, it's boring. We commit to acting. Then we go to NYU to Tisch for graduate school for acting. Now, my curiosity, there is you and Bella are there at the exact same time. Of course, her undergrad.

She's an undergrad, right.

But I think the same year, maybe '98?

Yeah, '98 to '01. Did she graduate '02?

She didn't graduate. She didn't graduate.

She was on Broadway before she graduated.

That's right. She's like, Can't stick around.

She's a Wunderkind. She's ridiculous.

She sure is. We have much different trajectories. That's why we're a good team. Why do graduate school? Were you a little bit afraid to jump right in and thought, You know what? Let me get to the place and have a little bit of a structure?

Yeah, I felt raw.

And your The pattern had been, when I tell you you got to do X, Y, and Z, you do X, Y, and Z, and you're on a sports team.

Somebody said, you should think about grad school because I think that you have a lot of talent. There's more potential that can be honed and have a bag of skills that you can take out into the world and make yourself as hireable as possible because it's such a transient occupation to begin with. But if you can go on stage, if you can do voiceover, if you can sing a little bit, then it gives you that many more tools that are marketable and can give you a I love that you're still playing it safe as you can within this thing that is basically a Hellmery Pass.

It's a crash.

Yeah, totally.

Okay, so you graduate from there in, I guess, 2000 with your MFA? 2000. 2001. And the first big thing is this play in 2002?

I went up doing this play by Bertolt Brecht called The Resistible Rise of Arturo Uy. It was directed by this dude, Simon McBerning. He's a Brit. He has a theater company called Theater Complicité. And he gets Al Pacino to play the main role in this. It's like a gangster story that Brecht wrote. The cast, it's Chaz Palmentari, Al Pacino, Charles Durning, Steve Buscemi, Paul Giamatti, Billy Crutup, Linda Eamonn, and Sterling K.

Brown.

I was the reader.

I was the reader for the production.

Which means tell people what the reader does.

The talent comes in and they audition, and you're the person that reads with the people who are to be a part of the show. John Goodman was in this thing. I had just torn my ACL, and I was doing Shakespeare in the Park. I was doing Twelfth Night in the Park. It was Zack Braff, it was Oliver Platt. It was a whole bunch of people. I had to lose my part because I tore my ACL. I got replaced by David Harbor.

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God. He didn't do a play with NL6 or something.

I haven't done a play with Harbor. You haven't? No. But his career did just fine after he finished being in the park. I had to leave the play, and then the casting director is like, Come be a reader for me. I'm a reader, and I'm listening to all these wonderful people come in and talk about the show. At the end of it, the director is like, Why don't you be a part of this thing? I was like, Are you serious? And he's like, Yeah, I've seen you read. I see how you interact with the town. I think you'd be a perfect fit. So get this. We had eight weeks of rehearsal for a four-week run. This is unheard of. It was like theater camp. I was just out of school, and I got a chance to watch all these people do improv.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. Your heroes are just on the same playing field doing shit that nobody else gets to see, and you get a front row seat, and I'm just popping popcorn and just going nuts. It was amazing.

Who was the most mind-blowing that you would find yourself telling Other people are like, Okay, fucking so and so is doing that.

I have an answer, and this is not downgrading anybody else because everybody else-Oh, I know what you're going to say. No, you don't. Crudo. No. Okay. But Billy is the shit.

Yeah, what a monster.

It's Goodman.

Yeah, I could see that.

Goodman's different.

Goodman will fuck you up.

Fuck your whole shit up. Because he can do impersonations, his commitment, and just level of depth. It can be serious and it can be fucking laugh out loud, hysterical.

The range.

He was special. Oh, I like that. Oh, that's so cool. Oh, I like that. How did Al Pacino and you interact? He was great. I've never met him. I only know the persona. It seems wild.

He loves to play chess, right? He's like, Come on, you want to play? We're sitting around, we're playing chess, and the whole time, he's talking shit. He's like, I wouldn't do that. I was like, You do your game, Al. I'll do mine. We played five times. I beat him four to one. I beat him four to one. Nice. Brown don't back up to nobody.

This was pointed out about you in an LA Times article where it's like you're very, very positive and glass half full, and yet you're very competitive. Good. Almost anything that you get challenged. Whatever. I love that you remember what the total of that was 24 years ago.

Four to one. He would also learn from watching him, and everybody else in this space as well, is as a young actor, sometimes you fool yourself into thinking that you have to have your shit figured out from jump, and you deny yourself a process of being messy before you find something. I was so messy. You got a chance to see it just layer and build and become this beautiful thing.

That is so encouraging. Incredibly. Do you think all these guys are just born. Like, Brando came out and he can do that?

No, they put in work. Yeah.

Did you have imposter syndrome?

Yeah. But if any dude had been confronting that his entire life, he's at the Country Day School where he could have imposter syndrome. He's at Stanford where he could have it. You've had some practice.

You didn't audition. I didn't audition.

He just offered you this thing. You're just this kid out of school. I'd be like, Oh, my.

What I looked at it, I didn't have much to do in the show, but I was part of the ensemble and I got a chance to move around. What I looked at it more as as just an instructional intensive. I'm going to absorb as much as I can from this possible experience and see how I can use it moving forward. And beyond just the talent part, and this is where Crudup comes in, specifically, and Giamatti and Buscemi, and pretty much the whole cast, I would say, when you are confident and secure in what you bring to the table, you have no desire to make other people feel small.

Yes, that's so true.

And that was massive because you'll come across egos and you really recognize that the egos are also masquerading their own insecurity. Oh, big time. Because they feel like there's something that they're not having that has to make them act out in a particular way. When you're around people that are like, Oh, no, my shit is tight. They just say, Hey, Brown, what you doing? Come on, let's play. Exactly. That was probably the biggest lesson out of anything.

That's a life lesson. That's everyone. Massive. How we're walking around life. Yeah.

You know where I saw that to the end degree is I did two different USO tours in Afghanistan, and I would be around the normal enlisted dudes, moving up to the rangers who are more specialized. But there is a ton of machismo among the normal ranks. Every time I got to go to the Special Forces range or hang with the Special Forces, all those dudes are so low-key. There's not one bragg. I get it. The difference between knowing you're the baddest mother in the world and hoping everyone thinks you are, it hits different.

It's huge. It's quiet, it's calm. Yes.

Now, I only have it to look at. I know how I would have felt in this situation, but I am so curious.

You're a genuinely curious person. This is why you guys are successful. You have genuine curiosity, and you put yourself in the position of trying to have profound empathy. I have to say, it is a wonderful model, Dixep, for a white man to do that. Because not a lot of... Not a lot of... I'm just saying I'm witnessing and feeling it, and I respect it, and I appreciate it.

Well, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Go for it. Between '02 and '16, you work, but you're guest-starring, Dude, you did every fucking show. You were on ER, you were on the NYPD, you were on anything that was in New York. It's hard to find a show, probably between '02 and '16 that you weren't in. Yeah. Were you a regular on Army Wives? Because that was six years.

I was a regular on Army Wives.

Yeah, six years. In that 14 years, you did get six years of stability. I did. But was it maddening to be so fucking close to safety and stability and just being like, Why aren't I? Did you ever get frustrated during that? Were the plays keeping you? How are you navigating that zone of being almost at the party?

I don't even know if I considered the party to be the end game. I think the end game for me was paying bills, doing the thing that I loved. That was the agreement that I had with God when I graduated from NYU. I was like, Look, we spent a lot of money on this degree. I know there's no guarantees on anything, but if I could just pay the bills doing this thing that gives me so much joy, I would be completely happy. And God met me in that place. Army Wives, specifically, I just gotten married. My wife made us buy this condo with an adjustable rate mortgage, and I was like, This shit don't feel right.

In New York?

No, it was in LA. Okay. It was in Oklahoma City. She's like, Well, you don't have to put money down to get a house. I was like, That's not what my mama told me.

This is just before the '08 explosion. This is just before the '08 explosion.

This is just before we bought an '08 house.

They would give a guy with a parrot on his shoulder a $2 million loan.

Anything. I would tell Ryan. I was like, Look, Ryan, I think we can afford this. She come in like, $100,150 over that. I'm like, Woman, you're not listening to me.

But she came for money. Yes, the background. So that's so different.

The background.

You guys understand that. See? I love that. When Army Wives came around, it was like, Okay, here's an opportunity to work, and I have a wife, and I have a condo. I remember her saying to me before, I tested for five pilots right before Army Wives, and I hadn't booked any of them. She goes, Well, maybe you should move back to New York because things aren't working out for you. I was like, What? I just tested for five pilots. What are you talking But she felt bad about asking me to live in LA and not have the same level of work because I was working in theater all the time. But that's when the show came around and I was like, It's a good part. It's lifetime. I know it's not the big deal, but I will have stability. I'll be able to provide. And that was big. And paid off student loans?

Yeah. Oh, there's nothing like the security of a TV show. Dude. It is so comforting.

Was it North Carolina? Come on.

Yeah, South.

South Carolina.

Charleston, South Carolina. This was an interesting time in marriage because we had the six-week rule Because she couldn't audition from Charleston because you're still going into the room like it wasn't on tape. Six weeks is too long. I want to say that to all married people. Don't do that. Two, three. And then somebody needs to get on a plane to go see each other.

Yeah, we've had the two-week rule since we met. It's a really solid role. It's a good role.

But so what I thought was, I'm winning. This is what I wanted. I wanted to be able to work at this thing. I wanted to be able to do different characters. Somebody will see it. There was never a matter in my mind of, will I not be successful. But successful just meant going from job to job.

Safety, I think, is success.

So you're talking about 2016. You talk about People versus OJ. That pilot season, I tested for a few pilots. I tested for the OJ pilot. I remember getting the script, and then I remember going to the bathroom and shaving my head. I didn't even think about it.

Well, can we back up? Go ahead. We both watched the OJ trial in real-time. Yeah, we did. I loved Darden. What were your feelings about Darden? Did not love him. You didn't love him? No. Tell me more.

I was on the other side. The thing about the trial, and I was at school at the time, I lived in this black dorm on campus, Ujma House, and it was half Black and half other. At the verdict in the TV lounge, you saw the Black people erupt with a fusion. You saw everybody else be like, What are you all talking about? Because you have to understand for us, it wasn't necessarily about his innocence or guilt. It It was about seeing the criminal justice system work for someone who looked like us.

Yes, and the doc did an incredible job. The Doc is so good on this. The Doc is fantastic. The two points I love from that Doc was people need to remember how quickly that trial followed Rodney King. So you saw the guiltiest motherfuckers in the world walk. You were like, Oh, yeah, guess what? How does that feel? This is what it feels like. There's a great lawyer in that Doc who said it was the fifth quarter that a lot of times he played football and sometimes your team lost, but sometimes there was a fifth quarter in the parking lot, and sometimes you could win the fifth quarter in the parking lot. And he said, This is the fifth. That was the fifth quarter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. I love all that, but I just thought Darden was a cool dude. I was like, This guy has been put in the worst position. They've clearly said, Who do we have that's Black that we can put in front of this jury?

Well, let's remind people who that character is for people who did not follow the trial.

Chris Darden was on the side of the prosecution against O. J. Simpson, fighting for Nicole Brown and Goldman. So it was Marsha Clarke and Chris Darden fighting against the dream team with Johnny Crock and all the high-powered lores. It was like, somebody was ready for camera, somebody was not. Darden looked fine. Marsh's perm was rough. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Poor Marsh.

Not ready for primetime players, right? Against these guys. It's interesting. Now, then getting a chance to do the show, it It was a matter of seeing things from a very different perspective. Having a profound level of empathy for someone that I did not have necessarily for before.

They put this Black dude in the worst situation. He has to turn against his community for this.

Our position is, why Why did you sign up for this? Why are you going to be on the wrong side, bro? Going back to the test and reading it, and then I jumped on YouTube and started looking at different clips of interviews and court footage, and then just shaved my head. I didn't even think about it. I was like, My hair will grow back. I shave my head all the time. I looked in the mirror and I was like, Yeah, this Going for the audition, and I remember the casting director telling me, You go into these auditions, there's times when you know you're in the pocket, and there's times when you know that you're not. I was like, Brown's in the pocket. She said, I think you're a better actor than he is a lawyer. Can you muddy it up a little bit? Oh, interesting. I said, Watch me work. Say less. I knew exactly what she meant and did it. You can see people lean forward.

You got a little clumsier, a little less.

Do the little thing, and then didn't hear anything for about four months.

Oh, God.

That's horrible. Thought it had gone away. Bro, I was on my IMDb Pro, and I was doing this thing where I was looking at all the things I had tested for and who had booked them. I was like, Oh, Bokeem got Fargo Season 2. That's cool. As I'm doing that, I got a phone call saying, They want you to screen test for OJ. I get the show. Now, there's a minute of imposter syndrome because I was like, One of these things is not like the others. I know who all you motherfuckers are. You all don't know who Brown is, but I I did have to audition for it. I did have to show that I was worthy of it.

You earned it.

I had a friend of mine who always tells me, You can't be a fan and in the game at the same time. So you have a moment of being like, Oh, man, I really enjoy your work. I appreciate what you bring to the table. Okay, let's play.

Exactly. Yes, I love that.

Again, I think you've been doing this your whole life. Maybe. I loved that show. Me too. Thank you like crazy. I didn't have any baggage with Darden. So I was like, This guy's crushing Darden. Did you ever meet him or hang with him? You look nervous. This is a good question.

I had one moment as I was preparing for it where I was trying to reach out and make contact with him. I found a number on Yelp, and I called the number, and it was clear to me when I called it, it was a cell phone. I thought it was just an office number, but it was a cell phone. So I hung up. And then he texted back, almost like a who it is type of thing. I was like, Hello, sir. My name is Sterling K. Brown. I've been tasked with portraying you in the upcoming Limited Series.

Which I'm sure you want nothing to do with.

You know what I'm saying? Would you be interested in meeting for coffee or something like that? Nothing. Yeah. You know what? As I I might watch him after the trial, I feel like there's still a level of shell shock- I'm sure. That exists in his life that he may have never fully been back.

You want to talk about a traumatic experience? Massively. Again, Now that you've played him, what that dude was shouldering. And then he doesn't win at the end of it all.

It's all for not.

In a case that seemed to everybody to be the easiest case ever to prosecute. This poor dude.

They got famous. They're lawyers. That's not their plan. That's not what they want. I feel like the dream team liked that. They were ready. They wanted to be superstars. The fact that they were the dream team in itself was that. But for the prosecution, they were not ready for what was coming.

But it's interesting because I did get a chance to meet Marsha because her and Paulson got pretty chummy with each other. This is so Hollywood. We were at a birthday party for Princess Lea, Carrie Fisher.

At that crazy house of hers on Laurel?

At the crazy house of hers. Marsha's there and we were shooting. I was like, I feel like I know you. She looks at me and she goes, I feel like I know you, too. Oh, that's rad. We hugged each other. As we left, she kissed me on the lips like this. That's all I needed.

You know what I'm saying? It was like, You told me everything I needed to know.

Interesting. I was saying this, too, because she was able to show up in a way that she no longer carried the trial with her. Whereas for Chris, I think it's different.

I can't help but feel very bad for that dude. I don't know his backstory, but I'm imagining he wasn't one of 20 Black lawyers, and he probably wasn't one of 20 Black lawyers in college.

It's a lonely road to help.

Yeah, lonely. Okay, so that's incredible. You win an Emmy for that. Did the bump of that have any role in This is Us, or was that happening simultaneously?

Simultaneously. 20th Century Fox television was the studio behind This is Us and People OJ. I got a chance to walk into and audition with what buzz. You're always trying to figure out, what is buzz? How do people know that people are about to do something or whatnot? It hasn't come out yet. But the people have been watching the dailies and seeing something come together, and they'd be like, You should make sure he auditions for this.

That's right. The system starts working for you.

The system starts working for you.

Yeah, it feels good, doesn't it? It's nice. It's scary because the whole system will stop working for you, too. You feel that even more than you felt the heat arrive. You feel the cold I'm still coming hard and fast. I'm still right. You're not for you. You're good. You're good. You'll never lose the heat. But I have had the heat, not heat, the heat. Okay, so quickly, I just want to say, you're already immediately debunking the claim I made with Marcelo Hernández just two weeks ago when I said, Only white folks are named Randall. My middle name is Randall. You played Randall. But then again, you were raised by white folks, so that makes sense. That fits, doesn't it? It makes sense.

Randall Cunningham, okay? That's the only other one I can call.

Randy Jackson. Yeah, he didn't go in by Randall. Now I want to own my shame and guilt, which is- It's a bit too much. Parenthood went off the air the same year they picked up This is Us. I may have even told you this when I run into you.

I think I've heard you like, I can't watch it.

It felt similar to me. I was like, Wait, you all just told us you don't want to do a drama. Then now you got this show. Then even Bigger Dagger on the Heart, it's an enormous hit. It was huge. I'm like, Shit. It was huge. They just green-lit Parenthood 2. 0, but now it's a hit. I never watched it. I never- That's quite all right. Even though I love Dan Fogh. I love his writing, and I should have watched it, but I just didn't because I was too hurt by NBC. I get that.

Dan is able to come up with a hook that still makes it a family drama, but has this time jumping element and this connective tissue. They're like, Oh, you're going to figure out at the end of these episode that these people are connected in ways that you didn't anticipate. So he's good at giving you the thing that we grew up on and the thing the Parenthood did so well. And also this extra element that brings people in.

I think he's a plot machine. Most people that write dialog as well as him are not plot machines. He somehow is both.

He's both. As we would read the episodes, we were like, This dude is a fucking He's a bad genius. He just keeps coming up with crazy shit. Now I get a chance to do a second show with him now. I was like, Oh, it's not just in this arena. Wherever you are, he can come up with some dope shit.

Stay tuned for more of I'm a chair expert, if you dare. My few questions about this show that I haven't seen, embarrassingly. Did you and Dan immediately vibe?

Immediately. I remember co-in for the audition or the meeting. The directors of our pilot, John Recker, Glenn Fercara, directed me in a movie called Whisky Tango, Fox Trot, that stars Tina Fé.

They also wrote Bad Santa, I want to add. They I also wrote Bad Santa. One of the best Christmas movies of all time.

It's fantastic. They had me in that family, and they knew my work from there. I had heat from these directors that I had just worked with. The studio, which is doing the show, 20th Century, was like, Oh, we're seeing this guy, what he's doing in OJ. And so I go into this meeting with Dan, and I'm carrying a football. It's like my Linus security blanket. I almost brought it today, but I was like, All right, Brown, you're almost 50. You're not going to carry the football everywhere? He always talks about it. He's like, Who is this guy with this fucking football? And he was like, Coming in here. I have never felt more comfortable because this is the first time with buzz. And more clarity. On the set of People versus OJ, producers would come up to me and they would say, Hey, man, you're cutting together really well. I say, Thanks, man. I'm glad you guys are enjoying the work. They come up to Sarah and I both. You guys are like the heart of the show. And I'm like, Oh, really? That's cool. I'm happy you're happy with the work. It took a moment for somebody to actually grab me by the shoulders and be like, No, dude, shit is popping.

This is a big deal. Don't miss it.

That's what I'm saying, because for a long time, my career, what you're talking about from '02 to '16 is showing up, doing a serviceable job, and going home. But people are looking you now and being like, No, bro, I don't think you get it.

There's no going home after this. It was different.

And even going in to Dan, and then I remember doing the audition, I would work on the lines at OJ while they were covering the defense table, and I'd be sitting next to Paulson, Paulson, I'm reading the script. I think it's the next job. And she's like, Go get that shit. And so I would be working on the lines, going to the audition. It was butter. And then I had people come up to me and be like, You sure you don't want to hold out for movies? And my whole thing right now, and I think you're going to vibe on this, I love watching these young people grow up, like these kids that I have in my house that have my DNA. The opportunity to get a chance to work, to be creatively fulfilled, to be compensated well, and go home at night and see them, I'm winning. Yeah.

I'm winning. Okay, so my question is, I guess, on the show, again, you got nominated.

I want an Emmy, I want a Golden Grove, I want a When it was ending, what feelings were you having? Dan always said it was going to be six seasons. I have six seasons of story. He had a beginning, middle, and end. He knew where he wanted the show to end. I was like, If that's the end of your vision, let's not force it beyond that. I was very happy. Then I'm always excited to do the next thing, especially the next thing that's a little scary. Wind up getting an opportunity to do American fiction. This is different for Brown. I haven't done this. I love to zig when people thinking you're going to Zack. I get a lot of offers for the only Black dude in the family in a White family. I'm like, I did it. I did it. I had fun with it. Let's see if we can do something different now. I live for the variety. I live for the challenge and the scary thing that's like, Can I figure this out? Then just getting in there and figuring it out.

Well, that was going to be the next thing I brought up was going to be American fiction. I saw that, and I just thought you were fucking so awesome in it. In such a wonderful geometry between you and Jeffrey, right? His energy versus your energy. Your personas were so different and complementary. Then you guys are dealing with a dad dying. What did you find in that movie that you were like, Oh, cool. Yeah, I can do this thing now.

Jeffrey was awesome. I've been a fan. His whole career People's Hernandez, Basquiat, whatnot. I got a chance to see him do Top Dog, Underdog at the public theater with him and Don Chetel. I was like, Oh, man, this is the shit that I want to do. You know what I'm saying? To be on set, to be with one of your idols. Again, you have a moment of fanning out, and then you're like, All right, we can't be a fan and in the game at the same time. Let's play ball. I knew my character functioned as a foil to his. He's trying to juggle all these things. He's trying to get a foothold with his writing career. He's trying to take care of mom. And my character is on a different path. I've been married for 20 years. Things have fallen apart. I'm gay. I'm finally coming out of the closet and trying to live my truth. And sometimes what I need out of life right now is not exactly he means from me. So it's fun. I often play the guy that has to hold it together. It's fun to be the dude that messes with the dude who has to hold it together.

Absolutely.

That was a lot of fun. But I think what I found out for me, I have a lot of gay people in my family and friends and people who had chosen for a period of time to live in the closet and then ultimately come out of the closet. There is no real fulfillment in life if you're not allowed to live your truth. I think what I was most curious about or most interested about is like, Okay, how will I show up in this space? Because I've had other characters before that have been offered me who are LGBTQ, and I didn't know if I would be able to do it. So I passed. What I refuse to do is half-ask something. The community that I represent needs to be able to see something on screen that they should be proud of and feels fully inhabited and not I've commented on. Do you know what I'm saying? It took me probably till I was 47, whenever I wound up doing the role, to be like, The humanity is what's most important to me.

What about, again, I would be guessing because it's not happened, other than when I get to work with occasionally some white trash folks, which they don't come around Hollywood all that much. But you got to do two movies with Chadwick, you're in Black Panther, then you're doing American fiction. What about working with Black folks? Is that extra rewarding in a way?

Yeah. I I got to say, this is interesting. It's fun on Black Panther, you go into the hair and makeup trailer and all hair and makeup is Black. If you have to get a haircut, you know shit's going to be right.

It's going to be a good fade.

It's going to be good. Other experiences you walk in is not a Black person in there, and they pull out a set of clippers that nobody has ever put towards your head before. Are you like, I guess we're going to wear a hat on this one. What I rejoiced into is I think I grew up in an era... There were a few ensemble things that would take place. I remember having this conversation with Chad, specifically, where for a long time it seemed for Black folks in Hollywood that there could be only one, that only one person was allowed to pop at a time. I've heard Eddie Murphy talk about this in his documentary, and you've heard other people talk about it. There's this thing, number one on the call sheet. It now seems like there can always be more. Don't get me wrong. Where we're allowed to play and you don't have to see if you get something that you took it away from me.

It's not finite resources, It's not a zero-sum game.

I think they tried to set it up like that to make us fight each other instead of support and champion each other. Women, too.

Agreed.

To be in a space right now, I don't want to mistake my own fortune and goodwill for everything is okay.

Sure.

Because I'm good, but things can be better for everybody. But I go into rooms and I see people, whether it was Chad before or Michael B or Brian Henry or Mahershala Ali, who was a year above me at NYU. I get a chance to see bras, and I was like, Oh, man, we're here. It feels good. It's cool to be here.

I was saying this the other day. I wonder if you connect to this. I feel like I grew up needing to be the exception, needing to be like, Oh, well, we don't like that group, but we like her. We'll let her in because we like her specifically. It was like a game of survival to just be the one that got through. Now I'm at an age where I'm like, That's fucked up. I have some guilt around that. Why didn't I embrace those other Indian people, other people, to let in? Because I was so like, I'm in, so I don't care about the rest of you. It's a mind fuck a little bit.

I think I knew that when it was happening even then, because you get things like, You're so eloquent and you're so articulate. What a joy. And they're saying it like, You haven't had that experience before, have you? Exactly. You know what I'm saying? I was like, I have this experience quite frequently. So there's that. And then even my school, in my CDS, I remember I won this award called the Headmasters Cup for the Student that best exemplifies the spirit of the school. But I also get that it's a good PR move for the school. I was like, So you guys get something, I get something, we'll call it a wash. We'll call it a win in that way. The feeling that I have more than anything right now, which I think is unique to being a person of color in a predominantly white space, Hollywood is, is that you know how many people are watching you and counting on you, and it's just different.

Yeah. What's he going to say about this?

It's just different. You have to, to a certain extent, embrace it. And then you have to remember, you just have to be yourself. But in being yourself, you're trying to bring the best part of yourselves in such a way that you don't set anybody back.

The pressure.

Please don't send us back, bro. You know what I'm saying? Please allow us to continue to move forward and champion you and be proud. I tell folks sometimes, I was like, I might mess up from time to time.

It'll bore everyone listening because I've already said this a million times. But when I first heard white privilege, I was like, Okay, I was brought home to a trailer. I had 80 stepdads. There was abuse everywhere. I'm not feeling the privilege. Then I had the wherewithal to go like, Oh, I was an addict for a decade in this town. I rode around with coke in my pocket. I drove drunk. I talked to cops in a way. I I 100% would have been in prison if I was Black. The variety of addict I was. I was buying crack downtown. Okay, I see that. Then the other privilege, this one I was always aware of because I had Black friends who popped, and I was like, It's so unfair. The fucking cards are stacked against you. You finally get to enjoy this elusive American dream. But immediately you're saddled with the political responsibility of representing the whole group. It just never ends. It's like, Can't you just be fucking a famous actor who's having fun? And that part I have always You are also asked to represent. I'm not asked to represent anybody. And that just feels like insult to injury.

It was going to be impossible for you to get here. And now you're here, you have to take on also all this other stuff that you might not have been politically minded. You might not have been anything. But that is now also on your plate.

It's all that shit. How do I explain it? It snuck up on me because I don't know if I was outwardly looking for things. People will talk about my wife and I as Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, which is this wonderful historical couple that went through the arts, but they were also very much activists, too. Because I was the first person to do a few things, to win a Golden Globe in this category, to win the SAG Award in this category. And so when you're the first, sometimes it's like, Oh, so you must be in this lineage of other firsts. You know what I mean? The Sydney's and Paul Robeson.

Well, you're a hero, whether you wanted to be a hero or not. Whether you wanted or not. You might just want to be an actor, but now you're a hero.

I suppose so.

I suppose An inspiration.

What do you call the handcuffs to feel good?

Golden handcuffs. Something like that?

Yeah.

I am honored to be a representative. Also-want some days off? Yeah.

I would want some days off, too.

The pressure is extra.

It just is. It's just different. But it's cool. I still have fun. Would I change anything? I don't think so. Even the amount of time that it took for me to get to this place, because if it had happened too young, I probably wouldn't have been able to handle it in the the same way that I'm able to handle it now. Have a little bit of perspective on things and appreciation for where you are in this current moment. Yeah, I dig it. Life is good, bro.

Yeah, it's okay if it's good. That's the other thing. You feel a little guilty if it's good, right?

No, I don't. Oh, you don't?

Good. Good. I have some weird from where I'm from guilt about. It's not supposed to be this good.

I've gone through enough shitty things that I think that like, no, I'm okay with this.

I got to go, go, go, go. Okay, let's talk Paradise. We had on last season.

That's my man.

I told him this, and I'll be straight up. I'm like, I'm always going to watch people's shit before I interview them. I don't know that I'm looking forward to this. I'm going to watch two episodes. I watch all six they gave me. I get Kristen in the mix. I'm now texting them like, You got to give me the rest of these. There's no way I can wait now until the season came out. We're calling- She FaceTime me with the girls. Oh, right. We got you directly. Yes.

We were like, Brown, give me this.

I was like, I I can't do anything. Dude, we love that.

It's so good. We love Paradise.

It's so good. Thank you so much.

And you're such a badass. Oh my God. I appreciate it. You're good to do all the things. You're thoughtful and sweet, and you're a good dad, and you're tough as a motherfucker. I mean, you get to do all the good stuff. I get to do a lot. I'm going to tell you something right now. As an appreciator of the male physique, I'd say a connoisseur. Come on. Grew up in the '80s watching Swartzenegger. How else could I be? The upper body is outstanding. I'm like, Fuck. But I can obtain that.

But we're about to talk about the posterior chain right now. I feel you.

I saw those bonds.

You see it coming. I saw those bonds. Chris Aaron watches the bonds. She goes, Whoa. I go, Oh, my fucking God. Now, listen. I'm caucozoitally challenged. All of my workout is my bonds. It's almost all I work out. I've just now gotten them convex instead of concrete. Oh, my Lord. The bonds, the sun's He's rising set.

This is what it is. My wife has a delightful posterior chain. My whole thing is I want to keep up. I want to keep up with the misses. Sometimes I just walk around and I was like, What does that like? Does your lower back feel more relaxed because you have so much girth and delightfulness?

If you were to fall out of a tall building, would you prefer to land on that? You know what I'm saying?

She's like, Is your phone... Just like that, right? We got the Peloton thread. You crank that joint up to 15 or whatnot. What a couple you two are. Sort of do the thing. We're just trying to...

Yeah. Well, congrats. Thank you. Congrats. Namaste. Yeah.

Thank you very much. Being on the brink of 50, having this thing, I finished shooting season 2, go to play basketball with my son's basketball coach, lighten up these high school kids, et cetera. We're going to make a move to go left. And then it felt like somebody stomped on the back of my foot with a cleat. I said, Who stepped on my foot? And they're like, What are you talking I was like, No, don't play games. Just tell me who stepped on my foot and apologizing would be cool. And they're like, Black man, nobody stepped on your foot. And that's when I knew. I was like, Kobe. I tried to stand up and I couldn't. I just scooched myself Off the court, finished watching the game because I wanted my team to win, and they did. I said, Does anybody have any crutches? Then just crutch my way to the car and drove to the emergency room.

Did you have surgery? I didn't have to have surgery. Yeah, our friend Charlie did this one.

Because it went like that. If it goes like that, you have to have surgery. You have to get the thing. But mine just went like that.

Hyperseparation. But it is humbling. It's depressing. Clearly, you work out like I do, right? It is the last thing that would go from my routine for my mental health. I would ditch everything, even AA, before I would ditch this. Really? Yes.

Let's not do that. Just got to throw that out there. I think that one's more important. But just wanted to say that.

Did it mess with you?

No, bro, it's terrible.

You're approaching 50. So we know it's a limited period where we're going to be able to do what we're doing.

It does feel different in terms of like, Oh, does this mean I have to give things up that have given me joy throughout my life? I think the short answer is yes. Not in totality, but you have to amend. You have to shift. You don't see 90-year-old people dunking. There's the atrophy of not using the leg, going around on this knee scooter, trying to have the most fun I can, but still just being like, Oh, man. In my mind, I am a beast. I go after everything 179%. To not be able to attack life for a period of time is tough. To feel vulnerable to have to ask for help. Yes.

Right? Maybe that's a gift.

That's part of the lesson.

Yeah, part of the lesson.

But I'm telling you, when you put the geriatric bench in the shower that has the suction cup bottom so you don't slip, you're like, Oh, we're in a different place in life now.

You know Ryan's not catching a glimpse of that and being like, Oh, maybe I got to make time for you. No. We don't know. It's nothing sexy about- We don't know what her kink is. Well, we did do a kink episode, so anything's possible.

I will say this. She'll hate me saying this, but this is true. We have different drives, but even the bird who is Ryan Michelle Bathay. I told her, I said, You don't have to worry about knocking boots for the foreseeable future. I'm taking a break. I'm tapping out. But once a month, she's like, No, you're not. Good for her. I say good for her, too, because I didn't even I didn't think it was going to happen. I was like, That was fun.

Okay. See?

That's that level of intimacy you were talking about earlier.

There you go.

It's important. Once a month, she's like, No, we're going to do it.

Okay, so season two. Just to remind people. Season 2. Just to remind people, so Season 1, you are a secret service agent. Correct. Marzen is a very flawed President. You guys are in this Paradise bunker. There has been an enormous tsunami, followed by maybe some nuclear fallout. Now, the only part that drove me fucking nuts, we I might have sent you hate messages during this.

Possibly, what is it?

The fact that your wife was like, No, I'm still going to Atlanta. I'm like, No, this is the only part of this show. I'm like, Absolutely not. Kristen tells me, I'm going to Atlanta and I know the world's one. I'm like, Guess what? You're going not by choice now. Yeah.

Even my wife says, I think you could have been a bit stronger.

I was impriving dialog for you that I thought might have gotten the wife on the plane with you.

But if you're married to a sister, you don't tell them nothing. My wife doesn't listen to me anyway, so it seemed like art imitating life. I was like, Look, I'm trying to tell you something. She's like, No, I'll be fine. I'm like, Okay, that sounds right.

Hence your podcast. We don't always agree. There you go.

There's an episode in season one. I mean, we all know it. The big world. Well, in case it's a spoiler.

Episode 107. Correct. It's the penultimate.

I think about that episode at random, and that's one of the scariest episodes of television that I've ever seen.

Yeah, it was a good one.

So good and a little too potentially real. So much about it is There are things...

After the show came out, did you remember seeing all these articles about people having bunkers in their home and stuff and people who are actually doing this stuff? They're planning on this.

Your wife is in this camp a little bit. Yeah. Your house had a basement originally, but it was shut down because the boys weren't to be down there. But then wifey wanted to open that motherfucker back up and stock it.

We have a bunker. We have a mid-century modern house. A lot of the houses that were built in Ladar right after World War II. I think a lot of folks were thinking like, You what? Just in case. We have a little bunker, 40 people comfortably or what have you. But we've had it closed up because we don't want little boys running down there and getting trapped. But I think we're about to open that joint back up.

Yeah, not a bad time. You're just I stock.

Things feel a little tenuous right now. Yeah.

Okay, so Season 2, I watched the first episode of Season 2 last night. Yeah. I was about to ruin my whole sleep schedule and binge more, but I was like, no Bell's going to... Then I'm going to be watching all these all over again. I got you. But boy, what he does so well, he's got a lot of gifts. But one of his gifts is he can introduce you to a character and get you to care about that character in record time. It's insane the math of what he does. But we meet Shalene Woodley. When do you want to tell me? I don't want to- Annie.

We meet her in Graceland, and we see the events from season one where the President is giving his speech to the world, to America at large, and letting them know that you have a limited amount of time. You may want to spend time with people that you love. And you start to see the fallout of things encroaching on Graceland. And so it's like, how did the people who didn't have time and planning and resources, how did they deal with this situation?

Yes, it's a very cool way to catch us up to what has been happening outside of that bunker. And she's got a very fascinating storyline in that she was a doctor, but she couldn't hang, and she ends up being a tour director at Graceland. That's correct. And she's waiting out this crazy natural disaster at Grace Land with a security guard. It's just incredibly touching.

Oh, yeah. It is.

That's how I got to. Yeah, it's great. There's some really beautiful scenes between her and the security guard. Yeah. Then the marauders show up and you're panicked. That is correct. Some marauders.

Do we have good people that we're encountering? Do we have benign people that we're encountering? Are the most selfish parts of humanity being augmented or the most selfless parts of humanity? You don't know. I think that's part of the mystery of the world at large. Are people going to show up as their best selves or as the people that just want to take it?

They address that, and I love the explanation of it. Then I'll add that you're getting to see what it caused is this insane winter. They're in Memphis in summer, and it's snowing and frigid and cold. You're getting your cake and eating it, too, in this show because now it's like these post-apocalyptic shows we're used to, and some of the tropes we're used to, but then they're getting on a spawn on their head. It's groovy.

Are there twists? Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, shit, girl. That first season has so many twists.

The biggest twist of this season, I can only hint at, but if you've seen the trailer, Sinatra played Marvelous Mostly by Julianne Nicholson.

So good.

I love Julianne Nicholson. She's the shit. She says in the trailer, she says, It was never just about the bunker. She means that in a quite literal way. What we find out the bunker is probably the most intriguing part of season 2, in addendum to whether or not Xavier finds his wife. Because I actually just had season 3 pitched to me, Which will be our final season. It's always been conceived of as three seasons. He's always doing this.

Keep them wanting more.

But in everything else in a movie or play, you already know the beginning, middle, and end. And so you get a chance to drive the plot towards something.

Yes, I respect it.

I respect it a great deal. My crew, I want to say this, just like, maybe we can get 10 episodes instead of 8 in future shows that I do because crews are suffering. The amount of time that they get to spend at work is different when you go from 22 to 18 to 8. You know what I'm saying? So I want my people to eat.

Yeah, you got to get on three shows to make up for what it was to be on one show.

I was watching on whatever streamer, I was watching a season of soap It was like 32 episodes in the season. You know what I'm saying? I was like, I didn't know that was legal.

Exactly. They started production on Jan 1, and they ended up-There's no-December 24th. Exactly.

Let's go back to work.

Do you send Does it sense that you have this creative partnership with him that'll just go on and on?

Yeah. He's so incredibly imaginative. Fogerman turns 50 in February. I turned 50 in April. We're the same age. He's got a kid. I got kids, and we're in interesting places in our lives, and we just get each other. We laugh at the same sorts of things. I'll have him introduce me and stuff, and he'll have me do stuff. And it just fits in an incredibly lovely way. I think he has a desire to keep recreating himself and what people expect from him as well. And that's what also makes for such a delightful creative partnership.

Yeah. You both want to try something new every time. Absolutely. Yeah, that's the dream. Well, Sterling, this has been It's delightful. Long time coming. I've been pestering you. You're one of the few people- I know. We've been at you. When I bump into you, I'm always like, Let's go, dude.

It's been a long time coming. I'm happy that we finally made it happen. You guys are awesome. I see why you got the nomination at the Gloves. I'm sorry it didn't go your way, but it's always Next year. You know what I'm saying? I told Rob, I said, That was us. We're going to come for you if we possibly can. But I love giving flowers in real-time because I've done enough things, and I see people who do their research and et cetera. But you do a deep dive, Randall. You do a deep dive.

Don't you wipe me up here at the end? Last question. Go ahead. Do you and Ryan play spades?

Come on, Brian.

Because you want to get competitive, motherfucker.

I'm a card-carrying African-American. You want to play some spades. You You play spades?

You play spades? Oh, no, no, no, no.

Listen, does your wife play?

I'm going to warn you.

Do you guys play as a couple?

Yes. I'm going to warn you. Had Metta World peace on.

Yeah.

He plays in Wade Spades, the tournament. He said, You think you can I said, Yeah, I think we can play. We had he and his wife over, and we fucking destroyed them. So you better come short.

I'll come. My wife is terrible. That's the best part is playing with wives is the greatest. She's terrible. But I think Belle is probably better. But there's also a game I want you to look up. It's called Big Whist.

Yeah, that's the next- Yeah, we've heard about that.

Can you teach us? I could teach you.

Yeah, I'll teach you. Big Whiz is like... I know about it. It's a step above. But no, we'll come over, we'll play. I dig. Can't wait. All right, be well.

Right on, man.

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

Happy Lunar New Year.

Oh, I was waiting for you to...

I knew you were waiting for me to see it.

Wish me well on this Lunar New Year.

It's a big day.

For astrologists?

It's the year of the horse starts today. So this is really...

Oh, I almost did it. Here. Here. This episode is a horse. How good you're giggling this time. You were really nervous last time when you did it. You thought I was having some neurological Well, it really came out of nowhere.

It did. If you remember. It is the Lunar New Year, which is the beginning, the real beginning of the year. So scratch what's been happening. Okay.

So reset all your Yes.

And there's a lot to do today.

Tell me, there's homework that comes along with the Year of the Horses?

Yes. You're supposed to wear red.

Fuck. Okay.

I forgot to text you. Back of my shoes got a-Yeah, that counts.

Just a touch of red.

As long as... Is there any red in your underwear?

My panties are red.

That's a lot. That counts.

I don't know if that's true, but I do have red panties in my collection.

I'm wearing red panties, red socks, and a red sweater. Okay.

That's not orange-ish.

No, it's red. It's just red. Yeah. Okay.

It's like a tomato. Okay, great. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.

No, you're not going crazy. But it's red. I'm also about to start my period. I hope it comes today because then it's red from the inside.

Yes. Wait, red is always associated with the horse or just this year?

We don't know. So I don't know too much about the origin, the backstory, the background, but I do have the rules.

Okay, hit me with the rules.

Okay, so wear red. You blow salt in the front door. That's supposed to clean last year away. Okay. And then you blow cinnamon in.

What if you loved last year and you don't want to dust it away?

No, you still need- Refresh. Refresh, growth, renewal. Last year, the snake was about shedding.

Have you done something with your hair?

No, but that reminds me of a huge rule. You're not allowed to wash your hair today or cut it. Okay. Did you already cut your hair today?

No, I think last night I did a little snip.

Okay, don't cut it today. Okay.

It's good you said something because although I did cut two of my toenails, is that?

Yeah, we're really not supposed to do any cutting today, but it's okay. We don't have to count. Okay.

Blow the salt.

Okay. I'm going to read from two different sources. One is my friend Rachel. She knows about all this stuff. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, you blow salt in the entryway and say, Thank you for the lessons of the past year. They helped me grow and expand, and I release what no longer aligns. I make space for what is meant for me.

Oh, great.

Have you done the salt blowing yet? Not yet. I'm going to do it tonight. Okay. Blow cinnamon in and say, I welcome in this blessed new year with abundance.

Your brand new house, which you've been waiting six years to move to, is going to be covered with spilled, boiled milk and salt all over the ground.

And cinnamon. I did say, I was like, Oh, no. And then it gets on the floor and she was like, I mean, I guess you could do it outside. I was like, No, no. I am going to do this properly.

Lay a towel down. This is what I do when I cut my hair in the bathroom. Just lay a big towel out in the foyer and then blow salt everywhere. Then pick this towel up and shake it out outside.

I wonder if you're allowed. That could undo it?

Yeah. You got to live with it?

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Then don't use scissors or knives. I mean, I guess you can use knives. I use scissors already today.

What'd you use? On my toenails. I was in the gym and I didn't have any nail clippers, so I had to use my hair cutting shears that I keep in my gym, which is unique.

It's okay. I think we're going to say that one's okay. Just try not to do any more. Okay. Don't sweep or take out the trash. Okay?

I mean, blessings to everyone. Do they not feel insanely arbitrary?

No, there's reasons. It's like the milk. We just don't know. Okay, don't wash your hair. This is a big one. Okay, don't wash your hair or cut your hair. It's because there's luck and stuff in hair. That's what Rachel said. And I was like, That makes sense.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. There's luck in your hair.

I'm very lucky. Yeah. And I have a lot of hair. You do. Who knew those were connected? But now I know.

I have very little hair, which must mean I'm out of luck. No. And it's getting diminished every day.

You are a very lucky person. I am. Don't eat porridge or congee. We're not going to count O'Mian.

Porridge is Omeya. You have done a lot. I blew it. My lunar year is not good.

No, don't say that.

Okay, but I've done virtually all the things wrong. So I didn't blow salt. I did cut my toenails. I use scissors. I took out the trash this morning. I ate porridge.

You took out the trash. Okay, just don't wash your hair.

That's going to be the biggest one. Okay, I washed it yesterday, so I'm sure I'll make it through today without.

It says, Don't wear all black. It's okay. You're not wearing all black or all white.

Don't be over 6'2.

I know. I sent this morning to the group, Happy Lunar New Year, Year of the Horse. Here we go. And then Erica sent this list. And yeah, Laura and Amy were like, I've already done all those things. Okay, don't wake up early. How early did you wake up?

Early, because we're back to school today. 6: 15?

But is that earlier than normal or normal?

It's on the early side. Yeah, boy. Don't nap. At this point, I should just list everything I've done today, and it'll virtually be the null hypothesis of this list.

Don't nap during the day. Haven't yet. Okay, so don't do that. Don't break anything. You broke something.

No, I didn't. But Now, as soon as you tell someone not to break something, they're going to break something. I know.

I'm worried about that, too. I'm worried about this one as well. I'm also worried about this one, Don't Cry.

Oh, I already teared up this morning watching the pilot of that show.

Oh, no. But did you have spillage? You said it didn't spill over.

No, I had some tears. Okay.

Don't eat, quote, bitter foods.

I haven't done that, but I am taking Delti to lunch after this. Just don't order anything bitter. Okay.

And don't wash your clothes. I can handle that. Now, don't wash your clothes is interesting because that one crosses over with my parents' superstition about on New Year's Day, you can't do laundry. So that's interesting.

What are the ones from New Year's Day?

Don't eat me.

On New Year's?

On New Year's Day. For you guys. Okay, New Year's Day. Don't wash clothes. Don't spend money. Eat collard greens and black IP. Well, mainly black-eye peas. That's like, if you don't. My mom was just forcing it into our mouths.

I had a thought about your mom just yesterday.

What did you think?

I was thinking she, too, was a brown girl that grew up in Savannah, Georgia. Yeah. Did she have a white boy? Did she love white boys?

No.

She didn't.

Well, that I know.

Have you ever asked her?

No. She doesn't like talking about that thing.

I'd like to talk to her about this.

No, I'm kidding. Did you like White Boys, Nervy? No, she probably knew that that wasn't an option for her.

I'm sure there's a lot of White Boys that are loved to-No, not because of her.

For marriage. Exactly. She probably knew that she was going to need to marry an Indian man. Yeah.

I got real curious. I think it was when I walked through your house, there's a picture of her when she's young.

Yeah, she's 17. It's a beautiful picture of her.

Yeah. So I think I was just thinking, yeah, she was in high school with a bunch of white dudes. Did she have crushes on white dudes, or did she... I'm not even think about it because I know I got to marry an Indian. I don't know. There's a lot there. Did she ever have a boyfriend before your death?

I don't think so.

You don't know.

I don't know. But I think I would know. I would know if she had.

Because she would have told you?

I think it would have come up. It would have come up. They don't like talking about their past.

Their love life?

Did your dad have a girlfriend before her? I've never heard about anyone's love life before my parents.

Are you not curious if your dad had a girlfriend ever before your mom or your mom had a boyfriend?

I just think it was a different time and a different type of thing. I don't think they did it. Well, my mom, a little different because she was here. But I think in India, no. At that time, they weren't having girlfriends and stuff. They were in school, playing cricket, and then trying to get to America. They lived in a village.

Yeah. One of the screen savers now on Apple TV is of Kerala, and it's unbelievable. It's a tea plantations on the side of mountains, and I'm like, Fuck.

They have a lot of tea there. I know. I don't think I'll ever know. I just don't think it's- You're never going to ask. They don't I want to talk about that, Dax.

Can I ask them independently? Not in front of each other.

That might be awkward. If it comes up very naturally, don't put either of them on the spot. If you're going to put someone on the spot, it better be my dad.

Yeah, I'll get a beer in him. He's going to say- Let's go for a walk, a show. Can I get a couple of beers in him? And I'll be drinking a NA.

You're going to trick him.

I'm going to trick him. I'm going to put it in a real beer bottle. Oh, no. Because it'll be a full trick the Year of the Horse. Oh, also, I think I know the other reason I was thinking about it.

Okay.

Because of our really wonderful guests, and if people didn't listen to this episode, I think they should. I think it's one of these very special episodes. But the head of the Kinsey Institute. And he was talking about the success rate of arranged marriages. Yes. And not just the success rate, because I think that could be misleading. They stay together. But it's also sexual fulfillment, attraction. All those track as high as any other marriage on average. So, yeah, maybe that also got me real curious about your parents.

Yeah. I think they just both knew they were going to marry something semi-arranged. Probably my dad definitely thought he would have an arranged marriage.

Yeah, but young men find ways. I hate to say they find ways.

I don't need to know about it.

But I'll- Okay. So don't tell you when I find No, tell me. Would you want to know if your dad had a sweetheart?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if any of them did, I guess.

I'd like to know the whole story.

My mom is a really nice good girl.

She's not such a good girl. She's sitting at home right now watching naughty YouTube videos of divorce trials where people poop on bed. She's got a freak side.

Listen, over time, but when she was young, she did exactly what she was supposed to do. She did everything my grandparents wanted her to do. She checked off all. No, I don't think she was... I don't think she had her light on for that.

Yeah. Vacancy sign?

Her open for business sign.

Yeah, she had no vacancy.

So Oh, yeah. I mean, when my mom and dad met, she was probably 22, 21. That's young. Yeah.

But your dad was 26 or seven?

Yeah, he's seven years older than her.

28.

Maybe they were. Let me... I will ask her that. Okay. Say, Stop talking about me.

Say Dax is going to hit you separately with some follow-up questions.

If he calls you, don't pick up. Anywho. What were we... Oh, yeah. You're the horse.

We have such opposite moms is what it is. I mean, it's crazy because my mom's here right now. Yeah. She's been here for a week. I think I know every single thing.

Yeah, it's nice.

Well, each Which one has its pros and cons. Everything has trade offs.

Sure. I think part of it for me is double whammy culture. It's like Indian culture and Southern culture. There's both things don't lend itself to that.

Yeah. And we were definitely asymmetric in what my mom told us. I didn't have any other friends whose mom told me.

Right. Yeah. Like, your mom is probably on one end of the spectrum, and my mom is probably on the very opposite end. Honestly, yeah.

I think that's what I'm saying. I think we had literally opposite in that regard. That's interesting. Did we finish all the Year of the Horse stuff? No, there's more, I think. Do you read stuff on Instagram and it alleviates stuff? And granted, I recognize it probably figured me out, and it's giving me stuff that helps alleviate. But one thing that was very viral for the last few months is that men who disobey traffic rules make better husbands. Have you seen this?

Oh, my God. All of these are so dumb.

I know. It's exciting to study.

What did it say?

That they're more creative by nature and they keep things more novel and interesting and fun. Of course, every guy who drives like an idiot has been forwarding this.

It's very, very viral.

That one, of course, I loved. Then when I saw that, this made me feel so good. It was like, researchers say couples who don't celebrate Valentine's Day are happier. I was like, Oh.

Oh, I think I saw that.

Did you see that? I was like, Oh, Thank God.

I mean, who is doing these studies? I don't know. These aren't true. Well, we don't know. That's not true. Well- There could easily be a study. We're poking holes in huge studies. We're not going to poke holes in this Instagram quote study.

I'm only saying we have the head of the Kinsey Institute, and it's tons of studies like that exist.

I know. It's just so individual. It doesn't make sense. If you guys celebrated Valentine's Day, it's not going to make it worse.

No, but it's just It's comforting to know that people who don't celebrate report higher status.

Also, who are they asking? The man who doesn't want to be going to the restaurant or whatever?

I mean, that's the thing that keeps me from, quote, celebrating. It's like, it's the worst day in the year to try to go out to a restaurant or go get flowers or anything. It's hard. It's like it just makes anything that would be normally enjoyable, really unenjoyable. It is.

But you don't have to go out. You can just celebrate by saying Happy Valentine's Day or giving a card?

What happens for better or worse is my girls are my Valentines. Yeah. And so I went all out. Oh, what did you guys do? For my girls. All I'll say is that someone had a less than exciting Valentine's Day versus their anticipation. So I know that my daughter loves floaties for the pool. So I got heart-shaped floaties and inflated them and put them in the pool. I made each of them handmade cards where I really drew pictures, and then I wrote really- That's so cute. How I felt about them. So I put several hours into my Valentine's on Saturday.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. And then my mom's in town. Yes. She's been in my Valentine for 51 years. So it just it really becomes a bandwidth. All my resources went to the little ones, and I definitely neglected my mom and Kristin. But I think from Kristin and my mom's point of view, they saw that I was spending a lot of my energy on my other two Valentines- For Kristin, that is the Valentine's gift. I hope so.

I think so. Yes, I think so, too. Jess and I celebrate a Valentine's Day together.

Tell me, what did you do? Did you dare go to a restaurant?

We did. And? Because Houston's on Saturday has chili. Only on Saturday. It's really good. And his pig wanted it. And at first he was like, Oh, God. It's Valentine's Day. The wine man. I mean, yeah. And he said, We're going to get it. Happy wife, happy life.

So we went. So my mom was in town, and I said, yesterday, I took her to breakfast the day before, and then last night, took her to dinner at Capitol Grill. And she said, You know what I really haven't had in a while is Houston's. And I go, Yeah, hon. I said, Yeah.

Oh, God.

I said, Yeah, mom, I don't go to Houston's anymore. I can't wait an hour. I mean, The food for them, and they deserve it. The food is so fucking good. Did you have the chili? Was it good?

Yeah, it's so good.

Is it? It's so good. I know that you were going there on Sundays in the past because they had grilled cheese and soup.

That's right. That's their special on Sunday, but their special on Saturday is chili.

Do they have a special every day or just our guy? Or just the weekend?

They have a special soup every day. Okay. So the chili is the soup on Saturday. The tomato soup is the... Now, I had gone the weekend before to get the chili. Okay. And I got there at 6: 00 or was seated at 6: 00, and it was sold out.

Oh, fuck.

So I waited the whole week, and then we went. We went at 1: 30, 2: 00. Good time. And it wasn't sold out, so I got to have it. Okay, great. And then we went to Highland Park. All right. It was in search of a plant. I'm looking for a plant. For my house. Home, yeah. Yeah. And this place was recommended. We go there. It was closed, but we went to some other cute... We bopped around, and it's just so fun to bop around places you're not normally bopping.

Yes, it slows time It does, and it feels like you're on vacation in your own city.

And so we did that. And then he said he saw a billboard with Jamie Lee Curtis on it.

Okay.

A reminder, Jess is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said, Oh, Jamie Lee Curtis. She's so... He said, She's so hot. I was like, Oh. And he was like, In true lies. And I said, Oh, I've never seen that. And he was like, Oh, yes, she's so hot in it. And I was like, Oh, okay. Well, I want to watch that. So when our night was over, I started True Lies. Great movie. Oh, it was loving it. I didn't finish it yet. James Cameron. Exactly.

So I can't lose.

Yeah. And I was really enjoying it. And I will say for a lot of it, I was like, What is Jess talking about?

Because she plays a nerdy housewife until she finds out her husband is a spy, and then she locks in the spy vibe.

Exactly. And there's one scene- Then you see her boobs.

She gets her boobs involved.

Yeah, that's what he said. He was like, I just liked her boobs and her hair. And I said, Oh, when she put water in her hair.

Yeah, I think she slicked it back.

Yeah, with water. There it is.

She's lifting them up. We all remember it.

We have a picture of it. We have a picture of it.

We have a nice picture of her tugging them up.

Maybe we could get a picture of her before she turns because I'm watching and I'm like, Oh, this boy is so gay.

He doesn't know. Yes, she's got a guy's haircut and Sally Jessie Raphael's glasses on.

She's in a lot of clothes. She's still pretty. Her face is still pretty.

But she's not doing herself a ton of favors with her style.

And it's meant, it's clearly meant to be that way because it's supposed to be a turn.

It's virtually the trope of the girl who's not pretty until she takes her glasses off. Exactly. The original she's on that. And then the question is, does she ever see that? Remember, that was my riddle.

That's right.

How does she know? Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Anyway, so that was interesting because I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Did you put your glasses on when you watched TV? No. Never.

Actually, we were watching... I was watching a show with Jess and Anna where there was a big part of the show, Heated Rivalry. Very popular show. A lot of that show was via text. They had to play roles and read them out loud because- Oh, that's nice of them. It was nice of them because I couldn't read them. I guess that is all the things for Year of the Horse.

Okay, great. Well, you're doing... Sounds like you're acing it.

So far, so good. I haven't cried yet.

I just want to point out now that the lunar calendar is 360 days long.

You know this? Oh, I didn't know that.

That's how many times it takes the moon to go through its full cycle, 12 times. And that is how original calendars were made. But as we now know, it takes us 365 and a quarter days to go around the sun. So every year, the lunar calendar falls 5. 25 days behind the real calendar.

Yeah, that makes sense. That's why we're into February right now.

I know. And it must change. Next year, it must be, again, five days earlier. We're going backwards, I'm sure, because it's going to come up in 360 days again. So it'll be five days earlier next year. Interesting. And that makes me wonder if it's going to overlap with real New Year's.

It will, one day. Yeah.

And that's generally one of my criticisms of the astrology is that we're using a birthday that's based on the real time it takes us to go around there. Okay.

Well, I think one thing you're probably not supposed to do today is criticize It's the Lunar New Year. Okay. All right. They said, well, according to Rachel, you're supposed to... You're setting the tone so you can buy a treat for yourself or for somebody else. She was like, You can spend money.

Oh, good. Yeah. Okay, so get a tree for yourself.

The opposite of what my parents' superstition was for New Year's.

Abundance versus scarcity.

Yeah, and Eileen, I like abundance.

While we're talking about TV shows, I do want to say, and I make a strong I pretty much begged you yesterday, which I don't do. I save that card for probably once every couple of years while I say, I'm not just saying this is a good show. I'm saying I really need you to watch this show. So A Night in the Seven Kingdom, which is in the Game of Thrones world. I was reluctant to try.

I don't know why. Me too.

So I started as reluctant to try. And then I watched it, the first episode, I was like, I don't know, this is a comedy? It's very disorienting.

Within five minutes, you see someone shitting.

Yeah. You see it, see it squirting. Yeah, squirting out of his foot. The grocery store I sent you the video of.

Exactly that.

Yeah. Real horsey squirts. And I'm like, whoa. And then it's smaller. And now, what's funny is now, these are all things I actually love about it. It's one character. You're following it. It's a character story unlike all the other worlds where there's so many characters. Yeah. But I will say, so I'm strongly urging everyone to watch it. And mostly I I want you to go to episode three because in my opinion, it gets better and better. I guess I probably settle into the tone. And then there is some plot. There's such good plot in this show.

Yeah, it's really good.

And wait till you see episode five.

Oh, good.

Because we've all seen these battle scenes on Game of Thrones, and they're done a certain way, and they're huge spectacles. But the way they do this, you are so inside the one character's experience of one of these things, and it's just an entirely different different look at it. And it's so good. I can't believe how fucking good that show is.

It's great. I'm really enjoying it. You told me yesterday, and I watched four episodes.

I'm very grateful and proud of you. Yes. And there's a little boy on it that is so fucking cute. His name is Dex. Dex Soul is his middle name.

He's so cute and good, and I love him. And sometimes, he gets sad, and it makes me want to cry. Oh, I don't think I should watch it tonight. Why? Because I'm not supposed to cry today.

Okay. Well, our lead character as well, the more the show goes on, I think he looks so much like Robert Redford. It drives me crazy. I can't even stand it. That's not the angle where he looks a ton like Robert Redford. But if you're dead on him, he is an enormous Robert Redford.

You are right.

Yeah, it's crazy. Back to our original theory. There's only so many copies of humans. I know. And then you start seeing the repeats.

Well, ding, ding, ding to our guest today. What was that? We had a guest on. Oh, yeah. Our recording. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, let's do some facts.

Yeah. I'm going to start with the fact that I must have told 100 people since we interviewed him. I find him to be impossibly charming. The soup to nuts attractiveness of him is crazy. Physically, the face, the body, the spirit.

I agree.

God, is he a catch?

Okay, so it was a weird ding, ding, ding because he talked about water fights, water gun fights and water fights. And I had just brought this up. He said in this neighborhood, they would have water fights. Remember I just asked you? Oh, water pistols? Yeah. I was like, Did you guys ever do water fights in your neighborhood? I did, and you said no. It was too girly. Too baby. Oh, yeah. Baby.

I've learned to not say girly and say baby.

Thank you. I appreciate that because those are different.

Yeah, they are. I mean, to boys, they mean the same thing. That's why why not just say the other thing?

Well, that's what I like boys to change because they aren't the same thing. And to think that all girls are babyish.

What I mean by that is both things are meant to emasculate the boy.

Exactly. And that is very bad for women to use girl as a pejorative to a boy.

Honey, should we care about babies?

No, because babies literally go, they are what they are. They poop their pants. They poop their pants. Their brains are small. That's not their fault. Okay, Black men have lowest life expectancy in the US, yes. Of any major demographic group, living an average of approximately 69 to 72 years, which is about 4 to 5 years less than white men. Oh, this was so cute. He mentioned his kid's soccer game. Super cute. But I just wanted to give the backstory that he asked if he could change the recording time so he could go to his kid's soccer game. And I thought that was so cute.

And we said, No.

No, fuck that.

Pick your career. No, we said, Okay.

What's the place in Star Trek where you go to live out the next generation? The Nexus.

That was the only side of him we saw that was a lady bone kill.

No, it's okay to start.

Let's be realistic.

No.

If you're on a dating app profile and the guy is like, Star Trek, number one. You're like, Uh-oh.

No, listen.

Be honest.

I'm being let me talk. Okay? Now, if you are across from Sterling and he is hot, smart, funny, interesting, great bonds, and he likes Star Trek, I'm like, Oh.

Yes. That's cool. That's 100% true. Now, full honesty, you're looking at there's a picture of two white guys. They're the same looks. One says, I love Star Trek in his bio, and the other one says, I I love Challenges.

Are they hot?

They're the same.

That's my whole point. They're the same, but are they hot? That matters.

They're right on the border. You wouldn't describe them as hot, and you certainly wouldn't say they're not attractive. They're neutral.

I don't think it would be a deterrent. I really don't. Okay. Because I actually like when someone has a niche. So Calleys' Max loves sci-fi, and it's unexpected. And I think it's so cool.

Do we agree that there's a trope about Trekkies? Yes, there is, but I don't think- Did you see the movie with Sam Rockwell and Tim Allen?

No, I didn't.

You didn't? It's very famous. They They like versions of Star Trek, and they go to a convention, and then they really get taken by aliens, and they really are. They have to be Star Trek.

I just think it's... Oh, no, I haven't seen that. Galaxy Quest.

Galaxy Quest.

Okay. Great movie. I just think that's a stereotype for movies. No, I think when someone has a niche or something they really like, it's cool. You have cars.

I know, but I don't think those are comparable niches.

Well, to me, they are because I have no interest in Cars, and I have no interest in Star Trek. Sure. I actually don't think... I like that you know a lot about a subject. I think that's cool.

Sure. That part is cool. But I will say cars is a physical endeavor that takes you out of your house, and you're either working on them or enhancing them, and then you're out driving them in the world. It's a very active hobby. Okay. Versus I like to sit in my room and watch Star Trek. That's different.

Well, I don't know if they sit in the room and watch it. They probably read. I think they read a lot.

I'm scared to say this one because I have some close friends that this is their religion. But what if you see big D? It says in the profile Live for D&D.

So I actually, again, it just is so dependent on the rest of them because it could... We could sound like that. It's like we played Catan every day for a year and a half.

That's true.

That's a good counter. And that is not that different.

Probably not. Well, I mean, it's way more in-depth, Dungeons of Dragons. I know that for a fact.

Well, here's the other thing. I feel like there's a world in which I would probably love of Dungeons and Dragons.

You think so?

Well, because it's a game, and you have characters, and it's a whole world.

I just think some of these interests do signal a personality type that they want to be in another world. And I think they want to be in a world where they will be, this fantasy version of themselves will be really celebrated. And I think it's okay to say there's a personality type that's attracted to that fantasy.

I know, but I I just don't know if that comes... Wanting to escape, I think, is universal. True. And everyone just finds their own way to do that. Yeah. And I don't know.

I'm probably being old and unfair.

Well, I just think it's personal. Look, I'm probably not going to... I mean, maybe I am, but I'm probably not going to date the most stereotypical what you're thinking about Trekkies at the convention dressed up.

Right. They greet you with the thing.

Yeah, that thing.

It's also just like, they don't want to date me. And they speak in a lot of like, trucky-to-I'm not being fair.

They don't want to date me because I don't even understand their world.

I apologize to everyone.

I also think I really do. I think community is beautiful.

Is there any hobby someone have that would be off-putting to you? Yeah. Okay, tell me. Ufc?

Participating.

No, like they love watching UFC and talking about UFC.

I'm on I'm on the thing. Sure. If it's UFC versus UFC, I'm picking Treki.

That makes sense. I just want to know, do you not filter? Is there anything that's not red flag or filters for you?

There are things that... This is going to be tricky because I have a lot of friends who love this and people I love, so I shouldn't do this. But I think if what's listed in their bio is that they love to hunt, you're probably not for me, which isn't necessarily fair because I have friends who love to hunt who I would be happy to be married to. Yeah. So, you know. Yeah. Oh, was Kristen at NYU in '98? Yes.

Yeah. She was a freshie.

Yeah. She entered '98, left 2001, which, according to her, not the most reliable source.

I didn't say it. A friend, you know him, too. His boyfriend's mother is Indian.

Oh, yeah.

And he's trying to arrange something for one of the sons, and there's apparently some chat you can be on, this group chat. It's all parents who have children from Ivy League schools that are now doctors that they're trying to match it. Oh, wow. Someone was kicked out because they got their MD from UCLA. No. Yes. I'm like, You guys.

Oh my. Kicked out?

Kicked out of the chat. How did you get in in the chat?

I It's so embarrassing for the people who care.

I just like, Man, what I think is you really bought into this thing, this Ivy League thing. Yes.

Wow. Okay, you said he was on ER. That was- That's hot. Really hot and exciting. And so I looked up that episode. I hadn't gotten there yet in my rewatch. Season 10, episode 13, titled Get Carter, which definitely has to do with Noah Wiley because he was Carter.

And that was a movie, Get Carter. So it's a nod to that.

It was called Get Carter?

I believe so. 1971 film. What's it about? And then maybe remade with something. 2000 with Sylvester Stone. Yeah, Sly.

Oh, wow. Is it a basketball movie?

Vegas Mobster.

Isn't there a... Coach Carter?

Oh, there's a Coach Carter. Yeah. I missed that Okay.

Let's see if there was anything else. I don't think there was. Oh, Army Wives. So when I graduated college and was living at home for a year and I had an agent, I was trying to work in Atlanta because that was all the rage. Everything's moving to all production. Don't waste your time. Don't even go to LA. All production films here now, so all the acting jobs are coming here. I would say nine out of 10 auditions were for Army Wives. I auditioned so many times for Army Wives. I never booked it. Not a once.

But they kept seeing you.

Yeah, they had to. I mean, they're going for like... That's why that whole thing was a ruse is it was like five and unders, which means five lines are under, is the type of role they were casting out of Georgia. Yeah. Always. And they wanted local hires for that. But I did book Drop Dead Diva. That's my first acting role.

Out of Georgia. Yeah. I didn't see Drop Dead Diva. That was a narrative show?

It was a show. It was on- Sounds like It was a reality show. No, it was a real show, and it was on, I think, Lifetime. Okay. That was exciting for me.

What bad? Yeah. Under 5?

It was under 5. Also, you remember notoriously during that time, I auditioned for a fast food commercial, and it had to do with chicken. I forget what it was. But they said, Oh, you can bring a friend for this. And then I brought Calleigh just as to come, and then she booked it.

This is the age old. There's a lot of these stories that bounce around.

But it was so early for me.

That's what happened with Tyree, I believe. I think he joined his sibling for some other audition and ended up getting Parenthood.

Wow. And also Kehe Kwan, notoriously.

Kehe Kwan? Yes. He was coaching his brother and got cast.

But that was the time where I thought every audition was going to make or break my entire career.

How can you not?

For me... Because also, they weren't very frequent, the auditions.

Yeah, once every couple of months, maybe.

Yeah. Oh, man. Was that a tough- Another one down the toilet. Blow, and I had to Can you connect us with her? Oh, my God. But guess what? We're still friends. That's it.

Okay. Were there any facts?

Yeah, it's just so many.

Okay, great.

Mainly the one about- You auditioned for- Hey. No, I'm just trying to. Mainly- Just from my own edification. Mainly the life expectancy, Nexis, Star Trek Generation. Right. Kristen's NYU. Okay. Er.

You're right. That was chalkful effects. Water fights. I apologize. It was chalkful. I'm not doing well with the Lunar New Year.

You got to get some red on.

I'm going to put some red on for my lunch date with Belty.

Okay. All right. Love you. Love you.