Transcript of The SEC-Big Ten Castle now has a moat + Ashton Jeanty's HOF potential with Ralph Russo and Dane Brugler

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I'm David Uben, and we have a very special guest today, our newest colleague, the newest senior national reporter at The Athletic for College Football, Ralph Ruso. Welcome, Ralph. It's great to have you. You come to us from the Associated Press, where you work since before the invention of Twitter. I think close to the invention of Facebook. Before that, right? I think that's right.

It was definitely before the invention of Twitter, without question. Here's the best way to describe it. I've been in the business for 31 years. 29 of them have been with the Associated Press.

That sounds good. Well, right now, we're not going to ask you for your Uber Eats order. We're not going to get your Uber Eats order, but we are going to ask you about the story you wrote involving the SEC and the Big Ten's reported scheduling partnership, what that means in the grand scheme of college football. And you and I, we've each got three takes on the of the season. We're going to trade takes, and I'm going to tell you why yours are wrong and mine are better. And then later in the show, the athletics NFL draft guru, Dane Brogler. Always excellent. He joins me to talk about his evaluations of Jalen Milrow, Asha Genti, a favorite here on Until Saturday, Travis Hunter, and more of the top prospects in the sport. Ralph, before we get to the SEC in the Big Ten, though, we had some more realignment news. Tuesday morning, Gonzaga's in the Pac-12. They're going to join in all sports, but not football since they don't have a football football program. Some would argue that Rutgers joined the Big Ten without a football program, but they have since fixed that issue. The Pac-12, not quite at eight full-time members yet, though.

Ralph, who could be next in this league?

I do think they're trying to still get into Texas. I also think that the reason why the Pac-12 has maybe, I don't know, slowed down, I think, is the perception. Frankly, I think that they would bristle at that perception that they have slowed down since the UNLV thing didn't work out, since the AAC poaching did not work out. I think that what they're shifting to now is the idea that, listen, we've been projecting some figures to try to lure people into our conference as far as TV money. Now we've got seven, now we've got Gonzaga. Maybe we can go to the networks and get a little bit firmer numbers to do one of two things. Either Texas State or someone like that look towards the state of Texas, grab a school that's more readily available. I also think that there's a possibility that the Pac-12 could circle back around on some of those AAC schools. Now, that's not to mean that they'll be successful a second time, but I do wonder if a UTSA, which is not making as much because they're a relatively new member in the AAC, could be receptive to a second pass.

So I think those are their options. I think they're very much looking at, Hey, how can we get into Texas in some central time zone? And maybe going from, We're just projecting what our value is to, Hey, we've talked to some potential TV partners, and now we have a firmer of what we could be getting. And they sell that to the potential new members as, And here's what we would be valued if you came along.

Yeah. It looks like UTEP is going to be joining the Mountain West, which in this day and age, I will take a move that does not make me bristle geographically. I did win the geography bee in sixth grade, so anytime that I can look at that and say, Oh, that makes sense, it makes my heart a little full. What do people need to know about that move, So I think the interesting part of that is the Conference USA, which Ujup is moving out of, has a grant of rights.

I know that term gets thrown around a lot in college sports. We literally it's at the center of everything that's going on with the ACC right now in those lawsuits. It's working a little differently in Conference USA, where they don't have massive media rights deals. So buying their way out of a grant of rights, whereas it would cost Florida State, $500 million to do it early with a television contract that runs through 2036. In Conference USA, it's a little unclear exactly. I think our colleagues have reported about $8 million might need to be exchanged for them to break some of this deal. But again, it's a little more manageable. The idea of a grant of rights being just practically signing over your life is different in with Conference USA. You're right, it gets them. Frankly, UTEP is the outlier in Conference USA now geographically. This gets them more aligned with geographic partners. Maybe the next step is New Mexico's State, if you want to add one more, because that again creates another rivalry with New Mexico and Utah.

At least we're still living in sanity land geographically. It looks like the SEC and the Big Ten are going to meet next week in Nashville to talk about a number of things, the scheduling partnership and the ideal auto bid model when the next cultural playoff rolls around in 2026. We still don't know what that's going to look like. 14, 16, we'll see. In February, Ralph, they made a joint advisory committee and people's red flags, their tinfoil hats went up, that there's a lot of ideas about what the SEC and Big Ten want to do to make things a sport that already is tilted in their favor, more tilted in their favor. You wrote a little bit about this, Ralph. What did you write? If you're a fan of a team that is not in the Big Ten and not in the SEC, how concerned should you be about these closed-door meetings in Nashville?

I think there should be a fair amount of concern just on the idea that the SEC and the Big Ten are building a castle around them, maybe even with a moat with crocodiles in it.

I've heard these moats can go poorly for people. So yeah. Yeah.

I think the more they wall themselves off and partner, the more you end up perpetuating this a self-fulfilling prophecy of we're the best conferences, and if we lock everybody else out, then you don't have a chance to grow into being at our level, because we're keeping all of our value under one roof. The reason why the playoff thing and the scheduling thing mesh, I think they're looking for opportunity. I'll give you an example, David. Usa, Texas. Excuse me, USA, LSU, Texas, Michigan. Before this weekend, and I'm not sure if we have numbers out yet on Georgia, Alabama, that may blow them both away. But those were the two largest audiences to watch games in the first four weeks of the season. So when you're the Big Ten and SEC, you go, Well, maybe we should play more non-conference games. Maybe we can create a Big Ten SEC challenge like we see in basketball. Two reasons. A, maybe we can create a package that we can bring to market of new games. Harder to do that because there are existing contracts right now. Plus, there's I think there's about 30 SEC Big Ten games scheduled over the next couple of years already.

So I don't know if ESPN is going to want to pay more for something that they already own or Fox for that matter, Fox, MBC, and those. The other way you create some revenue out of that and Big Ten SEC challenge is, Hey, maybe the athletic wants to sponsor it, right? Or maybe Good Year or just whatever, right? You get a sponsor and it's not as big. You don't get as much revenue as maybe creating another television package, but you, in some way, create a new revenue stream out of this SEC Big Ten challenge, right? That maybe you can go through every year.

Do you think we get to a place where they get those four automatic bids? You expand to maybe, we'll say 14 for the sake of just doomsday. You have four SEC, four Big Ten, and the rest of college football gets to fight over six. Do you think that we get to that finish line and they can get the other conferences to... I say agree. I'll say the more accurate term would probably be acquiesce.

Yeah, it is more acquiesce because that's the way the system is set up now. They don't need a situation where you have unanimous support for a change of the CFP once the 2026 contract goes into place. So a couple of different things there. First of all, I don't think they're signing up for an SEC Big Ten challenge either conference and making those schedules even more tough unless they know, Hey, we have a certain amount of access to the CFP that we can guarantee. So making our schedules tougher isn't going to be working against us. There's also an element of the Big Ten waiting for the SEC to go to nine conference games.

Which they should and have been dragging their feet on for several years.

And that, again, could be a money thing. It's always a money a money thing, right? It's always a money thing. So I think where the two things are related, the scheduling and the auto bids, is we would be more likely to do the scheduling thing if we can get the auto bids in place. Then I think what happens is, again, they can't do this completely on their own, but they can. They can force it through. I also wonder how much you're looking for 2024 and 2025 results to say to the Big 12 and the ACC, Hey, guys, you might get one. So maybe let's talk about you getting two. Maybe, or some situation where we put in some measures where, Hey, if you hit these targets in your ranking, you get two. So I think we are heading there. At what point have you marginalized fan bases at the broader scope of college football that you don't want to do that, too. What happens when the folks in Stillwater go, Do we have a shot at any of this stuff? Where are we in the... I think a bigger tent of college football is probably better than a smaller one.

And this is no offense. It's one thing to squeeze out Boise, and it's one thing to squeeze out Fresno State or the Mac. You can make some arguments that they are not the same as these power conferences. When you start looking to squeeze out, like Pit, and Georgia Tech and Kansas State, what are we doing here? How small does the tent need to be and how much is so much that you guys have to capture it all to hold on to. And it goes back to what you said, well, right now, yes, we need every penny. And if it means trampling the ACC and the Big 12 to get it, I guess that's what we're going to do. I think the people who are stepping away for those things are minuscule and are easily replaced by the next wave of college football fans who don't know anything but that world. I think this is the more pressing issue in terms of squeezing your audience, because the folks who root for Oklahoma State will also show up and watch Georgia, Alabama. But how much will they show up and watch Georgia, Alabama if they are no longer tethered in any way to that game?

If they have no real If they've been squeezed out. So I think, hopefully, the Big Ten and the SEC understand we don't want to squeeze too hard on those conferences.

We'll see. Maybe it's like CFL fans watching the NFL. It's nice, but it's not mine. Ralph, 2026 is close, so we think, but it's still technically two years away from these things becoming reality. So let's turn our attention to the here now. We've had a month of games in the 2024 season. And to welcome you to the Athletic, Ralph, we've each got three takes we want to get off our chest. I'll kick us off. There's this idea going around, Ralph, as we see Alabama crush Georgia, and they seem to have success, and Jalen Miller looks better. They're like, Well, maybe they won't miss nick Saban as much as people thought. Maybe that's true. But I'm looking everywhere else in college football, Ralph, and I'm seeing some evidence that nick Saban is somehow still Still underrated. That is because it's really hard to sustain success in this sport for a million different reasons. It's getting harder as it's harder to manage your roster. Michigan wins the national championship. Well, they're not Michigan anymore. They're falling off. Washington, total non-factor without Calin De Boer, without Michael Penix. They're not going to be a factor in hardly anything this year.

You look at Florida State, they go undefeated last year. They finish sixth after the bowl loss, but they're right there. I don't even think we need to mention what's happening to Florida State. It's unmentionable. It's hard to mention without getting into obsenity at this point. You look around. Arizona finished last season in the top 15. They bring back Noah Fafita. They bring back Tether Roy McMillan. They lose Jed Fish, of course, bringing Brett Brennan. Arizona, they're still struggling a little bit, although they had a nice spin last week against Utah. You look around the sport. Nc State finished last season in the top 25. They look terrible. Whatever success looks like for your program, whether that's eight wins, 10 wins, 12 wins, it is really, really hard to continue that after great years. Nick Saban seemed to do that all the time. So as much as Alabama and their success might seem to make the case that, Hey, they're going to be okay without him, you look around the rest of the sport, and I say that what he did over the last 15 years, we still may not have enough respect for.

Yeah, I know I'm supposed to disagree with you. That's the way that works, but it's hard to because I think after what happened this weekend, you're right. There's this tendency to celebrate Calin DeBore in this seamless transition. But I would say, Let's give it a couple of years. They're kicking butt on the recruiting trail, too. There's good signs there.

He's a nice shot of answering that question, which is my main question with him. They're killing it on the recruiting trail.

But that still has to play out. I do agree with you. I think old guys like me remember this sport being a little more cyclical, even to a certain degree. Nebraska was always at the top, but wasn't knocking out national championships every year. And Florida State did something that was unique with that really long run. But generally speaking, there's been a lot more undulating, right? Yes. College football.

Usa, the U, Florida.

And Alabama totally removed that. Saban just removed that from the equation. There is no more cycling up and cycling down. We are just up.

We are up all the time.

I think Kirby's program looks like it's close to being able to do it, but they didn't win a national championship last year. They are now one in six.

They didn't make the play off last year. They didn't win the SEC last year.

Right. They're now one in six against Alabama. I mean, if you want to do the what-if game, what if the kid makes the field goal on New Year's Eve night against for Ohio State, and now they have one national championship? I don't like doing that because you can play that what-if game with Alabama, too, on all of their national championships to a certain degree. But yeah, again, as much as I'm supposed to I'm supposed to push back and come up with why you're wrong here. I don't know if I see it, man.

Basically, I'm always right, and everything I say is gospel truth. That's correct? That's where we're at? Listen, I know I'm new here, but I'm not quite ready to...

I think it's up to you like that.

I think that's one of the rules of the athletic, I think. All right, so now that we've established that I am correct, Ralph, what is your first take for us?

Well, I think it's something online here because you talk about programs that we see taking a new identity or maybe not being what they used to be. But I do wonder, I know Clemson maybe is not what it used to be. I understand it might not be a national championship, but I feel like we all wrote an obit on Dabo's program and took him to task for not doing the transfer portal thing. He probably does need to start doing that. But since the beating to Georgia, I find myself thinking like, Oh, man, they're going to make the playoff, aren't they? They might be the best team in the ACC. I understand at the end here, we still might have a situation where Dabo can raise his flag and say, I went 11 and 2 or 12 and 2. I was right, get off my back. I really do see a world where it's not what it used to be, but it's still real good. If you look at the rest of the ACC, other than Miami, I don't know who's beating Clemson. Maybe at the end of the year, Dabo is going to be able to tell us all I told you so.

No, this is not the case, Ralph. Here's the issue with this. Here's the issue. Just the way this is supposed to work. Yeah. Here's the issue with this, is that the question was never, is Alex Clemson just going to fall off. I think the bigger question is, can they still compete at the national level? There's one team in the whole ACC that you mentioned right now that looks even close to that level. I'm not even sure I'd put Miami up there with the Alabama's, the Georgia's, the Ohio State. I'm not even sure I'd put them on that level. We saw what happened when they went up against George, who obviously is on that level? It was ugly. I think that is even still the O-bit for Clemson's program. It was an O-bit for Clemson as a national title contender. Even though they have looked really good, and maybe they serve up some this season, but they're not going to be able to do that until the latter portions of the playoff. If they go and beat one of those teams, then I think they can say that. But if they win the ACC, get into the quarterfinals of the playoff and get smacked by Oregon by 30 or something like that, or even 17, 20, I still think some of those takes would still have been correct because Clemson, by Dabo's own doing, has fallen off of that, We are the elite pedestal where they were for so long.

It seems hard unless he embraces some of those things that have changed the sport that they're ever going to get to that level. That's my counter.

Maybe they're not as far away as we thought. I think that's the other thing, too. I think there's a world here where we figure out that, oh, they want a playoff game, and maybe they're not as far away from being at that level as we thought.

Perhaps. We'll learn in December. We've still got four more takes to dish out, Ralph. Before we do that, we got to pay some bills. When we return, we're going to get to those four takes. We've been stewing on them for a while. We got to get them off our chest. Plus, later the show, The Athletic's Dane Broogler is going to join to share his opinions on Jalen Millrow, Travis Hunter, Ashton Genti, plenty of others. If you aren't already subscribed to the podcast, you need to do that. Whatever podcast app you're using, hit that subscribe button and our shows will be delivered directly to your device. Whenever they are fresh, it helps us immensely, and it helps you because it delivers our show right to your device every time we post a new show. We'll be right back after these messages. Hockey is back on ice, and The Athletic Hockey Show has the game covered four days a week, all season long.

Hear from The Athletic's NHL Writers and Insiders Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Plus, keep up with the game's future stars on the Friday Prospect series. Whether we're diving deep on one topic, discussing the latest news, or breaking down last night's OT winner, you can't miss a single episode. Listen to The Athletic Hockey Show wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back. Ralph, my next take. I've noticed this already from the first month of the season. I don't like that the sport has become so centered around playoff chatter, but as that playoff chatter has been centered and that chatter grows with the 12-team playoff, the first month of the season, almost every game is relevant to the playoff, and it's already helped to the regular season. I think especially, I wrote about this a little bit in one of my bubble watches the first month of the season, that Northern Illinois beating Notre Dame and Boise, Oregon, and some of these G5, P5 matchups were nice stories before, but they didn't have a lot of relevance. Now, they have a lot of playoff relevance because they're shaping that G5 bid. Then you're looking at the Big 12 race. That Big 12 race is very relevant because if you win the Big 12, you're going to the playoff, you're going to get a buy. It adds a lot of relevance to a lot. The G5 title races are very interesting to me. Everything. The playoff has become everything, but we changed the playoff to encompass a lot more of college football.

It has already enhanced the regular season for me just as a college football fan quite a bit, to say nothing of the conversation around the sport. I'm loving it personally. I think it adds a ton, and I just invested in these games, feel like they have higher... More games have higher stakes, even if, as I argued on the show Sunday, and I still think it's true, the consequences of a Georgia loss to Bama are slightly lessened. Are you with me? Are you with me? Well, I am with you and I have my own take that's similar.

I'm somewhat with you and I have my own take.

Is this your take number two? This is your take number two?

I'm going to go right into take number two because I think it piggybacks right along it, and you can tell me if I'm agreeing with you or not. I will say this. I actually don't think... The place where I don't agree with you is the idea that the playoff has taken over everything. I actually think the expansion of the playoff, while it's a nice story, like below the surface storyline, it's a secondary storyline to all this, in some ways, puts more emphasis on just the game being the game. We knew Alabama, Georgia, nobody's getting eliminated, but we all had a rollicking good time watching Alabama, Georgia, in a sense, because It was just a great game. So maybe it allows us, some of these earlier games, to just appreciate the moment a little more. Live in the moment, Dave. We all got to live in the moment. I think too often we go from what we just watched to the very next thing. I would just say that's the part of it where maybe I disagree with you a little bit that the playoff is in everything. My take is the reason why the playoff is improving the regular season is I already know who's going to win the national championship.

It's going to be Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Ohio State. One of those four teams is win that. And that's been the case for years in this sport, that we get to October and we are just lying to ourselves. Last year was an anomaly where we had a few different teams. Maybe you can go out to about five or six that you thought could win it. More often than not, it's two or three, maybe four. I think that was the reason why the old playoff dragged the sport down.

Maybe. I still think that it... I think what it comes down to is I'm willing to make this trade of having more games be more relevant, even if it does hurt the stakes of Georgia, Alabama. This is why I would still like it if it was up to me, if they just let me draw it up, I'd be an 18 playoff guy, four conference champions. I like the G5, I like the fifth, I like the way that they're doing that, where the G5 champion, especially in the new G5, where there's not that many teams that can really compete, and then three at largest. That's what I would do, personally. But I'm willing to make that trade. I think the stakes of Georgia, Alabama are definitely lessened, and I think that's just the reality of what this is, that Georgia's season is still fine, even if that loss is painful. But what we're losing there, we are gaining in, Hey, Boise UNLV is happening in a few weeks, and that game has massive stakes where it probably didn't previously. Or, Hey, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, now that game is like a playoff game to get in the playoff in September.

I'm into that. I think the sport is changing. The sport is very different, but I'm okay with the trade that they have made with expanding the playoff, even if we're having to get to know a new sport. That's where I'm at on this. My next take, Ralph. I don't like the transient rosters, the the perpetual free agency. It annoys me. It makes our jobs incredibly difficult. There's already 134 teams to keep track of. I don't know if you're a math major listening to this, but that's a lot of teams. There's 85 scholarships on that. There's It got to be 105 scholarships. My rough math, is that 10,000 players? A hundred and five scholarships on 134 teams? I was told there would be no math. Okay, well, I lied. This is when we sucker you in, we get you in. That's a lot of players to know. Our jobs are very difficult. A lot of guys are moving. They've always been hard. They're only getting harder. But here's what it's done, and I think it will change as we get something close to revenue sharing, something close to employment, something close to contracts in the sport.

But for now, we get that salacious soap opera that the NBA has where it's like fantasy basketball of like, what if we put DJ U on Florida State instead of Clemson? What I know Bo Nicks is not good here, but what if we took Bo Nicks and we put him on Oregon? I bet they'd be awesome. What if we put Michael Penix on Washington? All these things, all of this fantasy football that's happening, and the drama, the Matthew Sluka drama, these are college football topics that are penetrating the college football ecosystem and are being talked about on part of the interruption, leading SportsCenter. If you watch SportsCenter, and ESPN is in particular. There's a lack of college football-centric content during the week. It is a lot of NFC East check-ins and Yankees check-ins and all that stuff. I get it, they're running a business that is what it is. But all these things, as much as a college football person like myself hates it, it's good for the sport, even if it annoys the diehards because it invests people. There's people talking about engaging in watching UNLV football because of the new rules, because of all this stuff that had never cared about a UNLV football game before.

Are you with me on this, Ralph?

Here's what I'll disagree with you. I do believe the transaction is good for the sport. I believe the transaction is good for the sport in the offseason because it gives you a bridge to the next season. If we're talking about these things outside the realm of... I mean, it's like talking... Well, the NBA gets a little of this, and frankly, it's a problem for the NBA when they're in the playoffs and they're talking about where so-and-so is headed next. I think that's actually an issue for the NBA. So I think the transactional nature is great for the offseason. The problem is, Dave, it's running concurrent to the regular season. And then it's going to be a transfer portal window opening up right when the payoff games are starting. That's bad. If they can peel these two things away from each other and create a transactional period during the offseason, that would be awesome. Having these things overlap each other, I think, is a problem that the sport still needs to solve, and I'm not really sure. Generally speaking, you're right, though. Having that, Hey, who's my team going to get? Dynamic absolutely raises interest.

I think it's interesting. The problem the NBA has is that they have this weird breed of fan that doesn't watch the games, but watch the Gen Z crowd that watches the Instagram highlights and then theorizes on where LeBron is going next. It's like, to my knowledge, those people don't exist. The college football fan that cares about college football and doesn't watch the games or their team's game, I don't think that person exists. I think there's people who only watch their team and then pontificate on things they have no idea about because they don't watch any other games. Well, I just watched my team play Boise State. National Gentilan at 78 yards. Why does everybody care about this? It's like, okay, I need you to shut up. Those people don't exist. The people that engage and don't watch the games don't exist. If that breed of fan ever bubbles up in college football, especially because of how important TV ratings have become. That could be a problem. But to this point, I don't think those people exist. I think the people that are engaged in, Oh, I hate Max Luka, or, Oh, Max Luka is getting screwed, or, I can't this quarterback that left my school, or, This quarterback that's coming to my school as our new savior, they're watching the games, and that's probably good for the sport.

So I'm in on this. Ralph, what is your final take? Bring us home.

My take is, again, there's a little bit of a tether to what you just said because it does have to do with the transfer portal to a certain degree. I wonder if what we're seeing, every situation, every coaching search, it's a snowflake. They're all different, they're all unique. It's hard to necessarily take the Billy Napier Florida situation and say, This is a model going forward. But I do believe that we are in a world where we might see fewer of these September firings. We had a bunch of them in 2022, I think it was, with Frost and Jeff Collins. And that was a little high, frankly. That was a bit of anomaly, too, when you had, I think, six coaches get fired before October eighth. So I'm not saying that we're completely... That's not the standard, but I see what's going on with Napier, and Florida is going like, What are we gaining here by firing him in three games into the season? When it's just going to create more instability, it's going to open up a portal window. Players might still stay behind. They can't change teams in the middle of the season, but how much is it going to just scatter our roster?

We're really not getting a head start on replacing him because it's September. We can't We can't hire anyone until the end of November, early December anyway. So I do wonder if the portal dynamic is creating a little bit of a sense of like, Hey, maybe we shouldn't be firing our coach in September. Let's at least ride this out for half the season. And the September firing was becoming a lot more common. Again, I don't think 2022 was a bit of an anomaly, but it was becoming something where every year we would see one or two of these, late September, early October. I do wonder if what Florida is seeing right now, other schools are going to see, Hey, we're not really getting a lot of bang for our buck for pulling the plug this early. Let's let this roll out a few more weeks.

I disagree with you for this reason. You look at the three schools who came in with coaches with blazing seats. You have Sam Pitman, you have David Randa, and you have Billy Napier. Aranda, he's been up and down. The Hillmary was not a good look. They rallied. If they get fully punked by Bbyu last week, they rallied in that game. They made it competitive late. It was looking ugly. Early. They've done enough to stick around. Sam Pitman- They've done enough to not- Yes. The problem with Florida is, like you said, this particular Snowflake does not have a president in charge of ice crystallization, and the Shapeliness of the AD, Scott Strickland underneath him and his hiring power post-firing is a little sticky. I disagree with you because I think if Billy Napier is coaching at a place, let's say Oklahoma, that has had a very solid structure for a long time and you have an established AD that has all the donors behind him like, Hey, do what you got to do, Josie, all this stuff. I think they do pull the plug, and I think you can get ahead of the game on vetting and maybe thinking about who fits us better?

What do we need, what are the traits that fit this program? Because I think every school- You don't think that's going on in Gainesville right now, dude? Well, okay, that's fair. But maybe you can have some conversations with agents of like, Hey, what are the things that are You're going to need, as part of your contract, as part of your negotiations, the back channeling with agents. I do think you can push things a little further. If you start having those conversations then, then it gets a little bit awkward. I don't think at this point, Billy Napier can do anything to coach himself off the hot seat. It's done at this point. I think Tennessee might finish the job here in a couple of weeks. We'll see. Going to Knoxville and playing that game could be something that doesn't end well for them. We'll see. But I think it's just a coincidence. I think you had two guys that were on the verge getting fired, do enough to stick around, and then the one who didn't, the bosses and his boss's bosses are in such disarray. We have the President, Ben Sass, with some we'll call creative accounting Then Scott Strickland has lost the confidence of a lot of people around there.

I don't think that's true. I think we're still going to see... I don't think they're going to be more or less, maybe slightly more than in the last 20 years because of the portal window and wanting to have all your ducks in a row by that December sixth whenever the portal opens this year. I think this year is a coincidence, and Florida is an outlier because of those leadership issues.

Well, as I've learned my first couple of days on the job, you're always right. It's true.

Well.

It's literally in the handbook.

It's true. We were onboarding Ralph. I was reading up. You got a call. I don't remember which editor was in charge of making the call, but they had to call you on day one and be like, Listen, also, I've been just write about everything just so that you know it's something we've fought back on and since realized we can't fight back on. So I appreciate it. Ralph, again, welcome to The Athletic. It's the best job I've ever had. I hope it's the best job you've ever had. You can read all of Ralph's stories and musings on theathletic. Com, the link to his bio, where you can find all of his stories. You've got one right now, Ralph. I think you're going to have some more very soon. It's 24 hours, though, and that's pretty good.

But the link to that bio- We got one within the first 12 hours.

I already had one, so that's good. It's in the show's description. I am excited to call you a colleague, Ralph. I'm excited to get started here. But now, let's get to my conversation with NFL Draft Guru, Dane Broogler, the best, the best, the athletics guru here, where we discuss Jalen Millrow, Travis Hunter, Ashton Genti, his favorite under-the-radar prospects, and more. Welcome back. We are here with the NFL Draft Guru to end all gurus, the athletics Dane Broogler. Dane, love having you on. Love chatting with you. What's college football season look like for you so far?

Yeah, thanks, David, man. It's been a fun September because a lot of the players we thought were going to be in the mix at the top of the draft board, they're playing well, but we've also had some players maybe on the other side, not not play so well. We're still trying to figure out this quarterback class. There's a lot going on in college football as it pertains to the draft that we're still figuring out, but a lot of things we need to talk about as well.

When you've talked about Jay Daniels, you've talked about how a fit is so important. I think we saw that in college, moving from Arizona State to LSU, and then his comfort in that system from year one to year two. Now you're seeing that with the commanders in the NFL. Jelen Milrow, an interesting prospect. But when you look at him so far fitting into Calin De Boer's offense, what have they done to bring out the best in him and draw some buzz about him at the next level as well?

Yeah, on that field, Saturday night with some of the best athletes in the sport, Milro just looked like he was moving at a different speed. He is so dynamic because of the ways he can stress a defense. There's just so many ways he can beat you. I think in terms of comfort level, he looks like a very different player now compared to the guy we saw against Michigan in the Rose Bowl. And specifically with De Boer's offense and this new coaching staff, I think we're seeing a lot more movement, a lot of different route combinations that's designed to spread out the defense. And you watch this game against Georgia, and Milro did a great job taking what the defense was giving him. You have the post-COVID, you've got the comeback cover, or I just hit the tight end in the flat. I mean, he had a good feel for where to go based off of the way he was reading the defense. And that comes from preparation, understanding what the defense is trying to do, and understand, Okay, this is covered, this is covered. Boom, this is where I need to go, and do this all in a quick two and a half seconds.

And credit to the Alabama offensive line. I think they've played outstanding this year. If we're going to talk Joe Moraward, they're somewhere in the top three so far. And it's just a big improvement from Last year, where things were still moving a little too fast for him as a passer. It's just things are... There's not as much panic with Milro. That spectacular Ryan Williams catch. He saw the single coverage and said, My guy's better than yours. I'm going to attack it. And he's still a work in progress in some areas. Honestly, he might always be. Who knows? But it just feels like this offense has really clicked for him, which has allowed him to just be more comfortable from the pocket.

You mentioned Ryan Williams. People can't get enough of this guy right now. People can't get enough of talking about how he's 17, all of these things. He's a little bit a ways away from being on the NFL draft radar. But, Dane, your early impressions of this kid, are you as wowed as everyone else is at what he's doing at this age, at this stage in his career?

I mean, how could you not? I mean, did you know he was 17 years old? I just heard that. That's crazy. I've heard that.

I got to confirm it. I need to hear it 150 more times, but maybe.

I mean, it is astonishing that he's doing this. I mean, think about where we were at 17 years old, and it's just bizarre. But you look at Jeremiah Smith, what he's doing in Columbus for the Buckeyes. I mean, it's crazy how good some of these players are, and it makes you get you excited for, Okay, what's it going to look like a year from now, two years from now, when they continue to grow into their bodies and just become much better players? What they put on film so far is... I promise you, that play at the end of the Alabama-Georgia was probably the number of NFL GMs who texted one another about that play. I mean, that's how you want to get noticed by NFL teams, and Ryan Williams certainly has done that. So it looks like he has the total package with the speed, the body control. I mean, it's just rare receiving instincts. I make it a rule of mine not to really focus on a freshman because I only have so much room in my brain, I can't really watch the non-draft eligible guys. But how could you not with a guy like Williams and that talent?

You mentioned him processing and seeing what the defense is doing and understanding the total picture. Are there other places that you've seen him improve from what you saw from him last year and so far in the first month of this season?

I think he has been more consistent down the field. I made the comparison last week. I wrote an article about comparing him to Jalen Hertz. I think that's something you see with their games, how down the field, they can really hurt you. Something Jalen Hertz is known for. And then you watch that Wisconsin tape, and Milra was outstanding, throwing that. Both of his touch downs were perfectly placed balls with pace down the field. And I think that's... We know he has a big arm. He's always had that. But I think just it's more consistent with his downfield accuracy this year. And that's where the comparison with Hertz comes in. They both, in terms of size, 6'1, 2'25, thickly-built athletes. And again, they might not be the traditional passers, but they are dynamic in the player to their strengths. And just going back to that Georgia game, that wheel route that Milrow through was outstanding. Off the field, too. You look at Hertz, he's known as that tireless worker, mentally tough, do whatever is needed for the team. All the character feedback that I've gotten from Alabama on Milrow, it's built the same way mentally. The main difference between these two guys, Milrow is a legit 4-4 athlete, and he has a stronger arm than Hertz.

So that's where I call him the rocket-fueled version of Hertz, and that's where that comes in.

You look at this quarterback class, where does it stand right now for you? Where does Milrow rank in there? When you talk about Carson Beck, you talk about Shador, those guys, how do those shake out for you as currently stands with two-thirds of the season left to play?

Beck, one, is up for grabs. I mean, who wants it? That's basically what the next two months are going to be. With Milro, he has put together a strong audition here in the first month of the season saying, Hey, I'm your guy. On the flip side of that, if scouts only watched that game Saturday night and nothing else, a George Alabama game, they would come away saying, Okay, well, Milrow is a first rounder, and Carson Beck is a third rounder, at best. But obviously, that's not how this works. It's about body of work, how guys perform over the course of their careers. But how guys perform the biggest games, that matters. And watching Beck last year was refreshing to see a quarterback who got better with each game. He played confident, got the ball in the hands of his playmakers. But with that said, it was up and down against Alabama last year, and he said he came back to school. Part of the reason is because of how that lost to Alabama felt. So coming Coming back, that was circled on the calendar for him. He played the worst game of his career this past weekend against Alabama.

So he looked like a guy that was missing the Brock Bauer's cheat code to beat the big bad boss at the end of the level. And that's something where, okay, if you don't have a Brock Bauer to throw to, if you don't have Lad McConkey to throw to, can you make everybody else around you better? And even when Georgia was coming back in the second half of that game, a lot of his throws were just chucking 50-50 balls downfield, and they worked until they didn't, and that interception ended the game. But the comeback was good to see, but overall, it was a poor performance. And so did he look like a future NFL starter in that game? No. But they're still early in the process. Can he go out and perform at a high level the rest of the season, lead Georgia into the playoffs? And can he change the narrative? Kam Ward from Miami has made a really nice push to be up there? I mean, could he be this year's Jaden Daniels, where preseason, we're talking about him, third, fourth-round pick, but the way he plays in his final year. We have to remember, with Kam Ward, he was winged tea in high school, and then he goes to a version of the air raid Incarnate Word, and then a similar thing at Washington State.

Okay, so it's a new offense at Miami, and showing us something a little bit different. The biggest thing for Ward, because we know he's elusive in the pocket. The way he can sling the football is a lot of fun. He creates big plays, but it's the turnover-worthy plays that are the red flag. That's where he needs to fix things. That's where he needs to be better, because in the NFL, he'll continue to develop at the next level, but teams aren't going to have patience with you if you're turning the ball over. They're not going to allow you to go out there and get the reps you need to get better if you're turning the ball over 2-3 times a game.

Shifting gears, one of our favorite players on this podcast, Ashton Genti from Boise State. You had an All-22 clip of five of his best runs against Washington State. That game was unreal. It's as good as he looked against Oregon. I think he may look better against Washington State. What have been your impressions of him and what is his NFL future stock, draft, outlook look like at this point?

You know in baseball, how umpires have to check pitchers when they come off the mound for any foreign substances? I wonder if the refs need to start doing that with Boise games and check Genti's Jersey for baby oil or something that would make more sense for what he's able to do, breaking all these tackles. The game he had Saturday night against Washington State, it looked like someone took Barry Sanders highlights and put him on a blue field. I've been doing this for a long time, and I've never watched a running back tape that had more missed tackles at the college level than what I saw Saturday. Part of it was horrible tackling, no doubt. And he's doing this every game, though. And so at a certain point, it's about the player. He's forcing these mistackles. He's so dang strong. The contact balance is elite. I love his reactionary reads. I mean, he does not predetermine his path. He's able to make these sudden changes based on what's in front of him, and that's what helps lead to these chunk plays. So I think that coming into the season, there was maybe, Okay, is he fast enough?

Sometimes pursuit catches up to him. He's clocking over 21 miles an hour on the field in terms of just speed. Some will say, Oh, he's too short. Honestly, he might be the perfect runningback size because his stature, he can hide behind blocks, he runs low to the ground, and that helps make him so productive. So you add in that he is absolutely below and I mean beloved, in that Boise community by the program, by the coaching staff. He had some big NIL opportunities this year, talking about close to a million dollars, and he decided to go back to Boise. He said that was his community. He wasn't done there. I mean, his background's a lot of fun, just coming where he came from and all that. But he's one of the most fun players that I studied over the summer. I mean, easy running back one for me going into the year. And so far, he's only helped that projection. I mean, this is a first-round player. It's just a matter of how high does he go.

Outside of just being Derrick Henry, is there a science to being so good at breaking tackles? Because I think you're right. I haven't seen a guy that seems this hard to get down. Why is that the case?

He's built so low to the ground that I think it becomes physics, right? It becomes my ability to have my balance. I have my quick twitch, short area athleticism. But also, if you don't square me up perfectly and hold on, I'm going to be able to squirm out of your attempt. And against half-hearted tackle attempts at the college level, he makes it look easy. Now, obviously, it'll be tougher against better competition. Would love to see Boise make a run to the playoffs this year, just to see how he does against an Ohio State, how would he do against a Texas, an Alabama, one of these teams. But he is a guy that something else that really stands out about him is, and this is why my comparison for him is actually Lydanian Tomlinson, who is a Hall of Famer, and I hate putting that on a guy. But the way he moves, the way he breaks tackles, but also the way that, and this doesn't get talked about nearly enough, is him as a pass catcher. He is a big-time threat as a receiver, just like Lydanian was, that dual threat ability. So it's going to be interesting to see just how high he goes.

Two years ago, we saw Béjian Robinson and Jamir Gibbs go top 13. If Genti were in that class, where does he fit? Maybe for some teams, he'd be running back one. Maybe for other teams, he would have been the third guy. I think it's just a matter of what exactly you want. But from a scouting standpoint, he is absolutely one of the most fun watches you'll have all year.

One of the more interesting prospects that we've seen in the sport, Travis Hunter. What is his future? It look like in the NFL, and how do you think teams will use him.

Travis, he looks different. He looks like he's playing at a different speed than everybody else on the field. I mean that both, athletically and mentally. He has an outstanding football IQ, and he trusts his instincts. So there's no thinking with how he plays. It's just reacting. And because he puts himself in these good positions, he's able to make plays. So I think he deserves so much credit for not only the stamina to play both ways, but I don't think most understand just the commitment, the focus, the intelligence it takes to handle both responsibilities. You have to know the offense of playbook. You have to know the defense and the inner workings of the coverage. You have to spend time in the receiver meeting room. You're spending time with the defensive coaches. And he plays them on special teams, too. So there's a reason why this is so rare. You have to be a super athlete, yes, but also super committed, because the mental side of this is just extremely taxing as well. I get questions every weekend about, Okay, is he a receiver or is he a cornerback at the next level? I think first thing that NFL teams are going to have to do is find out straight from Hunter, which position do you prefer?

My guess would be receiver just because most kids want the ball in their hands. Understandable.

I profiled him last year. He likes defense. I think he's better at receiver right now, but he wants to play defense. He's obsessed with Jalen Ramsey and Deion and their skills as a corner. But I think he looks to me a little bit more natural as a receiver. But you're right. You look at all his pics, especially, they all come off of these insane football IQ plays. He's fascinating to watch defensively. But I don't know. If you spend a first-round draft pick on a guy, you probably can't play him 130 snaps, but he's probably going to want to play both sides. Some, you play him half and half. I don't know. Will that depend on just what team draughts him in those conversations leading into the draft?

Yeah, no doubt. No prospect will be talked about more than Travis Hunter, and what position, and all of that, how are you going to use him? The thing is, in the NFL, there's no such thing as a two-position player. It just doesn't exist. Some players have a primary position, and then they have a secondary position. That does exist. So if I'm an NFL team, I want to know, Okay, how badly do you want to play both ways? And I want you to play on defense because it's just harder to find these guys with that combination of athleticism, smarts, ball skills. But it's also easier for him to be full-time defense and then sprinkle in, Hey, we'll give you 10, 15, 17 snaps a game on offense, as opposed to the other side where, Okay, you're a full-time receiver, and then we'll sprinkle you in on defense. I mean, that's just not going to work smoothly. So if I'm an NFL team, I'm going to try and... Okay, if you really want to play both ways, all right, let's... We'll be full-time a corner. But if he wants to be a receiver, you can't ignore that.

So full-time corner, and we'll have a designed place for you, a certain number of packages every single game and see how that works out. I think regardless, he's going to be a high pick. I mean, he was number three overall in my preseason top 50. It won't be surprising at all if he's the number one non-quarterback drafted this year. Who knows if that could be the number one pick, number two pick, but he's going to go high.

You're the best at doing this. I love the beast. I love your coverage. Nobody is more thorough than you. We got to dig into that knowledge. Who is the under-the-radar prospect that you're falling in love with right now that people are not talking about enough, that's going to be a major player in the draft conversations after the season?

Definitely have a few that I really like. I mean, Iowa State has two really good receivers. Jaden Higgins, the bigger... Noel is the other one, a fun player. But Jaden Higgins, 6'4, good-size receiver. And you see what Nico Collins is doing right now for the Texans. Teams want that bigger receiver who can box out corners, but then also gives you, yeah, has speed. Can Jaden Higgins from Iowa State be that guy this year? He has a lot going on for him. I'm a big fan of Trey Harris, the receiver at Ole Miss. I don't think He's talked about nearly enough.

Crazy numbers this year, too.

Yeah. In that offense with Jackson Dyrth throwing the football, for sure. I'm a big fan. Texas, obviously, Quin Ewares gets talked about a lot. Banks, the Left tackle gets talked about a lot. The right tackle might be the best prospect on that team. The right tackle might be the first Texas player drafted in April. That's how good he Williams. He's 335 pounds, and he moves like he's 235 pounds. So he's raw. This is his first year as a full-time starter, but teams will bet on the traits, and he really stands out in that area. So Texas is a team that's going to be in the mix all the way through the end. Keep an eye on that right tackle because he is a big-time performer.

Well, Dane, thank you for coming on. I love talking to you about this stuff because anytime I've done talking to you, I feel like I've learned something and I am more educated than I was in the conversation we got. I hope our listeners feel the same. Thanks for joining us. Dane Broogler. We'll catch you very, very soon, man.

Anytime. Thanks, David.

That's what we're doing for today's show. Thank you for listening to the latest edition of Until Saturday. We will be back on Thursday with Chris Vanini and Damian Harris for our Week 6 Picks podcast. Listen, the scale doesn't look great. This is when chaos happens. Prepare yourself. We got a lot of pics to get to this week. Consider subscribing to Until Saturday wherever you're listening to our podcast. You'll be notified when episodes published. They'll go right to your device and leave us a voicemail on our Until Saturday voicemail line, 316-462-9852. That is 316-462-9852. We love hearing your voices, your questions, your rants, what you love, what you don't love. It's all good. We'll play your voicemails on our Monday reaction shows. So please give us a call when you're leaving the stadium after a big win, after a loss. If you got a bone to pick with us, we love it all. Get the best college football news and opinions by also subscribing to our free Until Saturday newsletter. Jaina Bardal does a great job for that. The link is in the show's description. So for Ralph Ruso and Dane Brugler, I'm David Uvin. Thank you for listening to Until Saturday.

We will see you again on Thursday. And of course, please bring back the turnover chain. See you guys on Thursday.

Until Saturday. Until Until Saturday. Until Saturday.