Transcript of Cher

Wndri Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcast, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Sheppard. I'm joined by Monica Padman and Best friend Aaron Weekly. Hi. Happy New Year, Armcherries.

Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Another year together.

Another year together. Let's go really hard in 2026. Just to remind everyone, it's an even number. That's a good start.

We like it.

We're starting the year with an enormous bang, Cher. Cher. One of the first and original single named- It's true. Cher is a singer, an actor, Activist, a Philanthropus, and an activist, a philanthropist, and an icon.

She's an icon, whether she wants to believe it or not.

She doesn't want to believe it, but she is. Her albums Believe, Heart of Stone, Closer to the Truth, Moonstruck, Burlass, Ding, Ding, Ding. I'm on record over this last year, so I'm not fluffing any pillows. I read this book last year, and I absolutely loved it and recommend it to everybody. Her book, which we're here to talk about, Share the Memoir, Part One, is a fucking action-packed, thrill ride. I recommend it so much. Please enjoy Share. I hope you have backups. That's not enough Dr. Pepper for anybody. Yes, it is. That's a joke, that amount of Dr. Pepper. Please, Mama, join us.

Yes, come here.

No, wait. There.

I like your outfit. Thanks.

We're going to see Wicked today.

Oh, cool. So I'm eventizing it.

Do you have Wicked Fever like Kristen does?

I'm really interested. I didn't see the first one.

Did Have you see the Broadway play?

No. I've just seen The Lion King because we have a six-year-old, and he's really precocious. I mean, he and I were chasing his dad. No, his dad ended up chasing us, and I had a guard there, and he goes up to the guard and he takes his face and he goes, My dad's a psychopath. Oh, wow. So, yeah, he's very precocious.

Okay. You know when they say, when someone tells you who they are on a date, listen, you've heard this term? You could probably say their children, too. If their children declare them a psychopath, maybe we look into it.

He's not.

Do you like being around a little person?

Yes. Before I met him, I walked around my house saying, I want a man and a toddler.

You declared it to the universe, I want a man and a toddler. Yes.

I wasn't expecting them maybe together, but that's what I wanted.

You wanted both of those things, and if they came as a pair, all the better.

Yes, I was expecting them separately.

But not in the same person.

Oh, great question.

You don't want your to behave like a child. No. Except sometimes they do.

In the bedroom. No, no, no. But he's funny. He's really funny.

Now, I want to tell you that you were going to come in when the book was coming out a while ago. And so What I do when we have a guest, and if they have a book, I start reading it. But if they cancel, I stop reading the book because I no longer need to read the book, and I've got to read other books. But you canceled, and I go, Fuck, I'm going to finish this thing. I love your book. Thank you. Yeah, I kept just motoring through.

I have the other one, too. Part two. Yes. But you have no idea how hard it is to write a book. I mean, it was written a couple of times, and then when I read it, I thought, This is not going to happen.

It's incredibly honest.

Yeah. What were the parts of the first versions that you had to throw away? Were you like, Oh, it's not honest enough?

I talked to a lady who was English, not happening. It wasn't her fault. Then I tried with a girl that was really sweet, and I loved her, but it wasn't happening. Then my friend Eric Roth, I called him and was like, Eric, I am so screwed. I need somebody. He said, Well, I have somebody. He sent her over. Then we started, and it just started to work. I would say everything. It just started to fall in place.

Was it that she was not intimidated by you or she wasn't afraid to corral you? What did she do that was a good fit?

She let me speak the way I speak because the other ones, it just It didn't sound like me. And I was like, Why? What is this? So I never read it.

Did you not do the audio version?

No. Because I'm just like, I started each chapter.

I know this because I actually did consume a lot of it over audio, and I'm now remembering that. Yeah, you said, I would love to read this to you, but I just am not a good reader, so I'll fuck up this good story.

No. It's like when I went for my first job, so fucked up, but it was for Robert Allman, and I only got it because my mom and Robert We're friends. My mom woke him up, didn't know it was him because she had my number in New York and his number right underneath each other. And so she said his share there, woke him up. He was furious. He's a big bear. Well, he's dead now. But anyway, he was a big bear. He said, What the fuck would Cher be doing here? She said, She wants to be an actress, and she was doing an audition for Joe Papp. And then he called me.

No kidding.

I thought it was a joke. And he said, I'm going to send a script over. I'm not offering you anything. I read it and I knew who he wanted me to be. And he called me and I went, I can't find this person. I can't do it. He said, Have you got a job? And I said, No. And he said, Well, then I don't know what you're talking about. Be here tomorrow. And then I said, Okay, I can act or I can read, but I can't do both at the same time. And he said, Be here tomorrow.

Oh, what a blessing.

Sandy Dennis said it was the worst reading she's ever heard.

And she had heard a lot. Yeah. How did you, over time, get good at reading scripts and being able to memorize them?

I can read. I can't read and speak the lines. If you could have seen me trying to read the beginning of the book, how horrible was it, Jen?

Out of 10, Jen.

Three, two.

That's so great. Wow, you guys work together, so that's probably a one.

Yeah, we've worked together for a million years.

She probably bumped it up one. That's nice. Yeah. Okay, we're joined by a lovely lady, my bride, Kristen. For anyone who wouldn't remember, you guys are ex-co-stars. What is your memory, hon, of finding out? Was Cher in the cast before you or after? We're talking about Burlesque.

Before, certainly.

She was first in. Careful there.

Certainly, I was not attached before Cher was attached. I was cast in a movie that Cher was starring in. Oh, please. Called Burlesque. And I was very excited because it was Cher, Christina Aguilera.

Also, it could have been a really good, fun movie, except for you know who, except for both of them.

Okay. Kristen, being the first one. Kristen and Cher.

Not cast members.

I was kidding. Not cast members.

It was a hard shoot. It was a hard shoot.

I was present.

Can we reveal anything today?

What I can say is that not being involved with it was there was a romantic relationship happening for people that were very high above. Yes. And that was playing out on set quite frequently and dramatically and uniquely to anyone that's been in show business.

But there was another Another thing that I cannot mention.

Look at me really hard in the eyes and convey it to me.

Oh, no. Okay.

What if we really got it?

Then the song that I did in the movie, he said, I'm cutting that song out because I don't want her to ruin my movie.

What? Okay.

I didn't know that.

But you remember how- I remember a lot of drama, but I also remember the way- How funny I am?

Yes. The way you get, or at least the way I get through dramatic or chaotic situations, is to find someone to hold hands with in the corner and just laugh at everything.

That's how I get through it. I was either doing that with you or with Stanley.

I love Stanley.

Every woman loves Stanley. Don't you think it's universal? It's very likable. Yeah, universal appeal.

You cannot love him.

What do you remember about young Kristen Bell? Did you go, Oh, yeah, this girl will definitely be all that she's proven to be?

We got along so well. We were very sympathical, and I respect I expected her a lot. I didn't know who she was, but she was good.

How much are you aware of the persona you bring into something? Like that project, people are very excited that Cher is there, and you have to take that on and deliver to some degree? How much are you aware of the persona of Cher? When you're just someone who wants to enter this job like anyone else and act and do a good job, but you have to be aware of this other presence that's around, which is Cher, the icon.

It just doesn't mean anything. It's just I'm a woman who's always worked, and that's who I am, and I'm successful, but I don't buy that other stuff.

You can't connect to it, but you can observe the impact, though, it's having on people Well, surely.

I am who I am, and I've worked hard to be who I am, but I don't see the...

I don't know. Putting you on that type of pedestal.

Yeah, sure. If I see people and they're going crazy, I will go up to them, give them a hug, I can go, It's okay. Yeah, we'll get through this.

Do they freak out, though? I feel like sometimes you see those moments and people just can't handle it.

Seeing the funniest picture of people behind me realizing it, but somebody else is taking a picture of me and they get this other person.

You must be seeing your life from above in those circumstances.

I think I see it from sideways.

Shirley, you had people that you looked at as if they were Cher.

Yes. Who were yours? Audrey Hepburn. The Hepburn girls I bumped into her with my Academy Award in my hand.

Backstage at the Oscars?

Yeah, but you know there's the black curtain when you're going off? Yeah. She was in the black curtain. I didn't see her, and I bumped right into her, and she said, I'm so glad you won. I was wishing you would win.

Were you able to feel calm and present, or were you a little bit revved up that it was her?

I was revved up.

From my perspective, you think it's a waste of time. Let's cut through all of that.

Yeah. I want to get to the, I'm the human, let's talk. I'm not an icon. What the fuck is an icon? Audrey, Kate. Sure. I'm not Audrey or Kate.

I hate to tell you this. If you're a one-nameer, you're an icon.

If you've sold 100 million albums over the course of seven decades, if Juvon Academy. Listen, you checked all the boxes. Sadly, it just adds up to icon.

Whether you want to accept it or not. But that was one of the reasons that I gravitated towards you, because I definitely, when I first booked that movie, had that that you had with the Hepburn girls, because I was like, oh, my Gosh, I'm going to be in this movie with Sharon. She's an icon. But your vibe in real life is so grounded.

Well, I'm not grounded at all. No, I'm completely crazy and I'm completely grounded.

Yes, both.

And also, I mean, I'm a Taurus and a Gemini. I'm three people.

I don't know what any of that means, but when you talk to you, it does feel like you're going, let's just cut through all the waste of time of like, Oh, I'm this. I'm that. You feel this way. Let's just talk like human beings.

No, we just had fun. We just talked. What do you do? You just talk to somebody.

Connect as people.

You're fun to shoot the shit with. And I will tell you, I'm not going to untrude on the rest of your interview, so I'll leave you with this.

No, no, don't go. Why? Because I want you here.

I'll stay for a couple more minutes. Then I'm going to let you get to your thing.

We haven't been getting to it. We've been getting.

We're doing it. We're even starting about a half hour.

No. This is till 7: 00.

This is till 7: 00.

7: 00 PM.

But listen, people ask me a lot, what's the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? And I say it's from you because you said to me, Honey, if it doesn't matter in five years, it doesn't matter.

That's my mom's. If it doesn't matter in five years, it doesn't matter. That's great. And I've used it my whole life.

And it's still relevant.

It's always. My mom was super cool. And my mom was like a different version of me, a blonde version of me, or I was a dark version of her.

You were the Romanian version of her.

My dad's Romanian, but I feel more like my mom because I didn't really know my dad. And then my mom said, One day, would you like to meet your dad? And I always knew there was somebody that everybody didn't talk about. He was like the dark figure that no one talked about because I loved my sister's dad as my dad.

Both named John, conveniently.

Right. So I met him.

How old were you?

Eleven. I was so happy that I finally knew why I did certain things.

It explained a lot.

Yeah. And also my mother and my sister have huge tempers, and I don't have one unless, and you got to push me way far, I mean, you can push me for a long time and then stop or you're going to get killed.

Well, what I like the most about your book and what is unique about it for a current book is it reminds me of listening to someone share an AA.

Never done drugs. I don't drink.

It's crazy you didn't do drugs, given that your biological dad was a junkie.

And both my husbands.

Both husbands, junkies. So that's crazy. But when you see AA scenes in movies, they're always sad and sacrin. And someone's like, And then my wife came in and she found me. That's not our vibe. Our vibe is laughing at everything. We fucked up. We own it. But there's not a ton of shame or embarrassment. And your story is told in this very unique, non-victimey way that I love. Because the childhood is fucking crazy. It's one for the ages.

The marriages were pretty weird, too.

Your mom did seven or eight marriages along the way.

I think six. I don't know. She married my dad twice for some reason.

So we don't know how to count that. But suffice to say, there was a new dude every couple of years, and she got married to those dudes, and you moved all over the place for these dudes.

Well, I think because in those days, my mom used to say, you got to marry someone.

That's just how it is. Yeah. Originally, when you first arrive, you go straight to an orphanage. Yes.

It didn't even take me a long time. I just went straight to it.

You went straight to it? Yeah. And you were there for how long? This was in Pennsylvania, some Catholic? Yeah.

My dad took my mom to Pennsylvania and said, I'm going to New York. I'll be right back. My mom had to make a living. So my dad took me to a Catholic home, and my mom came to visit me every week. And then my mom got sick, and she missed three weeks. And she came back, and they went, That's it for you. They wouldn't let her see me.

No. They cut her off. Yeah. Do you know how long you were in there?

When I was in there, I was crawling. When I left, I was walking.

You don't have memories of that, or do you?

I really don't, but I have where he's from pretty far back.

Have you ever heard of Gabor Mathe? No. He's incredible. He's a psychologist, and he's a world famous one. And yeah, he was a little boy in Nazi Germany, and he had the moment where his mom went into a camp and had to hand him to a stranger, and he lived with a stranger for, I don't know what it was, a year or something, then was reunited.

I lived with two families that were strangers.

You found out later in life, right?

Yeah, I had no idea. My grandmother brought this I knew the names of the women, Edith and Macky, but I thought they were babysitter. I never knew that I lived with them. And the woman comes in with my high chair. We had Bambi on the back of it.

That she had saved. That's pretty sweet.

I'm looking at my grandmother and I'm thinking, What is this? Why have I been led to believe this? But then I've had some terrible, terrible things happen to me, some things I couldn't put in the book. But I don't want to write around. I've got places I want to go.

So much of your story is so specific to what era it happened in. And I think it's telling of your lack of shame or embarrassment about it, which I love, and your non-victiminess. But life was way different in the '70s, if you were a kid.

We started in the '60s.

Yeah, you were born in '47?

'06. When I was about four years old, my mom was in drama class. All of our friends were artists, singers, dancers, dancers. And I didn't even know there were ugly people in the world.

I was going to say they were all inordinately gorgeous, right? Everyone was super stylish and sexy and living that lifestyle.

Right. But I mean, also crazy and neurotic. I used to sit in the seats in the audience and watch everybody rehearsing. I was the only child, too, so everyone wanted to pick me up and kiss me.

Yeah, you were the center of attention, I'm sure.

Hello.

It's addictive. But dad leaves right away, John, number one. John, number two, his husband, number two or three. Two. Two. And he's special. You fall in love with him. You're with him, zero to nine. But between dad and John, who becomes your stepdad, there's also mom was engaged for a minute to a casino owner. Prim? Yes. And I was curious, is that Prim, Nevada? Is that the same person? Yeah.

It is? Well, I don't know, but it makes sense, doesn't it?

It makes sense, right? Who the house named Prim? I'm like, this guy. Prim is a whole town in Nevada. It's a gambling town. But I'm imagining her mom's boyfriend went on to create this town, Prim, Nevada. Oh, my goodness. You don't have any memories of that. You're too little, probably.

No. And also, he didn't like me.

He didn't want a kid around. So then your mom meets Johnny in an acting class, and you love him.

Yes. I loved my dad because my dad was funny and handsome and did all kinds of things with me. And when my sister was born, nobody cared about me. Nobody was even looking. I just became a non-entity, and He one day came in my room and said, I don't see what's so great about that baby. Let's go get some ice cream. Everybody else was like,.

He had a drinking problem. Oh, yes. And he got violent.

Everybody in the family, besides me He had a huge temper, huge, huge, huge. And there was corporal punishment because that's what happened in those days.

Right. Maybe that's why you don't have one. Maybe it's in reaction to being around so much of it, that you've taken another route.

It's not that you're born with it. My mom and my sister- Short fuses, fly off the handle.

No fuse. How are you making peace with the fact that there was this man who was so loving and kind to you and saw you and no one else was seeing you, that he had this Dr. Jekyll's side, or I guess Mr. Hyde's side.

It was very scary because you were constantly vigilant.

Yeah, it makes you hyper vigilant. How do we prevent him from turning into a werewolf? Because I love this version. How do we head off any problem?

Okay, this This is what you get to be. You get to be able to read the room really well. And I knew the drink where I had to be out by.

Right. Oh, that's going to tip on this one. So you get really savvy. But do you also think it opens up for you a tolerance that people are really fucked up and they're really nice? Do you think it might have lowered your expectations in a way that later materialized with Sunny?

Sunny wasn't like that for such a long time. Sunny was fabulous, and he would do We would do water paints, and we would go to the park, and this guy played the saxophone, and we would laugh. We had a lot of fun, and he was special in a way. And then it became very treacherous.

Yeah, he got insanely controlling, as we'll get to. But do you think you were a little bit like, Yeah, this is how men act. Now there's this new side of him, and it's a pain in the ass, and I got to deal with it. But also this is how men are.

It was so both and. Look, I was so young. I was 16 when I met him.

If you wrote about him today, people will be like, This is the most traumatic thing I've ever read. But standard for the day was you were super attractive, you're 16, you almost get hit by Warren Beatty.

I lied to him.

You lied to Warren Beatty?

You said you were older.

Yeah. You lied to everybody, right? You were dating a ton of other guys.

You can't be 16. Yeah. I mean, in those days, it wasn't so bad.

I'm trying to make peace with it while I read it because I just get it. It was standard. You were never thinking like, It was weird. I'm 16. This guy's 30. He invited me over.

No, but I knew couldn't tell people. Yeah.

It was still a thing enough that you knew you had to at least say 18.

Yeah, but it sounds like it was all pageentry, though. It was just like, I'm 18.

Well, no, because people wouldn't go out with you if you told them you were 16.

Well, sure. Which I think is probably good of them.

There was the emotional line for guys.

But how old was Warren when he almost hit your car and invited you over?

I don't know. I was 16. I don't know how old Warren is. He was older, but he wasn't old.

In his 20s, probably? Probably. This could happen in LA. You could just be driving the next thing you know, you're friends with Warren Bady. Right.

And I just left a guy that I was dating a tennis player. And then I'm going down the street, down Sunset, and some asshole comes up and almost sideswipes me. I have to go into Schwab's parking lot.

He stuck in the Schwabs real quick. Yeah.

And then he came up and he had glasses on, so I didn't know who he was. But I didn't really care much about who he was. I just knew my mother and my friend, Penny, would be really impressed.

And they were?

Very.

Nowadays, if you're a 16-year-old is hanging out with a mid-20s movie star, you'd be like, This is not for you. But they were like, Oh, tell us more.

No, but he talked to my mom, and she went from, You're never going out of the house again, to, Oh, it's okay, honey. Yeah. He was so charming. Different. And later, a couple of years later. No, not a couple of years later. Eight months later. So he calls me and said, Let's go to dinner. And I went, I have a boyfriend. He said, Okay, let's go to lunch.

Yeah. Okay, so I'll just fast forward through, but we're not putting a fine enough point on the fact that you were in Fresno, you were in New York. There was a husband who was financially set in New York. You all moved to New York. Your mom hates it. You moved back to LA. You're just bouncing all around.

Yes, but I was used to it. We were gipsy people.

By the time you're 16, you move out.

Yes, I'm finished. What I thought was, I've learned as much as I can learn from these people I'm leaving.

So at 16, you move in with a girlfriend.

Yes. She worked for my mom for a while. And then when my mom knew I was going, they said, You have to live with her. She was somebody that was going to really keep a reign on me. We moved into this apartment, and when my parents lived, we smoked a cigarette in every room. We just put in ashtrays everywhere and smoked a cigarette in every room.

Yeah, pretty exciting to be in Hollywood living on your own at 16, and you're hot.

We were in Beverly Hills.

Yeah, so you're living with her and then you meet Sunny.

Yes, but he likes my girlfriend. My girlfriend's gay.

Again, not an issue in the '70s because you also date Geffen for quite a while.

Yeah, but that's a different thing because he never had been in love with anybody. So I was the first person that he had real feelings for. So we had a special arrangement. When we met, how did we meet?

I don't know where you met, and I should.

Okay, well, so should I.

But let's walk up to that point. So you meet Sunny. Sunny likes your girlfriend.

She's gay. She's gay.

It's a mess.

Runs off with her boyfriend.

Frawl leaves. You need a roommate. You're just this dumb kid that hangs around a bit with Sunny. It's very innocuous This was the beginning.

He and I got to be friends, and I would do stupid things with him, like the girls his age would never do. I was happy to just do nothing.

He wanted to be silly with somebody.

Yes, he did. And so then I got kicked out. So I went next door to tell him because I was very verloren, and we were best friends by that time. Well, not best, but we were good. He said, Well, you can move in with me. And I was like, Okay, good. Okay, what? And then he said, I have single beds. To tell you the truth, I don't find you particularly attractive.

Wow. He said that.

He was also 27 and she was 16.

Okay, so- He didn't know that.

He thought you were what?

Eighteen. Eighteen was my number.

Did you feel safer, in quotes, knowing that he didn't find you attractive? Like, Oh, yeah, we're just friends, and it can be easy.

I don't know if I felt safer, but I felt safe with him because that's the way he was. He was very protective, but not just of me. He was a good friend, all these guys. And it says in the book, The night that I was in this club, I had my back to the door, and when he walked in, I noticed that everyone was going, Son, hey, Sonny, come and sit with us. Hey, Sonny, come and sit with us. Son, son, come sit with us. And I'm thinking, who in God's name is behind me? And I turned around. It was Maria and- Oh, Tony and Maria? Yeah, Tony and Maria. Yeah, Tony and Maria. Right. Thank you. See, I knew you should be here.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watched that new show on. So frustrating. Fifteen minutes later, you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords, and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate, North American Insurance Co and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Inuit TurboTax. You know that feeling when you drop your taxes off with somebody and then nothing? You're just sitting there wondering if they've even started, if there's a problem. If you're getting everything you're owed, it's like sending your car to the shop and never getting an update. That's what I appreciate about TurboTax full service. They've completely flipped that experience. You get matched with a dedicated tax expert who actually does your taxes for you. Here's the part that changes everything. You get real-time updates on your experts' progress right in the app. You can literally see when they're working on your return, no more guessing, no more waiting by the phone.

If you have questions, you get unlimited help from your at no extra cost, even nights and weekends during tax season. They're focused on getting you the best possible outcome in every dollar you deserve. Visit turbotax. Com to get matched with a TurboTax full-service expert today. That's turbotax. Com. Only available with TurboTax full-service experts. Real-time updates and iOS mobile app.

So everyone just disappeared.

How How long were you living together before it got blurry?

It got way blurry when my mom came in and found his shorts next to the tea bags. Okay.

Sure. She was like, What's happening here?

I would say, Mom, if you're going to come over, just call me before. I want to make sure the house is clean. And then I lost most of his clothes because when she was coming over, I threw them in my girlfriend's. She left her window open. I just threw them through the window.

Okay.

Then Sonny came down. He said, Sheryl, my shorts, my underwear is all over this. Bush is over there. What are you doing?

And he was working for Phil Specter. And for people who are not aware of Phil Specter, a lot of people won't be, he was a titan in the '60s music. He invented this wall of sound recording technique. He was a god. He just produced so many hit records.

Yeah, he made the recing group.

Yes. And so Sonny was working for him, and you start stopping by the recording studio.

That's not exactly true. I had met Philip before with his best friend, and I walked in and sat down, and he asked me in French, would I go to bed with him? Sure. And so I knew the answer, and I said, for money.

Oh, nice.

And then when I had to be in with Sonny, I had to say, Sonny, and I met him I know him. He doesn't like me. So anyway, but finally, he said to Sonny, I'll bring her. So he brought me. And Phillip and I had a really weird relationship.

Can I just tell people also, in addition to him being a pioneer in sound, he also got convicted for I guess. For people who don't know the end of the Phil Specter story.

That was way, way later.

Yeah, that was in the '90s maybe. But did you get a creepy vibe from him or no? He was an eccentric man, but could you see that it was weirder than that?

No, he was really eccentric. He could be funny. He could be scary. No, never that. I was never going to take shit from him. And Sonny used to say, Shera, he's my boss. Please stop. And I went, Yeah, well, I don't give a shit.

Right, right, right, right.

So you had a weird relationship with him. Yeah.

I don't know where I got this chutzma because Because I should have been nervous and frightened because everybody else was.

But he probably liked that, that you were the only person not doing that.

It's also because you've been trained on like 65 different stepdads. You had to adjust all these different people with big personalities.

He tried. If someone says that as their first sentence to you, and you say the sentence back, which he was shocked, then you can't really take being frightened serious.

But you end up singing background on some songs that become hits.

Because Sunny had told him, Share sing. If someone tells you someone sing, it's like, Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay, fine. Darlene and I were talking about this not long ago. Darlene, her car broke down and Philip said, Sonny said, You sing, go in there. I wanted to tell him what my credentials were, but I didn't have any. I went in and I started. That was being my baby, and I kept going until after the Christmas album.

Wow. Yeah, a huge hit song. Having not planned on that and that happening, were you so tickled by that turn of events? Were you excited when you'd hear your song come on the radio?

Well, the first one I did was that, and the last one is You've Lost That Loving Feeling, and I was the last girl.

That's the one I'm thinking of.

I was the only girl.

That was a great song. Was it so exciting? Great song.

Yeah. We were all sitting in the booth, and when Bill finished it, nobody could breathe. It was like,.

So then you and Sunny record some songs. Yeah, nothing. Crickets. How do you end up meeting the Rolling Stones? And how do they tell you, you know what you guys should do? You should go to England, you and Sunny.

Sunny and Jack Nietzsche met them, and they didn't like being here So much because of the way that the older people, the heads of the studios, they didn't understand it. Bobcat vest and big elephant bell bottoms. And people were wearing suits and dresses, little short dresses, but above the knee, not short.

This whole Bohemian style wasn't accepted. No. So you go to England and you guys become quite famous.

Overnight.

Because you arrive and you get thrown out of the hotel as you arrive and it's all captured in the media, and that makes you guys an overnight sensation.

Why'd you get thrown to hell? That's so bizarre.

They're close. Because they're close, the way we looked.

Wow. It's so funny because you see them now and you're like, Oh, yeah, that looks exactly like it's supposed to. But the The notion that you guys were getting thrown out for how you looked is pretty- Because you were renegades.

Because nobody looked as strange as we did. We left as nobodies and came back to America. I think 5,000 people were at the airport.

Because I got you, babe, had come out by that point?

I Got You Babe came out in Europe, in England. In England? Yeah.

In '65.

By the time we got back home, it was a huge hit.

Wow. And so then why did it sour? Because you get your first valley between '65 and '71. There's a six years where you have this pretty big success, and then you got to go back to the drawing board.

It had passed us by at that time. We didn't really grow with the people, and everybody was doing drugs. Everybody was talking about doing drugs, and we didn't do... Well, I didn't do drugs. Sonny was a little iffy.

The counterculture was taking over.

Yeah.

So at that point, Sunny basically redesigns you guys. Yes. Are you thinking, well, the ride's over? Were you quick to give up, or did you have the same optimism that Sunny did?

I did not I have the same optimism. What I had was faith because he said, Give me two years and we'll be more famous than we ever were before.

Which is crazy. And you guys developed more of a lounge act in the wake of this, right?

It was an accident. We went just to sing, but the people didn't like us and were so disrespectful that I just started making jokes for the band.

And through that, you discovered, oh-No, Sunny discovered. You're quite funny. Yeah.

Sunny knew what the pulse was, and he knew what to bet on. So he encouraged it. Not at home, not any place else, just on stage.

Yeah. And there's this other weird dynamic people might not know about is that Sunny never wanted to perform, really. He wanted you to be a star, and he wanted to produce your music, and you very much had stage fright and wanted him present. So you'd feel confident.

I still get it.

Yeah, you have it here. That's why Kristen sitting right there. She's acting as Sunny.

Sunny Bell. So once you do the Sunny and Share show, which again comes out of this lounge routine you're doing, and Sunny goes back to the drawing board, and he does. He cracks it. I think this will blow people's mind that Sunny and Cher was getting 30 million viewers a week. That's insane. There's not a show on TV that even is one-tenth of that anymore.

And you guys were together at this point, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. And you were very deeply connected.

Well, this is when, I guess it's been happening before, but this is when now this new side of Sunny comes out, which is incredibly controlling. You have this huge success. There's a lot of money. You're not allowed to leave the house. You're allowed to go shopping. That's pretty much all you're allowed to do, right? Yes. And he's cutting you off from friendships you have. This side of him, was it happening slowly? Was it more like you woke up one day and were like, Oh, I don't have a life. Or while it was happening, were you like, What's going on? Was it something that occurred to you late?

It took a little while. I couldn't do anything. Joe D. Was our friend and our manager and also in the Mafia. But I wanted to do something, and I just said, I'll learn how to play tennis. I was going there and I was having the best time. Jody went with me to pick out my clothes. And then I'm going with this lady every couple of days. And then one day, I'm leaving, but she's having a huge party. So there are people coming in. Dennis, my friend, told Sunny that I was there, but lots of people were there and lots of men were there, and he burned my clothes.

In the fireplace or in the yard? In the dramatic.

Was he giving excuses at first for why you should stay in the house? Was it a slow burn of, You should stay in because you're too famous now? What was he saying?

I think it came on slowly because also when we started Sunny and Chairs show, I was free on the show, and he was funny, and we got along. It's such a strange dichotomy because we would be laughing and we'd be having the best time. And then when we were at home, it was more cut and dried.

Yeah, he You had lots of other girlfriends.

I didn't know except the one.

You're in the middle of the night, you go to get a glass of water, and there's a young woman putting her boots on in the house. Yes. Were you thinking of how to get out of it? No. Were you underwhelmed with like, wow, I have a hit show, and we're making tons of money, and I'm not very happy. Were you having like, where's the joy?

It wasn't that because I was so happy with the show, and he was so nice on their show. And so at the show, we would be having the best time, and we were more working than we were at home.

So had you not had the show, you might have started questioning the whole relationship, but it worked so well there that you're like, Well, it works. Do you think this was an old-fashioned, masculine, Italian, macho ownership over you?

When he took my money, I said, Why did you do this? And he said, Because I always knew you were going to go. He started smoking cigars, and I knew it was over.

Yeah, you said that. Why is that? What is that indicative of?

Because like, businessmen smoke cigars.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm wondering, there's this pretty well worn track with you all, which is men are attracted to your sparkliness, and then they're with you, and then they're super threatened by your sparkliness. So that's what's a mystery to me is he didn't have any interest in you, but yet he was very jealous and didn't want anyone else to have you. Do you think he was protecting his financial interests or his heart interests?

No, not his heart interest by that time.

So it's just more like you were his whole business, and he wanted to keep you just doing that business.

And also, he couldn't do it without me.

Clearly. Yeah, you did it without him as it turned out.

But also we had fun. It was such a polar opposites because on stage, we had a blast. He let me have all the freedom that I wanted to. And then we came home. The show kept us together a lot longer than we would have been anyway, because we He had such a good time. He was so fun, and he was so funny, and we worked so well together.

He played a bit of a beta role on the show. But then in real life, he wanted to be very alpha.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he felt emasculated in the show, and so he had to compensate at home.

When he found his place, when he found what he was good at, he was really funny. Actually, the people liked him more than me.

I don't know about that.

I get it. You were the more powerful of the group. No, I was the bitch. He's more He's like an underdoggy.

On the monologs, I just cut him to ribbons. But then he found this nebbish funny guy, and everyone loved him. They were drawn to me.

You're touring like crazy when you're not doing the show, the marriage, it's not great. At some point, you become friends with David Geffen. He enters your life.

Oh, no, no. I met him at Lou Adler's Christmas party.

There it is.

We found it.

We got it.

We got it. We found it. We got it.

Met him at the Christmas party. At some point, he says, Can I read your contract.

Bill was way before David.

Bill is the guitarist in the band. Yes.

The guts from I don't even know where because everyone was terrified of Sunday.

You're in Vegas doing shows. You have to do a bunch of shows, and you finally had enough. You're done. And you've not confided in anybody what you're going through.

My friend Paulette knew, but everybody was really frightened of Sunny. And I was thinking about jumping off the balcony.

And you confided in the guitarist of the band.

One night, I just went to the band's room after the show.

Which Sonny did not want you doing that.

Are you kidding?

He didn't want me to do anything.

He didn't want me to do anything.

He wanted you to go into a room and just shut down until the next performance.

No, he had a kidney stone, and I got to go to the movies with my friends.

And you were so excited. He had a kidney stone. Yes, I was so excited.

Did you ever think, what's happened to me?

No. I mean, if you're 16 and someone's 27 and you don't know what you are doing, and then all of a sudden you're singing with Philip. And Sunny was nice then. Sonny was nice for a really long time, and then not so nice.

So you confide in this bandmate, and then, yeah, you just use him a little bit as like, Okay, I'm going to wiggle out.

He said, Everyone wants to No. Why do you live this way?

Did that feel like reality just shattered?

I mean, I knew it was obvious to Paulette, but I wasn't allowed to talk to the band, so I didn't realize that they knew.

Yeah. And now you're saying, I'm leaving this residency. I'm not going to perform. That became your Trump card.

That night, it was crazy. Sonny said, Are you crazy? Do you know what you're doing? He said, You need to come back to the room. And I said, You know what? Bill wants to come with me. It was just crazy. That's the breaking point. But also, I hadn't eaten in days. I wasn't even 98 pounds.

Because he wouldn't let you eat?

No, I couldn't. Oh, you were just in fight or flight. I was just crazy. Bill comes up, and he was 22. I was 25. And then the second time, he said, Why do you live this way? And I said, I don't know. I mean, I can't do it anymore. I don't know what I'm going to do. So Sonny said, Come back up to this room now. And I said, I'm going to bring Bill. I went from one person just flipped over that night. Yeah.

Did a 180. But he was so business-minded, Sonny, that he knew best to salvage the business. Once he recognized, Oh, you might be deserting this business, he came to the table in a way that was like, Okay, I'm going to let you move to Malibu. The concession started.

Also, I didn't know how powerful I was at all. Right.

So the ball has started rolling, but it's not until Geffen looks at this contract and says to you, Do you realize 100% of this money goes to a company called Share Inc. That is owned 95% by Sunny and 5% by his lawyer.

Zero % for Share?

Zero %.

Oh, my.

And it's been generating a fortune.

It was like born yesterday because they would bring me a bunch of Share enterprises' contracts to sign. And it was always when I was getting ready to go on stage.

Yeah, were you going to read 20 pages of legalese?

Yeah, and I'm not going to read anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the next day, he said, You got to get out of this. So I went to Sunny and I said, I'll stay if we're partners. And he said, no.

So stupid.

What a dumb ass on top of everything else.

Yeah, but he wasn't used to it. And he hated David. I mean, he hated him with a vengeance.

I'm sure.

None of the others but David.

You had Stockholm syndrome to some degree. You were living with a captor.

I guess so. He was push and pull. I mean, he never hit me. He never did anything like that. And he would be really nice. And we were working most of the time.

He'd buy you things and seemingly spoil Yes, all kinds of shit. And you were moving to nicer and nicer houses. So it was working.

But that is the cycle of abuse we know now is love bombing mixed with hyper control.

He used to buy me really expensive presents, but it wasn't for me so much. It was to show people who he was.

That he spoiled you. Yeah. Yeah, that was a big, big shot.

Yeah.

Okay, so you guys get divorced. I also think it's really interesting, you did reach out to Lucy Arnaz. I love Lucy. For people to know that history, she, too, was in business with her husband on a show.

And my mom was on that show.

Oh, she was. She acted on it. What did Lucy say? She had had a similar situation with Desi. He was controlling, and he had screwed her out of a bunch of money? Yeah. And what'd she say to you?

Fuck him. Get to get. No, she said, Fuck him. You're the talented one.

Yeah. Were you able to take that in when she said, You're the talented one? Were you able to really be like, Actually, I am.

To own that. Gave me a lot of courage. And David was there. I couldn't have done it without David.

You then go on to record in '71, Gipsy's Tramps and Thiefs, Halfbreed, Dark Lady, The Music Career is starting to now work without Sunny. And then how do we get into Silkwood? Was it calculated or did it come about?

No, I've never calculated anything. I've just been lucky. I went to Mike Nichols once for an audition, and he said, Chair, there are two kinds of women, and you're not the one I want this. And I said to him, I'm talented, and one day you're going to be really upset. You're going to be sorry. So I'm doing Come Back to the Five and Dime. So he came to the matine, and then he came backstage, and he said, You're right, you're talented, and I'm really sorry.

Really?

He said, How would you like to make a movie with Meryl Streep? And I said, Okay, that sounds good.

That sounds right. I fall in love with you for Mask. I think Mask is It was such a special movie.

It was. I had such a horrible time with Peter. It was terrible. The worst experience I ever had.

Bogdanovic? Yeah. He was directing? I don't even think I knew that. Why? Because he has a thing with his actresses.

He didn't like me from the get-go. I don't know how I got hired, but I guess he saw that I would be good at it, but he didn't like me. He didn't really like the characters. He was an Ascot guy.

Yes. And this is about a biker family.

He knew enough to pick the script, but he didn't like the people, and he didn't like me at all.

Really? And how would that present itself? Will he make you do millions of takes?

Would he say condescending things? No, I'll give you one story. We're doing a big scene in the kitchen. So he said, Where do you think it would be good to do this tomorrow? And I said, We'll be in the kitchen all day. Maybe we should go into the little dining room thing. He said, Okay. And then the next morning, he comes in to me. He was eating an egg sandwich. That's the thing I can-Focal point of the experience. That's the grounding of that experience. And he just started, I don't know who you think you are. You're not going to tell me where to... It was crazy. Then we're doing the scene, and Peter comes up to give me a direction, and he puts his hand on the back of my shoulder. And I said, take it off. Don't ever touch me again.

Good for you.

It was over.

Yeah.

You're phenomenal in that movie. You're so good. The other movie I wanted to ask you about because I'm so obsessed with him, but what was happening on Moonstruck with you and Nicolas Cage? That feels like the pairing of a lifetime.

Well, they don't want him in the beginning. Because? They wanted Peter Gallagher, who I love, but he wasn't right. And I had seen Nicki When Peggy Sue Got Married. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I knew he was the only one to play it. And then they said no, and I quit.

Oh, wow. So you were the one pushing for nick Cage? Yeah. Did you know him prior to making it?

I didn't know him. I just knew that only he could do it. I mean, can you see anybody else saying, Christie, give me the big knife?

No, but I'm his number one fan, so he does no wrong in my opinion. I think he's the most exciting actor to watch alive. He had to have had a crush on you, yeah, in real life?

I don't know.

I think so.

I don't remember. I don't think so.

You don't think so?

No, I don't know. I don't know. I have a boyfriend.

It doesn't stop people from having crushes.

Yeah, I While you were in this big chunk, you're having tremendous success as an actor.

Do you want to resume singing? Or are you like, Fuck, this is great. I like doing this. I like doing movies. It's less exhausting. I'm not on the road.

I didn't really have any caché as a singer so much. Also, the songs, they were so formulaic, Gypsies and whatever. So people didn't want to know me, truthfully.

What gets you back in the ring as a singer? Because in '87, which is the same year as Moonstruck, you really share. So you're back at it. What prompted that?

I don't know. You work.

Well, if you go, who cares?

No. You had to. No, I was signed to the company.

Okay. Because you were under contract?

Yeah.

When you have now an explosion of success with your music career in the late '80s, does that come as a surprise to you?

Things in my life just stop. It's like you're this, and then you're You knew and improved. You've reinvented yourself. So I went on the road. I went to the elephant's graveyard. I went to Las Vegas and had a residency.

So you liked the residencies?

Yes, but I felt bad because people were making fun of me.

They were?

Everybody. Not me. I came to see you in your residency.

Shares in the elephant's graveyard because that's where you went. But also I had to make money.

Well, you made a ton of money. It turns out Sonny- Was an idiot. He didn't make a lot of money, but you went on to make a lot of money.

But he had $11 million.

Did that drive you nuts?

I just couldn't believe it.

You had said that at the time, you guys were trying to divide up $24 million in assets, which today is $175 million. You guys have fucking made some money, and you didn't walk with half of that is what you're saying?

I didn't walk with any of it.

None of it. So he won that.

Yeah.

But then you got the last laugh, $100 million. Your tour that you went on in 2002 to 2005 was the highest grossing tour of any female singer of all time. Now, just Taylor's taken the baton.

I was about to say.

I never got to that. I mean, people didn't get to that.

Well, your tour made $250 million 20 years ago, so that's pretty fucking massive. Pretty dang good. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

Also, I have never had luck with men and money. It seems like I'm a target, and there's so many ways to do that with record companies.

So you feel like you've gotten screwed more than once? Yeah. Yeah.

And what do you think that's about?

I think it was a big thing with women in those days. I mean, look, a lot of men were getting screwed, Black men, Black reformers, especially.

Oh, yeah. There's some horrendous Motown stories.

That's another thing. You come from nothing.

They rightly assess, Oh, they'll be fine with this.

Yeah. My managers at that point were taking so much. And my business manager, blah, blah, blah, blah, How do you decide what you're going to do next?

How did you decide, do I do movies or do I continue with this music? What am I supposed to be focusing on? How are you deciding that?

Things come up.

They just present themselves and you say yes or no. But you were never thinking, well, I haven't been in a movie in a while. I need to duck back in and just make sure.

No strategy.

No, just things come your way. I've been lucky. I've been a combination, but more lucky than not. I honestly believe this. There are People are so much more talented than me, but I'm lucky, too. You have to have a certain amount of luck in this business. Yeah.

Okay. My last question is- I didn't think it would ever end.

I know.

I know. I know it's grueling, and we appreciate you.

We do.

Other than Geffen, have you ever had a man that you deserved?

I had two.

Okay, good.

That's good.

I would be sad if you didn't feel like you. If it was zero. Because several of these you did not deserve.

Well, Bill, yes. Gregory is a double-edged sword because he was a kind, fun, talented man that was a drug addict. When we had great times, he was very human and exceptional. And when he was doing drugs, he left. I mean, he would go away and then he'd come back.

Is that the hardest way to end a relationship where it's like the thing that's going to keep you guys apart isn't even an issue between you. It's an issue between him and else. That's got to be the hardest to swallow.

It took me a long time. Robert was a wonderful person. He still is. We still talk to each other. Alexander is a wonderful person.

That's your current boyfriend? Yeah. With the six-year-old.

We're including him in the two, I hope.

Yeah. In the two you deserve. Yeah, we are. We are. We are. And David was wonderful, too.

Did you guys keep a friendship over the years? Because it feels like a special you and Geffen.

Yeah. And Robert.

You're friendly with everyone, even Sonny. Kind of. Yeah.

Well, yeah, not with his wife.

That didn't go well.

No, because she's trying to take all my money.

Sure. She already got more than she should have to begin with. Yeah. Well, Cierra.

It's been fascinating.

I think you're just such an attractive, badass- Sparkly person.

We're lucky to have you.

I like the combo of tough and fragile. Yeah. It's very appealing.

If you have to deal with it, sometimes it's not so much fun.

Have you ever joined a marriage? Have you tried that yet? Were you joining an existing marriage? No.

He's offering you to join their marriage.

Yeah, I swing through.

This will be your emotional support marriage.

She'll move in with you. She just wants me to get the fuck out of the picture, I think.

Kristenristen will be a third you deserve. No.

Not even.

Well, Shera, again, I'm incredibly grateful that you came all the way out here to see us. I I love your book, and I proselytize about it. I think it's phenomenal. I think it'll blow people's mind. It's so honest.

I have a question. What's the most thing that you like about it?

You're not going to be destroyed or dominated by unfortunate events. There's no self-pity in your story, even though you're entitled to a lot of it. And I like that. And I actually think that's a pretty good message for younger people to be reading currently. True.

But it's like, I have to work at this all the time because I'm fragile as my mom. I'm fragile as people in my family. So I am always trying to remember who I am innately. But sometimes it's a struggle.

You say things like this in the book. I I almost got my ass kicked for being a pussy. I love it. I wrote down, I don't know where I got the balls. There's no thrills.

Strange shooter. It sounds like me.

I almost got my ass kicked for being a pussy. It sounds like my mom. That's just not what you're going to read from a brand new movie star right now.

That definitely sounds like the way you chat. It's authentic. That's what's so attractive.

There's a pressure on people to have dealt with their own trauma in a very accepted way. I like when people don't deal with their trauma that way. Mine was active like yours was. There was violence, there was addiction. Couldn't be more grateful. Ultimately, I'm in this house with this woman and these two kids. I wouldn't change a thing. You're lucky. Right. It's golden.

She's definitely the better half.

Yeah.

I don't know about that. I also think it's really helpful for people to know you as Cher and who's so strong and, sorry, iconic, and also know that you were controlled, that you were in positions that you shouldn't have been in. It's helpful for people because I think they think, Oh, she's so strong and she just whatever. It's good to hear there was hard stuff along the way. I think that's helpful.

This is how I think of myself. I thought of myself as a bumper car, and you hit the wall, and you either hit the wall and stayed there, or you hit the wall and come back, and you go that way.

Who would you like to see Kristin with? If you got to pick from every available bachelor. Oh, they don't even have to be available. They can be some taken ones if you want. Who would be your dream partner for her? Because I know you think she could be better. And I don't disagree I agree. Who would be your pick?

I don't know.

Brett Pitt, maybe?

He's being self-deprecating right now.

I just want to know who she thinks your dream catch would be. There's some people I have that I think are good.

You've never thought about that. No.

She just She's just not sold yet on me.

She's not sold yet.

Well, you don't have the relationship that we have.

I don't have the talent of either of you guys. So I mean, that part is- No, but the truth is I trust her, so you must have something that I don't see. Yeah, there you go.

We're pulling that clip, by the way. That's incredible.

Yeah, that's incredible.

But Reese Witherspoon said that, too. She said, there's something about a smart, strong, awesome, funny woman. If they're with a man, you're like, there must be something to that man. Absolutely.

There's a lot to this man.

He's tall. No, I'll tell you the thing that you should like about me.

Okay.

I'm not threatened by her shining. I love it. That's true. The shinier she gets, the better.

Alexander is that way, too. The more I shine, the more he has one.

That's beautiful. Guys who polish you.

That's my offering, I would say.

Guys who polish you so you shine more. You sometimes tease me. You know what I do is I have my burlesque wig still on a head, and I have it on one of those sticky things in the closet. Sometimes I go in there because it's a very expensive wig. I brush it and Dax goes, You're playing with your doll?

Did Renata make it?

Yeah, of course.

Don't be silly. It's a very expensive wig. Yeah.

And I always say she's playing with her doll. Like, how much? What does that look like?

$5,000?

Wow. Yeah, I say 5 to 7 for sure. Yeah, $27,000. Lace front, fitted.

She was the best one that ever lived.

That's awesome.

And you got to comb it. You got to once every six months. You have to check in with those weeks. You got to go in there and spend some time combing.

Yeah, play with your doll.

Play with your doll. Well, Shera, I adore you, and I understand nobody's good enough for her, and I expect that to be your reaction.

Trust me, he's a slow burn, but you're going to learn to love him.

He's good enough for your time. Yes, almost too good for me.

And you seem like a good dad.

He's the best dad there ever was.

I put on a good show when the guests are here.

That's not a show. That was the first hug I had given my daughter in two years. That's not true. Just because you were here. I wanted to impress you. You haven't even seen me with my shirt off yet, which you'll see on the way out.

That's pretty premium as well.

All right. I adore you. Thanks for making the time. Okay. Thank you, Sherry. I'll get you on the next one. Stay tuned for more of Our Share Expert, if you dare. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. You know what's really funny about this studio? What? It's almost the exact same size, but we are about 18 inches further apart than we are in LA. Can you feel that or no?

Weirdly, no.

Like you're distal.

Really? Can you even see me?

I can't. That's what I was... Let me put my glasses on. They're reading glasses, so they're the opposite.

Don't put your glasses on because I feel like I look better when I'm a little fuzzy.

From afar. Better from afar. I look best from afar.

I'm happy birthday.

Oh, thank you. It's my friend's birthday today. It is. It's not a very fun age.

No, it's a good age.

Well, just there's a landmark 50. Yeah, I know. Which we had. That's over. No more 50s. That's right. And then 51 is just like, okay.

But I was talking to, I don't remember who about this, but they were saying that there's a mental trick where you should feel young when you're at the early stage of the decade. So '51, '52, you're young.

Okay. 54 is when we got to start sounding the alarm, probably.

No, like '57. Okay. Okay? Okay. But it works in all decades. So right now, I'm 38, so I'm feeling old. Yes. But I'm about to feel young again.

You're about to be a young 40-year-old.

Exactly. Boom. Yeah. Optimism.

What are your thoughts about turning 40?

Yeah, it's weird because a lot of my friends from home, from Georgia, who is of my class, are turning 40 this year. Not me, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Were you a year younger than everyone? When?

Well, I was born in August, and I started kindergarten when I was four.

Oh, my goodness. A little baby. Yeah, you are a wunderkind. But you turned 39 in August.

I do.

Okay, so you got a year and eight months.

Yes, I have time.

But I feel- From my perspective, 40 feels great. Yeah, I feel good about it. To be turning 40 sounds wonderful.

The only thing, of course, that is a little scary is kids. I just saw on Instagram, This woman's pregnant, she's 45.

Seventy-one.

She's the right faith. She's in her early 70s.

Early. So she's young. I was just telling the girls on our vacation, we were... Well, A, Deltie was saying how She can't wait to have a baby. Yeah. Which, yeah. Of course. She's going to really, really do it well. Yeah. For people who don't know, our life is a traveling circus of Deltie stuffies. That's right. The bulk of our luggage as a family is her stuffies. And now there's... I've already forgotten the names of them.

Liberti?

No, I know Liberti's name. There's a new class of toys that are these 3D printed things. Oh, I know. Yeah. And somehow she needs a lot of those.

They're cute, though.

Sure. But they're tiny and they get lost a lot.

They're trinkets.

At least Groot, we had... When we were trying to find Groot at the Monster Jam.

Oh, shit.

You're like, okay, he's a foot and a half tall. You can get an APB on the guy.

Yeah, that's right.

All points, bulletin. Guys about two feet tall. Yeah. But these are microscopic. Anyways, there's that. And then, do you know about fuggles?

Well, I learned about fugglers because I took Delta on her shopping spree. That's our tradition for her birthday, and she wanted fugglers.

Yeah, fuck load of fugglers.

I cannot with these young... The young generation loves ugly.

But I did, too. Really? What? You didn't have that? Well, we had Garbage Pell kids, and they were the most collectible thing of my whole youth.

And they were ugly.

Yeah, it was like Fatsy Nancy. These are bad. These are outdated. They're old. They're old. Gay Mike. No, that wasn't one.

But can you imagine? Oh, God. But it could have been.

Black Sarah. Oh, my God. You don't know. It was the '80s.

Oh, no.

Oh, no. No, they were terrible. Do you know that's courage?

I only know. Maybe you've talked about them, but I didn't collect them, or I I don't really know about them.

That's probably the only thing I got obsessed with as a kid. It was like there was first edition, but by the time I got into them, they were already on second or third edition. So you really wanted these first edition ones. My cousin Jamie had all of them. He was pretty good at giving me doubles. Anyways- Oh, that's nice. When all that is, is like, I look at these fugglers. And for people who don't know what fugglers are, they're these little stuffed animals, and they have human teeth in them.

They're ugly. They are. But they're cute. I mean, literally, they're ugly. That stands for fucking ugly. Oh, is that what? Fuggly?

Oh, you're right. Fugglers.

Fugglers from the movie Mean Girls.

Yeah.

Nasty. And it means butt fucking ugly.

Wait, butt fucking ugly? I'm going to go with a competing brand called Bufugglies.

And what are they going to have?

Well, this is a butt fucking ugly.

So is the butt human flesh?

Yeah, it will harvest. We'll harvest human flesh.

Yeah. Well, I guess the original Fuggler was a woman who made this little creature and put real teeth in it.

Real human teeth?

Yes.

Why? I wonder where she got those.

Where does one get- So I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she wanted to preserve her children's baby teeth. I've decided this. So she made this little creature to put the teeth in there, but then people- Loved it. Loved it, I guess. So now, fugglers that you buy, they're not human teeth, but they look like human teeth.

This is probably one of these overnight. This person is probably a billionaire. I know. Because we had to have all the fugglers, and we got fugglers for everybody.

Yeah.

This episode was brought to you by fugglers.

Please sponsor us, fugglers.

Anyway, so she's saying she wants to have a baby, and I said, When do you think you'll have your first child? When you turn 18? Oh, okay. And she, I want to be supportive of whatever. Sure, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't plan any seeds that I'd be judgmental or whatever. And she said, No, 18, what do you think I really... And I said, My guess is between 35 and 45 is when I think We still have kids. I said, And I think, if you want to, we'll freeze your eggs when you're 18. Wow, I love that. I'll pay for you to get your eggs frozen so you don't have to think about that.

Yeah, that's lovely.

Because your issue is just when you started freezing eggs, right? Like, had you started at 14- I think you might have to be a certain age before you even had your period.

No, I don't know because I I never looked. You didn't look into it. Yeah, I didn't look into it. So maybe I always had a low count. I do think the earlier, the better. Yes.

And I'm thinking, look, acknowledging all lucky privilege. Obviously, this is an option for most people. But I think given where it's the trajectory, it would make the most sense. I think they're going to be wrestling with the same thing every woman is like, you're going to want to do your career or whatever the hell. So anyway, all to say, she was like, No, that's great. That's too old. Now, again, she's 11, so that probably seems like 80.

Yeah, but... Yeah.

She's thinking mid-20s. Okay.

That's fine. Whatever. I think whatever she does is going to be great. Yeah, me too. But I do think she's underestimating what mid-20s feels like. Yep, I think she is.

And how much fun, particularly, she'll be having.

It's just so fun.

It won't be time for her to be in the house every night with the child.

I was thinking about that, Sim, eight minutes ago because I just arrived. While we were recording? Okay, 80 minutes ago because I just arrived in Nashville and came from the airport. I don't know why I was thinking this, but I moved to LA when I was 22. Oh, really? Yeah. I've never thought about that. I always think like, Oh, I've been there 15 years or I've been there 16 years or whatever. And then I was like, oh, my God, that was a big move.

That's a big deal. 22s are babies. Yeah.

Yeah. If I know a 22-year-old now and they say, I'm going to move across the country, I'd probably say, whoa, that's a big deal.

Yes.

So I was proud of myself.

You should be. Yeah. I know. Similarly, Hi, Schneekly. Come on. You can sit here. Hi, Aaron is here. Jeff, can you turn that other mic on? Hi, Jeff. That's Jeff. So disappointingly about Jeff, he's from New Orleans, but he doesn't have a Cajun accent. Ant.

Jeff.

Jeff. Ant. Sorry. I was on the verge of boring him with the story. Do you remember Aaron and I? We went to... Aaron and I went over Christmas, probably senior year, to... We just wanted warmth. We pulled out the Rand Mcnally map because there was no internet. At the back of the Rand Mcnally map, it had a chart with monthly average temperatures for cities around the country.

I remember this now.

We just looked in the warmest place in the entire graph in the contiguous US was Corpus Christi, Texas. Yes. We're like, Let's go there. It'll be warm. Oh, boy. We drove to Corpus Christi, Texas. We got there and we're like, What is this weird place? It was this pavement. Have you ever been there?

I don't think I've been.

Okay, mind you, this was also 92 or three. 92. No restaurants, no coffee, nothing. It was like a banking-Was it warm?

It was like a banking- It was warm, wasn't it?

So we were in that city for a toll of an hour.

It was just cement and no businesses.

I can remember sitting on the cement in front of the bank building going like, What are we doing here? We just drove for two days to get to this cement.

But you still had fun because you guys are friends.

Then we got out the Rand McNally, Monica.

Okay.

We were like, What are we by? And we were by Padre Islands right across- South Padre.

The Bridge from Corpus Christi.

But I think we were North Padre.

South Padre.

We ended up on this section. There was federal beach for five miles and state beach for 10 miles. You could drive on the beach. We drove the car there. This is where we brought speedos with us. Microbrief underwears. Sure.

You've seen the pictures? Yeah.

Have I seen pics? Of us at the beach in our microbriefs. We also have winter gloves on. Sure. I think you've seen it. Aaron's posted it.

We can post it for this episode.

Zax is hitchhiking with a winter glove and a bikini bottom.

And a speedo. And a little blue bikini bottom. I don't even know why we needed to do that stuff because there was really no one there.

I know, but that's how you guys have been operating your whole lives. It's just for each other. It's very pure.

Very pure. Okay, all to say, we then were there for a few days. We met the weirdest cast of characters who live on these beaches, and they go from the federal beach to the state beach back and forth, and they live there all year long. But you can only be there for 10 and five days, respectively, so they move back and forth.

Volkswagen busses and whatnot.

Yeah, drinking beer, all that stuff. A jellyfish all over the beach that popped when we drove. That was memorable. When you're driving, it's like, pop, pop, pop, pop, You're not playing bubbles. You're driving.

They're like that and inflated. Do they have blood? Not that we saw. Their blood's jelly.

It's clear Pepsi. Then we were like, Let's go to New Orleans.

The best.

We had never been. We crossed Alligator Alley. We're getting close-ish. Again, no internet, no phones. Go over to a gas station, ask a guy how to get to Bourbon Street. I was in there for 12 minutes. I came out and I got back in the car and Aaron goes, Did he tell you where to go? I go, No idea what he said.

Sure, you can understand.

Twelve minutes. Got to buy the best of the right thing? Uh-uh. We're all over there, man. Yeah, I just came in like, We got to go to another gas station. I'm not going to find out. It's such a unique place.

I love it there. I haven't been in a lot. You love it? Oh, yeah. You do. We went in college. It was so fun.

I'm going. When? To do the Isaacson's Telene, remember? He asked me to come to his Tulane Book Festival.

Tulane Book Festival?

Yeah. And I'm going. When is it? I think in March.

I want to go.

Go to the Book Festival.

I love books.

You love it. You love I'm good to start books. Yeah, I do.

I finished a book, though, over the break. You did which one? It's called Heart the Lover. It's a very popular book right now. I bet Ruthie's read it. With women?

Did you read it with your eyes or your ears?

My eyes. Yes.

That's how Ruthie reads.

I can't read with my ears. I'm deficient in that. But I finished it. It was really sad. It was. It made me feel melancholy.

For the holidays? Yeah. Well, okay.

Great. Just for...

Which is what you want.

I did think when I finished, because the last time I was home, I finished a book, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, which is my favorite book I've read in the past decade, and that also made me feel so melancholy. It did. Then when I finished Heart the Lover, I thought, I shouldn't read.

Well, you should read a different genre for sure.

But reading has a way- Maybe a Jack Reacher book or Tom Clancy. I'm not that interested.

Harvin Corland. Wait, her and Corbin?

Reese Witherspoon's partner. What? Yeah, they wrote her book together. But no, I think books are the medium that cuts the deepest. Yeah.

Don't you think? You can form your identity around a book, not a movie.

Yes, exactly. Well, I did form my identity around a TV show and a movie, to be fair.

That's true. You were susceptible, though.

I guess. I get I'm just sensitive to art.

Was it you that was telling me most of your music you discover from TV shows? Yes. Yeah. I do have to say one funny thing about my birthday before we move on.

Yes.

We don't have to move on. Well, let's move on. It's already been indulgent. No. But Kristin had written me a birthday card that was on my sink when I woke up, which was lovely or after I meditated. And it said, Happy 52nd birthday. And I thought, Oh, that's a funny bit. Just be off by one year. That was definitely a bit. Then I got into the interior of the card, what was written. Then we went back to being 52. I was like, She definitely thinks I'm 52.

Did she tell you that?

We've since talked because then I read the whole thing. Then I got busy talking to a neighbor. Then I came back into the bathroom, and then she was in there at the time fixing the car. Changing it. Changing it to one. I go, Hon, you got my age wrong? She's like, Well, I did the math from '74.

Oh, it's like, that's the wrong year.

I'm like, That's the problem. I was born in '74.

Your neighbors came over, and I came over and met them. We were sitting there and they're like, Oh, it's his birthday today. I go, '51, baby. And Kristin goes, No, '52.

Oh, oh.

But by the way, I'm going to drag her a little bit. You would remember last year was my 50. That's more my... If you can't keep '57, '56 sixth Street? Duh. I probably won't be able to either. But just last year was 50.

I thought she was doing a bit with me, too.

I will say this. For some reason, that birthday party, your roller-skating party, feels like a really long time ago. Does it? Yeah. I don't know why, because this year went by very fast, I think. But I think a lot happened this year.

I did, too. I'm having a lot of what you're explaining right now. There are many events. The award show season is the one right now where I'm like, we were just at these award shows with Kristen. Sure. Because I guess probably Emmys is the latest one. And then what is that? That's in the fall.

That was recently. Is that in the fall? I think it's in September.

Okay, so probably I'm getting a little confused by that. So, yeah, there's all these different things where it's like, Well, that feels like that was two months ago. Yet then there's an event that was on the day before that does feel like two years ago.

Yeah, I know. Time is all- Time is very- Scanty-wrapping.

Yeah, it's very topsy-turvy that way.

Can I tell you guys, now that we're on the subject of the awards? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so this will be out on Monday. Happy New Year, everyone. Happy 2026.

Even year, it's going to be a good one.

It's going to be a good year. I feel it. So we're going to the Golden Globes. So exciting. Yeah. Next Sunday. Yeah. This Sunday. This, tomorrow. Yeah. And I've been on a real ride over this break. So I've been really humbled. Okay. But humbled to the point where I just felt worthless. Okay. It's a real high- The ultimate hunger.

It's a real- The game you're playing.

It is a roller coaster because, of course, it's so incredible that we are nominated, that we're getting to go. It's done.

It's already- It's already- enough already happened.

Exactly. It's already incredible. First year podcasting. It's so special. It really is so I'm so proud of this. I'm trying to get a stylist. I cannot get one- It's a busy night. For the life of me. I really started like, I was like, Oh, my God. I am so worth. I'm ugly. You're bottom of the barrel.

Oh, you went ugly? Of course.

I'm like, I'm so ugly. No one even will get near me.

What if that's how stylists did it. They looked at pictures of the people.

I think they might. Do you think?

I think they might. Do you think they'd rather sit home without a job?

That was my point. I'm like, Don't these people like money? I don't understand. This is a job. But I think there is a lot of politics and there is a lot of- Also, it's just the busiest night of the year for stylists. And they already have clients, and they're already working with clients, and it's like, it's last minute. And I That's what I'm being told. But in my heart.

But for me on the outside, I'm like, Girl, this is me hiring someone to tell me how to, what, motorcycle the ride to the Globes. What? No, I got that covered.

I know. Okay, but that's also part of it.

If there were anything you couldn't get help with, this would be my pick for you.

That's right. But I did think... It just got so big in my head. I was like, I have to look so good because I I do care. I care about fashion, and I want people to say, Oh, my God, she looks great. A stylist does do some things I can't do, tailor perfect. They know things like that.

The finishing touches. Exactly. The accoutrement, the accessories, the jewelry.

At one point, I was like, I have a dress. I do. I have this vintage dress that I love and I think will be great.

I just had this incredible image of you. And do you I remember when she dresses up E. T. In that grandma outfit? There's just so much stuff. I just pictured you on the right card with seven necklaces, three purses, a bunch of pearls, huge earrings, a crazy hat. I should do that.

I should just throw in the guy.

You should look up the picture and dress exactly like E. T. As the grandma. I really should. Oh, man.

At least that would be funny.

Anyway, yeah. And I'll come as the little boy in the Puffer jacket he wore the whole movie. Oh, yeah.

That would be cute.

That would be so cute. I'll carry you in a milk crate, on the front of the bicycle. We'll be rolled up on the fucking right carpet on a bicycle. And you were in a milk crate dressed as that great of all. What's that outfit? Oh, my God.

That would be so great. Anyway, so now I'm going on my own, but not really. So luckily, and this is truly a miracle, Okay. But it makes sense. So there's a designer that I love, an amazing designer, Brandon Maxwell. He is an arm cherry.

Oh, thank God, Brandon. Thank God for Brandon. Perfect.

Thank God. Yeah. So he had DMed me years ago and said he loved the show, and I could not believe it because he's amazing. And then he popped in my head, of course, when all this was going on. I was like, Should I just reach out directly? You're not really supposed to do that. You're not. These stylists go to the designers, and then it's a whole thing. Sure. I was like, well, I guess I have to. I got to hack the system. That's what I do in my life. You just got to keep plowing forward. Exactly. So then I DMed him and he said, I heard on the podcast, congratulations. That's amazing. I was going to reach out to you. I'd be so honored. No. Yes. Oh, yeah. And so he is going to provide me an incredible dress. It was just really... I felt like I really needed that little boost.

Send them E. T. As an inspiration photo.

I will. No, it makes sense, though, that it would, of course, be an arm cherry that came through.

Yes. So, of course.

Of course. That's what gave me all of this. But I really went on a real ego ride.

What days were these? This was before Christmas or post-Christmas?

Oh, the whole time.

The whole Christmas. When did you hear from Brandon? This This morning?

Like three days ago. Three days.

So you've had a good three day. You're back.

Yeah, I'm back.

Okay. Let's quickly go through a little bit of Christmas morning. Okay. In Georgia, how was it?

It was really nice. My brother and his girlfriend.

You met your brother's girlfriend?

I did, and she's lovely. What's her name? Her name's Emily. Emily. Shout out, Emily. She's so good for my brother. She's very cute. She's easy. Anyway, so, yeah, Christmas was lovely. What about you?

Aaron, did you get anything nice? Yeah.

Yeah, I got a T-shirt that said, Really great station.

Ruthie got him The official merch. The official merch.

That's great. Yeah, and I was like, Wow, this is actually the nicest T-shirt I think I've ever- Isn't it nice?

I agree. That one in particular.

I put it on, I'm like, Okay, now this is next level. The quality is The quality and the color and the whole... Having had living in Georgia during that time, I was like, wow, this is like...

Full circle. The best.

It is, yeah.

I love that shirt. As Murphy's Law would have it, I have two of them. Both of them, where you get one of those weird oily stains. Yeah, you did it already.

Up to both of them. I'm positive. You're going to do it. I think that was my first The worry when I put it on was, I'm going to do something to this. You're going to. Even when I was just grabbing two shirts to come here for two days, I didn't grab it because I was thinking of all the eating we might be doing.

Yes, that's smart.

But instead, I'm wearing a white shirt. I don't care about that.

We can throw that in the trash.

Right. I mean, that is true.

But I'm always when I put it on, I'm trying to evaluate, do I care when people have a little oil staying on? It's fine. I I can't decide if it's even a thing or not. I think it's fine. Because I love that shirt.

You have to keep wearing it. I guess this is going to be impossible not to get an oil staying on.

In these games we play, you're nailing something so on the head that I play these weird games. I could get, I presume, unlimited numbers of those shirts. There are merch, but I'm not. I'm dealing with the two that are stained that I've had for two months now. Instead of pulling anyone else. Then I definitely wouldn't bring it like you. Really? The new shirt I love, I better not bring it. Anything I like, I try I don't want to use.

That is so funny.

I do get that. Anything I like, I don't want to use.

I've ruined my Ted Seeger's hat from sweating so horribly in it, playing pick-up-ball, washing it the way I shouldn't have. And instead of grabbing another one out of the box because it's our merch, I fucking hate it. I put it on my head once in a while and it's not right anymore, but I still won't grab another one.

What is that? I think you guys- He doesn't even sound familiar to you, does it? I feel like it's the shared child at some point.

It probably is a scarcity mentality, slash like, I messed up, so I don't deserve another one or something. There's probably about about deserving.

Her guilty conscience.

Yeah, exactly.

We don't.

We don't.

You do deserve- That was ever a question.

You deserve the merch of the brands you invented.

Yes. I'm not sure about I do want to say one thing about time.

My dad retired.

Already or coming up next week?

He retired on New Year's Eve. On New Year's Eve. Was his last day.

He had to do his exit interview. And today's the second. He's probably in the deepest depression he's been in in his whole life.

I'm trying to... I think Monday will be a little harder because that's- What's he going to do Monday morning? Okay, well, this is, of course, my dad. He is going to do some contract work. Yeah, he's going to go back to work. So he's basically doing part-time work.

Sure, that's a new job Monday.

Yeah.

Well, at the same company.

At the same company, too. He's basically just staying. But it is a big deal. I mean, he's about to turn 72. He's been working his whole life.

He's so spry. In my mind, he's like, 60.

I know. I agree. I know. He kept saying, I'm 72. And I was like, I don't want to hear that. Stop that. Stop saying it. And then it was so funny on New Year's Eve, right when the ball dropped, he was like, I have Medicare. He was so excited that he now has Medicare. For him, it's a way. He's been working the system his whole life. It's like he's been saving for retirement his whole life.

His plan is coming- It's here.

To fruition. It's here, which to me- That's what's dangerous about life.

Continue.

Yeah, because to me, if I did that, if it was like, Oh, my God, I'm saving for a mat of care. And then it's here, I would be very depressed. Not only did I work and my work identity is over, it's like I work towards a thing, and now that's here now.

And this is the thing. Yeah. This is what it's like to have all your ducks in a row and you have done it perfectly. How does it feel? And then you're like, Oh, it's fine.

Exactly. It's just another day.

It's all a mental trick.

I know. But because he's retired, I want the world to know that he has a little more time to spend on the sim.

Oh, so things could really...

It's going to be a big year for my family, so he need to make some time.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare. Okay, so now we have a new fun thing for Mondays, which is we get to do the fact check seamlessly. That's right.

That's right. We're so excited about this. So this This is for Cher. My mom, it was funny because I guess my mom loved Cher.

Oh, okay.

Growing up.

That makes sense.

Yeah. She said, I saw you were editing Cher. And she was like, How was that? I told her, I was like, Sunny took all her money, and she was so shocked. And then she was like, Yeah, from the outside, when they got divorced, it was so sad.

Yeah.

And she's like, You just never know what's really going on.

And it's so cool. They continue to do their show after they were divorced.

Yeah.

Oh, they did? Yeah. Was she like, real young?

Yes. When that started- She moved in with Sunny when she was 16.

Different times. Yeah, exactly.

That was a lot of the episode.

She's got a story about fucking warm baby When she was 16 and he's like a 30-year-old man. I don't know the age.

Oh, that's a fact. Oh, it is. Okay, we can do it now. Sher was born in 46. You can do fast math on your birthday. Okay, 46. She's 79. She was born in May of 46.

That's when she was born yesterday.

And Lauren was born in March of '37.

What was her year of birth?

'46.

They're not as- Okay, nine years. So he was maybe I was 27 or 26, and she was 17.

It's not as much as I was expecting.

That's not too bad. That's all right. We can certainly live with that in the '60s and '70s.

Yeah, I know. Really different time. But what was funny is she said... She was like, It was a time, but I did have to lie and say I was 18. So it was like, she still knew, but she was saying you had to lie because the men wouldn't- Fuck you. Fuck you unless you were 18.

Or have you around.

Because they thought you were babyish. Or just it was illegal.

So depending on what state you're in, maybe.

I even grew up in an era where it was like, check, well, A, okay. A, okay. And then B, how old is she? Check her license. That awareness of is she really That stuff was going on even in the '90s. We were watching last night Beverly Hills Cop 2 with the whole crew and all the little kids, and Lincoln goes in the middle of the movie. Was every guy in the '80s a huge pervert? I go, Well, we still are. We just are much quieter about it now. But the movie you forget. It's like when I watched Chips with them the other day, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so perverted. I didn't think I was this perverted, but now that they're watching with me, I realize it. But there's just these random scenes like, Yeah, let's find the pussy. Let your dicks do the walk in. Now, wake up, dick.

They're like, Let your dick point the way.

It's just like a big blockbuster summer movie.

That's how we were.

How long does it take you to shave those legs? You need me to be your groomer?

I'm offering my grooming services. He just met her.

Hot. Get a lot of cashmere that way. Yeah. Speaking of your movie, your movie situation at this house, last time, you were doing Tom Cruise's Cruises. I was going to text you that my family did Tom's Cruises Cruises, but it was short-lived because the movie we started was Eyes Wide Shut.

No, that's not a family movie.

Why did you guys pick that one? Because when I was flying home, I was listening to a podcast, and someone said it was their favorite Christmas movie. I was like, Oh. I was like, I've never seen it. I know it's sexual, but I've never seen it. If it's Christmas-y, we're going to watch it. That night, me and my mom and my dad turned on Eyes Wide Shut.

It's a porno.

It was a literal porn. Orgies. Everyone's so naked, and I'm sitting there with my mom and my dad. How's that feel? It's like this was a horrible mistake. I was like, I am old because I'm not that uncomfortable.

Oh, good.

Yeah. I was like, Okay, I don't like this. This isn't recommended. But it's tolerable. But I can...

Because at 18, you would have died, right? Oh, my God. Yeah, your dad would have died.

Well, actually- My dad probably would have left.

He might have left, yeah. I will say no, now that I'm a dad and I'm older, the stuff I thought my parents thought, they didn't think. Yeah. I'm not uncomfortable.

Really? No.

Yeah.

Maybe he wasn't.

They're like these... Your kids are these... They're a whole different category of human.

Yeah. I get that.

I don't know how to explain it. It's just like all that stuff I thought maybe my parents were uncomfortable at the same time, they weren't. They're just your dumb little kids, and then they grow up, but they're still your dumb little kids.

But not the other way. For kids- You're mortified. Yeah, you're like, I don't want my dad to be watching this. Exactly. Nipples.

Sexuality. What's he thinking? Yes. I guess that's my point. That's how I could simply say it. Acknowledging your parents are sexual is deeply creepy. Yes. Acknowledging your children are sexual is not. It's not a thing. It's like, oh, yeah, they're the little human creatures, and they're going to be sexual, and they're going to have boyfriends, and that's all exciting for them. It's not creepy, but your parents are like, oh, God. Did you ever hear your mother making love? Yeah. You did? Well, they lived in a very small- Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Erin's mom is so fucking sweet, too. She might be the sweetest lady I've ever met in my life.

Oh, my God. My mom said she listened to Mom's Car. Oh, okay. Or watched it on YouTube. I talked to her, and we don't talk often. She said she started crying and she said, I am so sorry that I didn't... For childhood, pretty much. I was like, Where does that come from? She goes, I listened to your episode.

I was like, I don't even know what he said.

Then I was asking Ruth, she goes, I think it was that you guys were talking about budge and throwing. I was like, Oh, for fuck's sake. My mom was like, Would you ever guess she would be listening to that?

Yeah, I know. But I would never guess she listened to it. And then, does she listen to it? If my kids are on a podcast when I'm older, I'm going to listen.

But they shouldn't listen.

I deal with this with my mom, but I'm in a really lucky situation, which is like, I often... In fact, the only person I'm reading my memoir to is my daughters and my mom. That's nice. In She is going through a lot of that stuff. I can imagine. I'm just constantly going, Mom, I'm fucking... I hit the lottery. Whatever the recipe is, I'm so happy. I literally, I don't say any of this with regrets are of sadness. It's just like, Well, here are the facts. But we've been going through that a lot for two years as I'll write certain events, and then I'll read them to her. It's, I think, good because then we have a good hour chatting about it all. Her reaction, I wonder what your mom's is. My mom's is just mostly, Yeah, wow. All that happened, and it feels like 10 lives ago, and I can't really connect all that. And yet I know that all happened. And I'm like, Yeah, same. It doesn't mean anything. It's just what it is.

I never wanted to talk to my mom about anything.

I know. That's one of these things. Because then you end up feeling guilty, and it's like, I don't want to feel guilty about this. It's a weird cycle that starts happening. Yeah.

What you really want to say is like, Well, this is the truth. I have zero resentment against it. I have no ill feelings about anything. Yeah. I'm just like, That's cool, man. We all took a wild ride.

Also, you guys are parents, so you could, I assume, imagine that if you heard your kids Oh. Talking about some horrible stuff, you would also want to say, I'm sorry for that. Yeah. True. Yeah. So maybe it was good for her that she got to say that to you. Yeah.

It's not like she doesn't know.

Yeah, exactly. Sure.

Yeah. Maybe it was a good outlet. Yeah. Same with my mom. Maybe it was a good outlet. Yeah. I think she's been able to say, I'm really sorry. I'm like, Yeah, you don't need to be.

It's fine. Yeah.

You were fucking 22 years old. I know. Two kids. It's a lot. Yeah. Sure. Very on topic.

It is on topic.

You would love her book, dude. I think I might have already told you this. I loved it. She talk about a wild fucking ride.

She did through it.

Yeah. And she's been an adult since she was nine years old.

Yeah. Okay, so Prim, Nevada. Remember she said Prim?

I brought up her mom's boyfriend was a man with the last name Prim.

Exactly.

Who owned a casino. And I thought maybe he started Prim, Nevada, the whole town. But she didn't know.

So the casinos and resorts in Prim, Nevada are primarily operated by Affinity Gaming, though they were originally developed by the Prim family, Ernest and Gary Prim. It's got to be. Right? Yeah. Gary Prim. It says who the town is named after. Mm-hmm. That's cool. I looked up, Are you born with your temper? Okay. Because she said her dad had no temper, so she could relate to him because of that, because the rest of her family has a big temper. It says you're not born with a specific temper, but you are born with a temperament, a baseline for emotional reactivity that's influenced by genetics around 20 to 60 %. And and shaped by your environment and learned behaviors. Meaning some people have a natural predisposition to frustration or strong emotions that can be managed or worsened by how they're raised and experience life. I have a bad temper, I think.

Yeah. You're like, real bad? I have a bad temper, I think. Crickets. I don't know. Do you?

Sure.

I'm easily frustrated. I'll say that.

Yeah, you don't have temper. Well, no, you have your tantrum. Oh, yeah, but those are fun.

Those are fun tantrums. Yeah, yeah.

Playful tantrum.

But I don't think I get angry that fast. Maybe I do.

I don't have a thought, just so you know.

You can have a thought. No, no, I have none. It's your birthday, so you get to be whatever it is.

No, I have none. I'm evaluating you real-time with you as you explore this.

I have a short piece.

What I think is your mercurial. That's worse. No, mercurial sounds cool.

It sounds cool, but it is bad.

No, it just means that you have a lot of ebbs and flows in your disposition.

Yeah, but mercurial is like- This is funny.

We're going too long, but I got to say, I couldn't not observe it. I think there's so many funny gender things. I just constantly see them. Then as I enter different age groups, I see the gender thing play out differently. But we went to this very special place in the Bahamas over the break, and everyone's well to do. I just was observing, I think, men, we just don't want any emotions. We're so afraid of emotions. We don't know what to do with them. Then we get resentful at you if you have them. We're constantly, if we're in a position to, we're trying to create the perfect environment where everyone will be happy, which can't happen, obviously, but you think it can. You go, well, take everyone to where it's warm and it's a nice house. Clearly everyone will be happy for six days. That's, of course, not the case because you can't buy your way into just being in a good mood.

No, you can't.

I'm experiencing that, but mostly, then I get distracted by noticing, Oh, all the dads here are Exactly. I'm watching a table with a meltdown happening, and I can just see on the guy's face, Fucking Amy, and I brought everyone here, and the food's good, and it's sunny. Why is everyone so upset? Oh my God. I do that, too. Do you do that? Yeah.

I'm like, So I pay for it?

You think you can create the perfect situation where you'll control, really, what I think as a guy, you're trying to control is just no emotions.

I know, which is like, guys- You are loved ones.

I like loved ones.

I know. You guys I only want the good ones, but it's just that's not real. That's not how it works. Actually, I can't say this about Aaron because I've never seen it. But you have negative emotions. Never. Yes, you do. They come up and they affect people, too. And that's life. It's okay.

Yeah, but vacations should be perfect.

I know. That's why we went there. We all declared this was going to be a perfect week. That's the compact.

But look, that's also your expectations.

I was crazy sick. Still, I'm a bit sick, but with my brother to New York, really, really sick. But no one heard about it. I wasn't laying in bed and people were bringing me things, and I wasn't like, Oh, my God, I'm so sick. But some people got a little feeling less than perfect on the trip, and it's just a big event that they're sick.

I know. Is that not a gender thing? No, I actually think- It's not.

Oh, there's men that are- Yeah, I think men can't handle being sick, personally.

But I think just because you don't share that you're sick doesn't mean other people shouldn't say that they're sick or get taken care of. You're with your brother, so that's probably why.

Neither of us knew how to take care of me.

Yeah, but if you were home, you get taken care of.

People do try to take care of me, for sure. I don't do well with that, and I try to minimize you seeing that I need any help.

But you're right.

It's probably just me. It's probably not male/female.

Do you like being taken care of?

Well, I wish I could lie.

Don't lie.

But I can't lie. It's been getting pretty ridiculous. I like to be taken care of.

Taking care of? Yes. Good. Erin, good. I'm glad you're saying that. It's a good feeling.

I mean, it's limited to one person I'll complain to, but I'm like, Yeah, it I'm turning into that a bit.

Oh, good. It feels good to have someone take care of you.

It feels safe. It's nice.

Well, and I've always been taken care of by Dax.

Yeah.

He's always been the caretaker who can't show weakness.

He can't receive.

I don't know how to take care of him.

He can only give.

He never receives. I think you allow me to help you sometimes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It might be harder for you to- It's becoming clear it's just my issue.

It might be more of a male thing, though. You might not be able to receive help from a male more than... You probably can receive a little more from women.

Yeah, that's definitely true.

I've never liked it in the past, but I definitely- It now. I've seen it get out of control where I'm like, Oh, you're not feeling good either? And I was like, I'm not here to do the taking care of. Yes.

Now we're really getting somewhere, too, because I do think a good chunk of mine is like, No, we're all in an agreement. We're in a social contract. Handle your business. I don't want to I give it because I suck at giving it. I'm like, Don't give it to me because when it comes time to give it to you, I'm going to suck at it and I don't want it.

Even though you're not going to suck at it because there's no way of sucking at it other than just saying, Are you okay? Do you need anything? That's all you have to do.

That's what's crazy to me. Yes. So women are great at that. My thing is, I can't fix it. I don't know that you're going to be. Everything I need to say, I don't know if it's true. I don't know if you're going to be okay. I don't know if you're going to feel better tomorrow.

You don't have to say you're going to be okay or you're going to feel better tomorrow. You just say, How are you?

And then I'll go like, Can I do anything to help?

And they'll say no.

But I know there's nothing to do to help. It just feels like shit. You're going to feel like shit for five days.

I know, but it just means something that somebody is thinking of you and somebody's like, wants to... Whether they can do anything they want to.

That's exactly right. Yeah. And that's the hurdle I have to get over. Yeah. This I had to get over 18 years ago with Kristen. She was like, We should go to Africa this spring. And I would go, Well, we can't go in spring because you're doing that movie there and I'm doing blank.

Oh, that sounds reasonable.

That's the reality of it. And I don't want to be promising you we're going to Africa in spring when I know that's not possible. So I'm so literal, and I have such a fear that I'm going to disappoint something. I've promised you something. So I'm not going to do that.

Because of your mom.

And then after a year or two, that I realized she just wants to know I'd like to go to Africa in the spring with her. That's what she really wants to know. We should go to Africa in the spring. Yeah, we should.

Okay.

And that's fine. And when I had to learn and trust her, she's never going to mad at me come spring and say, Why aren't we in Africa? You said we were going to go to... That's never happened. But I had to learn that that part is never going to happen. So now I can be like, Yeah, she'll go like, Let's go to such and such tonight. And I'll go, Yeah, that sounds great. And in my head, I'm like, We're never going there Oh, wow. I know this thing's happening at four. We'll never make it. The other day, she's like, Oh, they did a pop-up of the Home Alone Pizza Shop on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City. It was a pizza place, Princess Pizza. Okay. They made it look like the Home Alone Pizza Place. Oh, cute. Which, again, I don't even know what the Home Alone Pizza is. I guess they're just ordering pizza.

They don't have a pizza place.

They order at the beginning. So they make it that place.

Okay.

And Erica took the boys and everyone had a great time. Oh, fun. So this is Friday night in LA, and Kristin says, And we're going to go to a party at seven or eight. We're going to drop the kids at the Hansons. She goes, Let's go to this pop-up at 6: 00 before we drop the kids at the Hansons at 6: 40.

Sure.

And I'm like, Not a fucking chance. We'll drive there in Rush hour.

But you say yes?

I said yes. I go, Great. That is growth. We drove there in Rush hour. We got there, and lo and behold, there was the line two blocks long.

Oh, no, you did drive there?

Which I knew would be the case. It's Friday night in LA, a week before Christmas. But you went?

You was right by the Hansons anyway.

That's true.

It wasn't completely. I knew. I'm like, Okay, I'm going to say yes. Let's do it. I Well, great. Let's do it. I'm like, It's not going to happen. But I go, But we'll be in the valley. There'll be other places to eat. We'll get drive-through. We'll make this work. But I was smart enough just to go like, Yeah, let's go. And we went there. It was everything I thought. There was a two-block line. Kristin goes, Oh, fuck this. I'm like, Yeah. And I already know. That is actually real growth there.

I am impressed.

It's hard.

I haven't done that yet.

That is hard. Then what's suspicious is I go, Oh, Well, let's hit Sharky's. Clearly, I decided two hours ago, We'll be able to hit Sharky's. No one will be there on Friday night, and it's right by the end. As she was saying that lines long, I'm like, Let's just go to Sharky's, because I already knew we were going to end up at Sharky's.

But that's because you know her. That's very individual. You've adjusted.

And what did she wanted to know is that her partner was excited to try this fun thing she heard about that could be really fun. And she's with someone who wants to go do that. That's nice. And I got to give her that.

Right.

And the outcome was all the same. We didn't go there. We didn't wait in line for two hours like I thought. But you drove there. But we drove there. Yeah.

That is impressive. That would be hard for me. I don't think I could do that. It's hard. I would have to say the reality, which is like, okay, but there will be a line, so we either have to go really early or we probably won't be able to go. Yeah. I'm impressed that you can do that. Thank you.

That's very impressive. Color me impressed.

Well, this brings us all down perfectly to New Year's resolutions, which do you have any? I have two, and then this is one of them.

No, let me hear it.

One is just continuing. I'm not going to crack it this year, but I know, and I've already vocalized it. We got to not be affected by the emotions of other people. We got to fucking get on this like it's a job this year. Yeah, I like that. So this is front of the mind. You're just going to let everyone have all their emotions.

Yeah. But do you get to... So in that case, are you able to have any? When- Don't need them. No. Spoken like a true dad. Well, it's the expectations. It's just having the right expectations, I guess. Yeah.

Yes, true. Had I thought we were going to go there and walk right in and get a slice of pizza, then we got there, and then it was 2 hours, and then she did want to... I mean, luckily, she didn't want to wait that long. We couldn't because we had to be at this party.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, then sprints. Oh. Yeah, I wanted to do sprints once a week this year. They're the worst. When's the last time you did a sprint?

A long time.

I just decided if there was- They're hard on the knees. They're hard on everything.

I'd be terrified.

Yeah, they just tear everything. But don't you know intuitively like, Oh, if I can run full speed need, I'm in good shape. Yeah. If ever there were one signal of your fitness, it's like, Can you run as fast as humanly possible away from an animal? That's pretty important.

Do you got to work up to sprint? I'm thinking I'm thinking of, and this is even a long time ago, but I- Baseball fantasy camp? Yeah, it was before that, but it was just the softball league, like a bar league. I was so excited to play some ball. I'm drinking and I'm everything else, and I'm not stretching and not doing anything. I fucking crank the ball my first at bat, and I take off like a son of a bitch and just tore my hamster.

Oh, yeah.

On the way to first base. I had to be the catcher the rest of the year.

Oh, no.

And have a pinch runner. Like, today is going to be day one. I'm going to do 6 30-second sprints. Wow.

Thirty seconds? That's long. I know.

That's what I keep reading this the magic number.

But can you maybe work your way up?

Thirty seconds is probably like a 200 meter run for me. I don't know. When we were kids, remember, Brook?

What did the phone?

He did the one lap, like a quarter mile in like 59 seconds, I remember. Oh my God.

Bill Booker?

Bill Booker. Junior high.

That was his last name?

Yeah. And Brandy Tucker.

Yeah. Too fast.

Those two are the fastest motherfuckers.

And Brandy Tucker is built like, sliced along in eighth grade. So muscular. Anywho, so I'll probably run at like 70% today, so I don't tear anything.

Yeah, don't on your They get hurt.

But within four sessions, I intend on running as fast as I can for those 30 seconds. Wow. I hope I won't rip anything given that. Just stretch.

Make sure you're stretching. Really stretch. I hate stretching. I also tore my ham string in high school.

I don't stretch. I don't stretch.

I don't stretch ever.

No. The older you get, you have to start stretching.

I believe in a warmup, but I don't believe in a stretch.

I think stretching does negative things for me. I know, pick a ball and everyone laughs at it, but I walk into where we play pick a ball, and every fucking asshole is doing the most stretches. You have to, Aaron. I'm like, give me a break. You guys. I mean, come on, right?

Let's get real.

I play every day, and I don't stretch.

I shouldn't said that up. You're going to You're going to rip something.

You're going to rip something. This is your last injury.

Exactly. Okay, my New Year's resolution is stretching.

It was?

It was, but it might be now because I do want to stretch again.

No, you need weight training.

Yeah, I do. I have to get back into to that, but- Your farmer carries. I did do some accidental farmer's carries over the break because of shopping. Oh, sure. That was- Tough. I was carrying a lot of cruce and all this other trip.

Did you do any jogging this trip? Because you generally jog on your trips to Georgia.

I normally am very good at exercise when I'm home, and I was not.

Yeah, it's okay.

I need to do my exercises, but I will. Yes, that is a resolution to get back in a routine, a workout routine. And I had another one, but I forgot it. I feel like it wasn't obviously that good.

More mercurial?

No, I guess less mercurial. I don't know. Oh, well, one that we talked about on the Christmas special is I want to have a looser grip on change. Right. I want to accept change more and not not be so scared of it. So, yeah.

All these things are the exact same thing, by the way. Control. Funny enough. Yeah. And also just this, if you could start by telling yourself, I'm not going to die. Okay, she wants to go to this pizza place. There's no way it's going to work. But at the end of that, no one's going to shoot me in the head. I'm not going to be in pain. Things don't go my way, but I'll be just fine. That's hard for me to believe. Right. That if I don't get my way, I will be upset.

But it's not even Okay, I'm going to give you a little something here, though. That's not not get your way. That's do something you know is not going to work out.

Yes. That's different. That's true.

It's like you're entering a situation that you know is doing. Yeah. And that, I think, is hard.

But also it won't kill me.

It won't kill you.

No, it's fine. If I could just get to the part where it's like your control. So it's like, they're doing this and they're doing whatever the thing is that's stressing you out.

Yeah.

And you're like, Yeah, and then I'll also be fine.

I know. It is all also cousins to getting taken advantage of and things like that.

Yeah.

Like, they don't respect my time.

But again, we know it's like none of it's that deep.

No one's even thinking about us. I know, but then I don't like that. But that's the thing. Yeah. I don't like that there's zero thought about the other people. Who did Phil Specter murder? He murdered actress Lana Clarkson, finding her dead from a gunshot wound in his California mansion in 2003. He was later convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to 19 years to life in prison, dying in custody in 2021. Oh, he's dead.

Yeah. Can you visually picture what he looks like, Monica? He's insane-looking. I'm going to look at him. Google a picture of him. Can you picture Phil Specter?

I sure can.

The same hair, dude.

He looked the same.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scary.

He looks scary.

Why is his hair like that? He looks like a murderer.

I can't believe how many women he worked with. Wasn't he?

Yeah.

Ike and Tina.

Yeah, I think he did all that. He was doing something Honey and Cher. Yeah, all the Motown stuff.

Yeah, Ike and Tina. Yeah, you're right. John Lennon.

The Wall of Sound.

That was his- Yeah, Wall of Sound. Good job. Okay, you said you were giving her credit for all the stuff she did. And you said 100 million albums, which what's the... I'm confused. So she sold over 100 million records. But I think albums means how many you're putting out, right?

No, albums, records, same.

Same thing? Yeah.

Okay. Was that number right?

Over 100 million records.

That's fucking crazy. I saw this over the break. I saw a list of the top 50 rap albums of all time. Okay. What would you do off the top of your head? What do you guys think? Who's leading that?

A single record or artist?

Yeah, it was per album. Number one rap album of all time sold. I'll give you a hint. I think it was 51 million copies.

M&m.

Boom. M&m was five of the top 10.

Oh, wow.

Jay-z, he didn't show up on the list until 40. I think his biggest album had seven million. Million. I was saying to Chris, and after I read that list, I was like, The industry is weird. Jay-z is a billionaire, and he's in 38th with only one album on the list. I was thinking, what you're really talking about is the monetization of cool.

Yeah.

And caché.

Caché.

It's so weird. Jay-z doesn't have these 50 million, but we all know he's the coolest motherfucker to ever do it. And so if he has clothes, I want those. And if he has this, it's just interesting how you can skin a cat.

The respect that comes with some people. It's worth a lot.

Yeah. Like, MCAP Hammer's above him. Right. In like, number eight or some shit.

No one's wearing those pants.

No one's wearing those pants, and he's not a billionaire.

I don't know what you're saying. I still say proper, though.

You do. Yeah.

But I mean, it is, to me, the reason I picked it is because white people listened to M&M.

So White people, isn't it?

They listen to all rap. But not all white people. In certain areas, they don't, and they would listen to M&M. I feel like he was really universal.

I remember thinking I remember when his album came out, the first one, which was '99, maybe, or close to that, 2000.

Mom's Spaghetti?

My name is- Slim Shady. Yeah, and the real Slim Shady, whatever the album was. I remember being at the Detroit Fireworks, in a sea of craziness, if you remember. I think that was one of the last years I went because I was like, Why do we do this? People get shot. It's dangerous. It's like, and you can't escape. Anyway, so I remember that song or that album was playing everywhere, and there's barely white people, at least where I was. I was like, wow.

Yeah, he broke through. The weirdest thing about M&M is, A, I think he probably is the most skilled out of all them, white or not. His poetry is off the chart. His rimes are so- I think more than Jay-Z and Kanye.

Yeah.

They're so abstract yet work. They're so complicated. The things he's rhyming don't make sense. I think he's next I think he might be skills-wise, but he was never for me. I can totally appreciate the mad talent, but I never owned an M&M album. I'm not sure why. Because in fact, in this case, he was why. He was like, I don't want my rappers.

You were like, That's not cool.

I'm getting it to get a glimpse into your world, and I love being able to get this authentic glimpse into your world. It's like, Wait, this dude grew up in Clarkston by me. Yeah. Don't he grew up?

No, he grew up in Detroit.

Okay, yeah. 8 while, the movie, I guess. All right, we really did it here. Okay.

I think that's it.

Happy birthday.

Happy New Year and Happy Monday. J2c.

All right. Love you.

Love you. Love you.

Follow Armchair Expert on the WNDRI app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wundri. Com/survey.