Transcript of Joy Duggar on Reflecting on Her Duggar Childhood, Courtship & Postpartum Depression

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It all just crumbling down. Postpartum, my family had a lot of struggles at that time, and then these books come out. I came to a point where I was just like, What do I believe?

What is even real? Your mom literally had how many different pregnancies? Because there was a couple of twins in there.

Well, there's two sets of twins, but she also had a stillbirth with her last, so it would have been 18 pregnancies.

This is so crazy. I totaled my truck.

It was bad. I'm crying, holding his arm. My brother that comes with my dad is like, pops, Joy has She's been holding on to Austin's arm this whole time. They're courting. They're not supposed to even be holding hands.

We sat down with Joy Duger-Forsyth and Austin Forsyth from the hit TV show, 19 Kids and Counting. As a Duger, Joy grew up following the teachings of IBLP, which didn't allow her to wear pants or even hold hands with her boyfriend. In a recent YouTube video, she opened up about how reading her sister, Ginger's book, changed her perspective on her faith. We talk about all this and so much more in today's episode. Hey, real quick, I don't want to take much of your time. I just, first of all, want to thank you guys for being here. Abby and I have put a lot of work into making this show happen. And the fact that we're at over 80 episodes now, we're nearing 100 episodes. Holy cow. That means a lot. Thank you to everyone that has been here since the beginning. And if you're new here, welcome. We are so happy you're here. If you could just leave us a review on Apple podcast or Spotify podcast, that would mean the world to us. We're still trying to get the word out the show. We're hoping that these episodes are able to impact your life in some way because we're just inspired.

We're just getting started. There's so many people that have come up to us and said, Wow, Abby, when you opened up about how hard postpartum was after your birth, thank you for doing that because it really changed me. Hearing people come up to us and just, I don't know, be real about how the podcast has impacted their life, it really means a lot to us. We appreciate you guys. Now, back to the episode. What's up, dudes? And welcome back to the Unplanned podcast.

Yeah. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for being here, you guys. Seriously. Oh, yeah.

Thank you guys for having us.

I wanted to just jump right in because I want to know more about your love story. I think it's so cool hearing about the courting process because we got married young, but that was something that we never did. And I noticed, Joy, you had opened up on your YouTube channel about how did you want your kids to court one day? I thought it'd be interesting just to hear more about what courting was like for you guys and just your love story. Yeah.

Okay. Well, it starts a long time ago, over 20 years ago now. Not really. But we met. So I was four and he was eight when we originally met our families. I have no recollection of that, obviously. But his family had moved from Texas at the time and moved to Arkansas and started coming to my family's church. And then we saw each other on and off until- Yeah, same homeschool events or whatever.

We would see each other on and off throughout the year. Yeah.

And then once you got your driver's license, is when we started seeing each other a lot more. Yeah. And he would come up and play flag football with my brothers, whatever. We had- Oh, nice. Once a week, they would play football, or we had this sport called broom ball that we would play once a week. And so he would come up I would see him there. And I don't remember actually like, Oh, there's Austin. That's me.

I like him. Was it because I was around so much?

Yeah. Well, because you started coming around. And then also, I just turned 13 at this time. I was 13, almost 14 at this time. And so I remember meeting you, knowing who your family was around that time. And then at 14, I started crushing hard on you. And I was I remember Jill actually telling me one time because I was like, I just like him so much, and whatever. And she's like, I was like, How do you feel? It's the one. She was like, I don't know. She was going down this list of things, and I was talking to her, and she was like, Well, can you imagine your life without him? I was probably 15 at this point, and I was like, I can't imagine my life without Austin in it. Just because he was around. And I think it's probably the teenage whatever. But I just felt so sure that at Someday I was going to end up with him. And he didn't... I don't think he ever knew that I was... Did you ever know that I had a crush on you? No.

Anyway, so at- I mean, I'm 18, right? She's 14. I'm 18. That would be weird. Yeah. I'm hanging out with her older brother, John, who's what? He's 22 at the time. Yeah, he's 22 at the time. And I'm 18.

He was oblivious that I didn't exist.

You weren't even paying attention to Yeah, that makes sense.

The legit story of, I'm over here. You don't even know I exist. Yeah, I knew she existed. I knew who she was, but not on my radar, obviously at all, because that would have been weird..

So wait, when did she become on your radar? When did you start to notice her? Okay.

That is a long story.

You don't have to go into detail.

So I was 21, and I'd been interested in this other girl.

And he had been talking to me and Ginger and Janna about this other girl that he was going to go ask. Oh, snap. Talking to you about it? Yes. Oh, yeah.

And I was 17 at this point, right? Yeah. So at that time, yeah, I'm 21. I was close with John, her brother, and some of her other younger ones, but mainly John. And We were in flight school together, John and I. And I don't know, it was weird, but Janna... Well, okay. So I was flipping houses at the same time. Single. My dad was in construction, and so I started flipping houses when I was 17. And one of them was in Springdale, somewhat close to where they lived. And so her brothers would come over and help me on projects, whatever. I was laying floor. They'd come over and help me lay floor, help me do stuff. Well, she would come over as well.

I gladly offered my services because my dad taught us how to lay tile all of that growing up. So I was like, Oh, your tile in your bathroom? I'll come over and I'll help you. And so, yeah, just to spend time with it.

So Janna and her and Ginger, it was this time where we were all close, right? And so I'm telling them about this girl that I want to Start dating down in Texas.

And I was fully supportive. I was like, That's so good for you. I'm so happy. And it crushed on the inside. Like, Okay, maybe this isn't going to happen.

So fast forward, that didn't happen. And Yeah. And so I was at a place in my life where I had spent a year definitely mentally pursuing this girl. Her brother out of the blue invites me to go to flight school. He's like, Hey, man, why Why don't you come down and go to flight school with me? He had already been through his private and some other certifications. He's like, Hey, why don't you come get your private pilot's license? I was like, All right, I guess I ain't got anything else going on. I'll come and do that. And so at that point, I was at a place in my life where I was like, You know what? I'm tired of just spending my wheels. And I wasted so much time and energy and thought in this relationship that I wanted to work out. It didn't work out. And I'm ready for something new. And so while I'm at flight school, long story. It's almost over. While I'm at flight school, one day, I get out of bed, I'm sitting there, and the thought comes in my mind, What about Joy? And I'm like, No, she's way too young.

No. I just said, I'm not going to be distracted by other things. No. And And so long story short, she was all I could think about. I'm at flight school, literally trying to learn how to fly airplanes. And the only thing I can think about is, What about Joy? I think for me, it was a place of contentment that I needed to be in my life. And so didn't tell a soul.

Okay, so on my side is, I'm 17, almost 18 at this point.

Well, you were because this is December.

I just turned 18.

You just turned 18.

Okay. So at this point, I'm talking to my parents every night, my mom, my dad. I feel like I'm going to marry this guy. I don't know what to do. And my dad's like, Well, I don't know if it'll ever happen because we knew him growing up. My dad knew whatever, and he didn't want to get my hopes up for something. And so I'm talking to them, but I'm the same way. I'm like, I literally cannot stop thinking about him. And that's like, I want to get married. Made tomorrow. And I had not shown interest. I really tried to not be that girl that's pursuing him and throwing myself at him because I'm like, what if he's not? I don't want to ruin our relationship because we were good friends at this point. We were talking. He would share stuff that he was going through. So I feel like we both came to that point at the same time, unknowingly, that we were both just thinking about each other. God, is this what you have for us? But none of None of us knew that the other person was thinking the same thing.

Yeah.

Did your parents like Austin when you brought up Austin?

Not really.

Well, so here's the thing. So here's That's the thing. They've known me since I was eight years old, and I went through a little bit of a rebellious time for several years.

He's a little bit of a wild card.

Well, in our circle.

You know what I mean? Yeah. In our circles. In secular worlds, none at all.

But in our circles, he was a little bit wild.

Started listening to AC/DC and Kiss on the weekends.

Yeah. Or just country music. Oh, just country music. Yes, country music. That was enough.

Oh, country music Was that always considered like, no? Yes.

100 %.

Okay. Because I thought country music was wholesome. My mom always told me, she was like, Man, this is so wholesome and the storytelling. It's beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pop, too. I listen to pop and whatever. So if we want to get a little more- Some.

Some. Some room 5 in there.

Yeah.

So they didn't like your music choices?

Well, no.

They had no clue about my music choices.

They didn't know anything about that. He was hanging with the wrong crowd, which they were. I mean, your friends now, or their lives are torn apart, the ones that you had hung out with back then.

Yeah, a lot of them.

And you could... Yeah.

Well, yeah. I assume that.

I don't- He just had a few years that he was the rebellious one in the circle.

And I didn't That didn't really fit the mold of the conservative homeschool kids, right?

He didn't have a shirt tucked in.

His bow pulled tight. When we would go swimming, I'd take my shirt off. I know That seems totally natural. Why wouldn't you? Okay. But the world in which she grew up in is like, you swim fully clothed.

Like in a dress. Yeah.

Well, yeah. The boys didn't wear dresses, but yeah. Yeah, not for the boys.

But boys, you had to wear a T-shirt as a boy.

T-shirt, blue jeans, no shorts.

Wait, blue jeans? In a pool? Swimming in a pool?

Now, they loosened up. But yeah, we used to... My brothers would wear jeans for the longest time until probably the last, I don't know, 10 years, maybe.

Okay. Wow. Okay. Let's elaborate on that because I'm just so fascinated now. Because I knew that women had to wear a dress or girls had to wear a dress or something to go swimming. But I know that the guys had to wear full on blue jeans and a shirt.

At least they were consistent with girls and boys.

Yeah, at least they were. My parents, and I think that's a lot of it. I don't know. I feel like they had this standard because they didn't want guys showing their thighs. And so they were like, okay, and girls either. And so they were like, Shorts are on the line. And so my brothers, probably until I was 15, 16, they didn't wear shorts. And then when I was probably a huge...

I was. I was a huge impact on the boys, especially today, taking their shirts off and wearing shorts.

Oh, because you were the one homeschool kid that did.

Yeah. When I was over there, it's like swim time. Shirt comes off, and then it's like, well, we don't do that here.

There were times that you were respectful, and you were like, okay, I know their family didn't do that, so I'm not going to do that. Oh, they told you, I'm not going to do that.

But you were the one kid that was like, he's the one that's not wearing blue jeans and a T-shirt in the pool. That freaking Austin.

Yeah. I was that That kid, right? Okay.

Back to what we were originally talking about.

Sounds like you were just crazy.

You were crazy, man. Maybe so.

Well, there's some other stuff.

To you, I'd be like, that guy's normal. Kind of normal. Kind of normal. I'm not normal, but I'm normal. At this point, he's known me for, what, 15 years or something. So it's almost easier having a clean slate, a guy walking in with a clean slate.

Like, Jeremy had it easy, right? Not really.

I think He did.

I think all the brothers-in-law- Professional soccer players.

Austin's like, compared to me, they had it easy because they didn't... I think so.

He had to count for everything since he was eight years old. Yes.

There's just a lot more dirt that can be had on somebody if you've known them since they were a child. So I think that is the answer to that, is why it's like- How did you convince him then?

Or how did this even come to be? Because you're both in your own worlds crushing on each other, thinking about a relationship, but you haven't We haven't crossed past yet in that way.

Well, you're dead, right?

Yeah. So I just kept it hush-hush, and I just prayed about her for two months.

Well, we see each other on a weekly basis. And at this point, we started going to church together again. Yeah. And so we were seeing each other three times a week, at least, if not more.

Yeah. And so I never flirted with her. I just wanted to keep it... I felt like I jumped the gun and just was immature in the previous way I pursued this other girl. And so I just was like, I'm not in a hurry. I just want to really take my time on this.

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So I prayed about it for a couple of months, and I was praying some very specific things. So I was asking the Lord that he would lay it on my dad's heart, which may sound weird. I don't know. I don't know you all's background necessarily. If I sound like a complete weirdo, maybe I am. No, not at all. Maybe I am. I was asking specifically that God would lay it on my dad's heart, and I just really value his opinion and his outlook. I wanted his blessing. I wanted his old-fashioned, just want my dad's blessing, wanted her parents' blessing on the deal. And so after two months of praying, me and my dad are riding around in the farm truck, fixing barbed wire fences. And I was like, If God hasn't put it on his heart at this point, then I've probably missed it, and I'll reevaluate. So I was like, Dad, let me ask you a question. Do you think there's anybody that I should be pursuing? I've been flipping houses, whatever, doing this. Am I missing something? Do you see something in my life, basically, that I should be doing that I'm not doing?

And do you think there's a girl maybe that I'm 22 at this point? Yeah, 22. Do you think there's a girl I might should be pursuing? And he was like, I named off a couple. And he was like, No, no, no, no, no, I think this is really weird, but God's really laid Joy Duggar on my heart, and I think you should start praying about her. And I was like, Well, I have been praying about her, and I've been praying specifically that God would lay her on your heart and that you'd be praying about her.

Wow. Which is just so crazy because I knew him, but I did not spend a lot of time with his parents at this point. I saw them every once in a while. I would go out to their farm and work. They have a family camp that his family runs, and they have shooting ranges and stuff. So I would help with activities at the family camp or the youth camps or whatever that they do. And so that would be a couple of times a year, I would see his parents every once in a while. And then sometimes at church, I'd run into him. But for his dad to say that is crazy.

I obviously thought it was providential. At that point, I was like, Okay, I think I'm getting serious about this. And so I went and talked with her dad. And him and I, in our circles, obviously, if you're pursuing the girl, then the dad calls the shots. And he may be totally hands-off, or he may make you jump through a bunch of hoops. If the girl wants to follow her dad and have him involved in her. She could rebel and just go off and do her own thing. But if she wants her dad's blessing and whatever in the circle, it's like the dad gets to call the shots. And so we started talking for a couple of months.

Were you nervous for this conversation?

I was nervous, but I had such a confidence that this is what I was supposed to be doing. It was like, All right, Jim Bob, when are you going to get on board? Because I know where I'm heading, so the quicker- Was it clear at that time that you guys were both interested in each other, but the courting hadn't started?

No. Oh, you both didn't know that you both They liked each other? No.

That's so interesting. So I'm talking to Jim Bob for probably a month and a half, and then he finally is like, Hey, I probably should tell you that Joy actually really likes you, and she He didn't tell you for how long.

But yeah, he said basically it goes both ways.

What was this conversation like? Were you calling him on the phone?

Did you even know this was going on?

A phone call every day?

No, I was going over there. I had no idea that this was going on.

Over at the house.

Was this once a Once a week.

Once a week.

They had a set up-time. I had no idea.

Was he more on the strict side or is this pretty typical?

I was just 18. So at this point, I think it wasn't like some of my other sisters had gotten married in their early 20s or whatever. And he knew where I was. So I don't think he wanted to tell me anything until he knew that something might be happening. Just for my heart's sake. Yeah. And so, yeah, I didn't know until he... One night, he called me. My dad was like, Hey, Joy, I don't want to talk to you. And he's like, I just wanted to let you know that Austin has come and asked if he can get to know you more than a friend. And I just remember like, Are you kidding me? Or are you serious? I didn't know if he was joking with me. And I just started bawling because this had been four years at this point that I had been And talking about him, talking to my sisters about him. I had the biggest crush- Watching me go pursue other girls. Yeah. And trying to be supportive of him. Yeah. Anyways. And so I just remember I was so excited. But also at that point, I was like, Wait, do I want this to happen?

I don't know if I want to marry this guy or go in courtship to get married eventually. And so all the emotions were crazy.

That must have been really hard, too, to see him pursue another girl when you've been crushing on him for at that point, three years. Was it?

It was hard. But at the same time, I think we had that friendship that I wanted what was best for him. And so if that's what's best for him, I want that. But yeah, it was definitely hard.

I had no clue that she had interest in me. And I'm not completely oblivious. You know what I mean? I wasn't completely oblivious, but she did a really good job of not flirting with me.

I didn't want to make it weird. I didn't want to make our friendship weird. And so I just tried to treat you like I would any other guy.

Yeah. That's sweet. I learned from talking with Ginger and Jeremy that there's a checklist of things that Jim Bob runs you through. So when did that meeting happen? Tell me about that Meeting with Jim Bob.

That was pretty early on in our conversations where he gave me that list and wanted me to fill it out. Man, I think the questions in the list, a lot of them were good. Just figuring out where somebody is with their religious beliefs and finances and family planning and just different stuff like that. Maybe some of it really doesn't... The father-in-law, maybe not any of his business. But there's like, Have you ever been arrested? Have you ever whatever? And so he knew all that. You know what I mean? He knew a lot of that stuff.

Had you been arrested before? No.

Wow. Still to this day.

Still to this day. You made it 30 years.

I made it 30 years. Hey, that's pretty good. For you, man. That's awesome. I haven't been caught. No, I'm just kidding.

You have been arrested. The way you're like, Good for you, man. Kind of makes it seem like how well I just- I've had three speeding tickets.

Any speeding tickets?

Man, I have had one ticket for an improper display of a license plate.

So it's not a speeding ticket?

Yeah, it's not a speeding ticket. I do get pulled over for speeding.

Sorry to cut you off. That was my ADHD showing. But back to the questionnaire, though.

Yes, I did fill out one and submitted it to them. That was pretty early in our conversations, if I remember.

I want to know how many men have been disqualified based on this questionnaire that your dad has issued.

See, that's where I'm like, I don't know. I feel like that's which we've talked about this. And I think my parents have said, too. I want They said, We're going to have the way we parent, but we want to be a stepping stool for you all and you all figure out what... Do it better than us is what they've told us. And so I feel like that's one thing that I'm like, I appreciate the idea behind it. I think I would tweak it some because, like he said, any guy can come in and be like, Oh, I know. Especially because we grew up on TV. People know our standards are out there. What we allow, what we don't allow, at least what my dad allows doesn't allow. And so I feel like any guy could have come in and filled out the questionnaire and answered all the right questions and been like, oh, yeah, you're good to go. You filled it all out. You know what to say, you know what not to say.

I think that's a good point. Imagine how many guys reached out to the family, whatever, whether it was the girls or Jim Bob or whatever, to date his daughters. I don't even know what the number is. Hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of guys. Oh, yeah.

I was actually just going through... Well, since we moved a couple of weeks ago, I was going through all my boxes, and I had my keepsake boxes. I had letters in there from when I was 16, 17. Guys from jail or guys from just random. Jail? Yes.

Jail, writing you letters?

Yeah. And my mom obviously would read them first because she's like, this is weird. But then we'd all laugh about it. But guys asking to court me. And one guy, I'm sure his mom wrote it, but it was cursive handwriting and this whole long letter about how good he is, an option for me. And God's telling him that I should marry him, all this stuff.

Wait, hold up, though. Tell me more about this. What's the most unique one you've had? Because you said someone wrote you from jail. They were literally in jail.

So I only have one from jail. It had a picture. How many do you have? No, but some of my older sisters, they have multiple. And these Guys from prison be watching and then write letters, and you would see so and so, they're on a correctional facility.

Yeah, from the Florida state penitentiary with their number.

Yeah, they would ask to be your pen pal if they didn't ask to marry you. But yeah, some of my sisters have quite a few.

Did they ask for your hand in marriage from jail?

I mean, they're probably so down bad that they're just like, what can I do?

The guy that wrote me, I think, was asking just to be a pen pal. Okay. But I'm pretty sure Janna has a couple that were like, I want to marry you or you're my forever soulmate, that stuff.

Dang.

Yeah, it's crazy.

That is wild.

I would have never thought of that. And back then, when it first started, it was weird. But then back then, I was like, Oh, you got another one? It was just somewhat normal. That is wild.

Did you ever entertain a conversation with this guy who had very nice cursive handwriting and wrote you a letter?

No, I didn't write him back. Is that bad? That's not bad.

Did you ever write anybody write that? No. Anybody write?

No? No. I was a really bad pimpal. I did not enjoy book reading or writing. Even the people I loved, I would just email them back. I would just email them back.

That's wild. I didn't realize how many men were sending an application.

Anywhere we went, I went on quite a few different vacations and just different stuff with the family, even as a single guy, before I was even interested in her. And literally everywhere we went, guys were approaching Jim Bob Hey, can I talk to your daughter? Or if we went on a vacation somewhere, it was crazy. So I think it was a vetting process that he had.

I don't know. Wow. Is there anything similar for the guys, for the sons? Or is he just expecting the daughter's dad to vet their sons? Not really. Yeah.

Normally, the daughter's dad would... Whatever her rules are normally is whatever all the rules would be.

Interesting. So your dad wasn't as involved in your brother's courtships as much as he was?

Yeah, they've been very different. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. My brother. So it depends. I mean, I think they obviously have some ground rules. Like, this is what we don't want you all to do. But I think anything past that, like any standards, any whatever lines not to cross, would be set by the girls' parents. So my brothers are pretty... They're very a wide variety of how their relationships went.

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And Austin, was that intimidating to date someone, to court somebody from this famous family on TV? Did that intimidate you knowing how big the stakes were? You didn't want to be the talking point on the next TV episode. Yeah, that Austin guy really sucks. He broke Joyous Heart, and now we should cancel him. Did that freak you out?

It did. And I think that because this is obviously when the show is still blown and going, right? So I think that's why Jim Bob wanted to have a month and a half relationship with me, right? Before to see how real it is and just, you know what I mean? Because, yeah, to introduce a guy onto your family's TV show, and then next season or next episode, he's gone. Just don't want that constant drama of news. Well, what happened to such and such, and this and that, and whatever.

It gets messy.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I don't blame him at all for wanting to... The guys that came, let's nail it down. We keep everything quiet. We want to make sure between me and him, this is really something that potentially is going to happen before anybody else finds out about it.

I mean, we didn't have anything similar, really, to a courtship at all. But from an outside perspective, I can look at that and be like, it's really cool that you had someone that was not emotional at all about the decision, really. Granted, he was your father. He's biased and wants to take care of you. But to be like, okay, well, even just the basic stuff is like, oh, well, you want multiple children, or she hasn't... I don't No. Just to look at it in a black and white aspect, that is nice. Yeah. Did you like having- Anything that's going to be a deal breaker, it's already out. It's like, oh, well, we're not going to mess with your heart and emotions.

I'm curious, since you guys have opened up about not having your kids go through the same courtship process you went through, are you thankful for it? Do you wish there's things you could change about how the process went for you, or do you think it was the best thing that you guys needed at the time?

I am a big believer in it's not what happens to you, it's how you respond to it. And so I feel like we would not be the same people that we are. In any life circumstances that happens to us, it's made a sense of people that we are. And so we can't change that. And so I There's really not any... I'm sure you can chime in on this, too. But for me, I don't think that there's anything else that I would change because all of those things, yes, there were things that were hard about it. I'm like, I'm not going to do that. But I wouldn't change it because I've grown from that. I've learned from it. And I'm like, Okay, well, what am I going to do different with my kids? What am I going to do the same? Or what can I tweak from this? And so, yeah, there are definitely things that we will change, but I'm not upset about it at all.

Obviously, you can't change the past, but at the time, did it feel too legalistic? Did it feel weird that you needed to have a third person with you guys at all times, no matter what? Did that infringe on your connection at all?

Not for me, anyways, because I guess having a chaperone with us or all the standards that we had, that was all I ever knew. And so I knew once we had a courtship, these are the standards that we're going to have. And I don't know about for you, but for me, that was And I think once we got into engagement, I was like, okay, we could let up a little bit. This is a little bit much. But there were a few things that I was like, the little brother or the older brother that would be like, Hey, Daddy, they are They're side-hugging for too long. And I'm like, Oh, my word.

Was that a thing? Did you guys side-hug for too long?

Oh, I mean, yeah.

Are there rules for that? I totaled my truck.

Okay, yeah. This is one of the scenarios. Austin was coming from his camp. I was in front of him in my own car. We were coming from my parents house. Okay, yeah. So his parents house, we were all headed back home. I was in my car. He was in his car. And I'm driving before him. So I'm driving, and I'm probably five minutes ahead of you. And he gets in a wreck and totals his truck.

And so I call- A meth head ran me off the... Came in a blind curve in my lane, and it was, Hit the car or take the ditch. And I was in a three-quarter ton diesel, I would have killed whoever was in the car. So I took the ditch.

So it was bad. He could have died. And so he calls me, and I'm like, Okay, I'll turn around. I call my dad, and I'm like, Hey, can I go over there? I Lost and wrecked. Because I want to respect the rules at this point. We're not supposed to be without anybody like a chaperone.

But you're what? 19 at this point?

Yeah. Probably, right? No, 18 still. Because we- Yeah, you hadn't turned- I hadn't probably turned 19 yet. Maybe 19. Anyway. But you're engaged. Yeah. No, not at this point, are we? Not quite. Not quite. Almost. We were waiting. We knew that we were going to get married, but we weren't engaged yet.

That's so fascinating to me for you as a 19-year-old to call to ask your dad's permission. When I was 19, I was like, I'm gone.

See you guys. Peace. I didn't want to rock the boat, and I never felt the need to. I always wanted to be respectful to my parents, and I didn't I knew their heart behind it wasn't to hurt me, I guess. And so for me, I knew that my dad would prefer me to call him. So I call him, and he was like, Hey, I'll head over that way. You can go. I don't know if I went ahead. Did I go ahead and go?

I think I did. No, you went on to town.

I did. I waited for him. Oh, yeah, because I came in the record. So I went to town and then rode back with my dad. So I run up, give him a big hug, whatever. The rest of the time, I'm holding onto his arm, which at this point, we weren't holding hands yet. We were corny.

Is he almost died? Yeah.

But I'm crying, holding his arm for probably a 10, 15 minutes. Well, my brother that comes with my dad is like, pops, Joy has been holding on to Austin's arm this whole time, and they're courting. They're not supposed to even be holding hands. And pops looks back, annoying.

I'm like, Can I speak with you in the back for a minute? That's That's what I'm thinking.

pops looks back, and he's like, Joy, you should probably let go of his arm. And I'm like, Look at my brother, so annoyed. But I was like, Whatever. It's fine. So anyway, just scenarios like that where I'm like, Can you- It's not the end of the world. You don't have to follow the book on everything. You know my heart behind it. It's not to get away with stuff. I genuinely was worried about his safety and is he okay?

And for you, though, had you done this process before? Like the previous girl, did you guys ever hold hands, or was this whole courting thing completely new to you?

Yeah, we didn't get that far with the other girl. My sister had gotten married a year before this, and They didn't have chaperones. My dad's theory is like, If I can't trust you with my daughter right now, then why would I trust you with her being her husband and whatever? And so I was around it. That was That was the group, the homeschool group, whatever that we were around, was of that mindset. But my family wasn't necessarily like that. We never had conversations, not one time, of these are the rules, these are what you can do, these are what you can do. But I think I still knew what his wishes were in different scenarios, and I would have tried to honor that. I wanted his blessing.

I think you knew coming in, though, to our family, that that is what- Oh, I did. That's just what is expected. So I think it wasn't like, Oh, my goodness, what is this?

Yeah, I think if you're a guy and you're like, Well, I'm That's stupid, and I'm not going to do that. Okay, well, you're never going to marry a daughter. And if you're okay with that, then it's fine. So there's certain things that if you want to go through this process, these are the things you have to do. And I knew going into it. And it was a hard pill to swallow, knowing all that. Not just that, but the show and just everything that goes with that. So I knew what I was getting myself into.

I think the outside looking in, I'm thinking about our experience. I felt very hands-on in choosing my husband. At what point, if your dad's like, Oh, here's this guy that's interested. He's passed my test. At what point are you like, I approve of this, or is it just like, this is moving forward before? You know what I mean?

No. Yeah. My parents, at least my experience for me, and I had talked to some of my other sisters, too, but they My dad and my mom would always, if a guy come talk to him, Hey, are you interested in this? And if the girl said, No way, but no, they would say no.

That's the end.

Yeah, that's the end of it. Or if they said yes, then it would move slowly. If my parents had any cautions, they would talk to us about it. They wouldn't just cut it off. So from my experience, that never was happened.

You had to say. I mean, you could have... Oh, yeah. Yes or no.

I definitely had to say.

Would you say that there was a feeling of safety or comfort in knowing that there was such a high standard for the guys that entered your life?

Yeah, I think so. I think there's a balance, obviously. I pray The way that we are balanced with our kids. I know that I had talked to another friend of mine that she was like, I just wish that my dad even cared who I dated. She's like, I just wish that he would even talk to my boyfriend before things move forward and not just, Hey, can I marry your daughter? She's like, I wish he would have the... Even just want to get to know my future husband, possibly. And so I think after hearing that, I told my dad, I was like, Thank you for even being concerned and being interested. And I think there could be a balance, but I don't know. I guess I always saw the positive side of it for me, personally.

I think it's really cool that you mentioned earlier that your parents said, Here's We did the best we can, but do better. Basically, tweak what you didn't like in our parenting. I think that's really, really humble. And I don't think a lot of parents have that posture. I can only hope that we would have that posture. Their children are like, We're doing everything we can, but I know there's areas that we can improve, and you make it better.

I took a look at your guys' YouTube channel, and it was cool seeing you guys make these family blogs and these posts and just open up about your story from your perspective. And You're the one shaping the narrative, not a TV network that has certain things they want. It was just interesting to see everything from your perspective. And something you opened up about in, I think it was a Q&A, you mentioned reading both of your sister's books, Ginger's book and Jill's book. And you mentioned something that really made me curious. You said that talking to them, reading their books, all that had rocked your world. And I wanted to know what you meant by that. Okay.

I'll probably get emotional because I always get emotional about this stuff. Let's just rewind. So with Guner, I had a super hard postpartum, and it was the darkest time of my life. Anyway, but it was really good, but it was super hard. And so I feel like I just went through this with the hormone change. You know how it is.

Totally.

The hormones were super, super hard. And so you're going through postpartum, and then I felt like my family was just falling apart. And then a lot- Not you and me. No, not you and us. But just my siblings and my parents and all this stuff was super hard at that time. And so I came to a point where I was just like, what is even real? What do I believe? All this stuff. Anyway. Take a break.

Now, we can take as much time as you want.

Do you have tissue? Sorry. Totally. You're good. Thank you. Of course.

You can just take the whole Okay.

I'll probably need it. Anyway, so I came to this point in my life where I was just like, Okay, what's... And I think Austin had gone through this earlier when he went through a belly and was like, Okay, what am I going to believe in myself? What am I going to... He figured that out a lot earlier than I did. But I feel like it was good, and I can see now, looking back, how much God grew me in that season. But I do feel like Ginger's book, specifically, was talking about just your faith in God and taking it from more of like, what can I do? But really, we grew up with so many standards, and I was great at keeping all of these standards. And my parents never preached one time that it was, you do all these things, and then God will accept you. But that's how I took it, personally. And so my whole life, I was doing all these things. And my whole Christianity was always a checklist. I got to read my Bible, check. I got to pray. Check. All these things. And so I feel like it all came just crumbling down when postpartum, my family had a lot of struggles at that time, and then these books come out.

And I had to work through these things that I had... I guess I'd always felt like, I'm never going to question God. I'm never going to do that. It was almost prideful of me to say, I'm never going to get to this point in my life where I will. And then I got to that point and God's like, Yeah, you're not perfect, and you don't have it all together, and your world's falling apart. And so what are you going to do about it? And so it was probably... I mean, that was a super hard time for us just because I out of it. And mentally, I just couldn't handle a lot. It was probably a good six, seven, eight, nine months. I just had a hard time getting out of bed, had a hard time just doing what I need to do. And then, spiritually, on top of that, it was super hard. And so I feel like Ginger's book, I listened to it. I would talk to her a lot. And I had a lot of really good counselors in my life, and I went and actually saw a counselor for these issues, and that was really good.

Just working through. He really encouraged me. He kept saying, Don't just ask all these questions and not search for answers. He was like, If you have these big questions of, Is God real? Or, Does God care about me? Or bigger doctrinal questions. He's like, You need to be proactive and search those out, because he's like, I want you to know for yourself. I'm not going to. And I really appreciate that about Austin, because I know not everybody has such a supportive husband, but he never made me feel like, I can't believe you're going through this, and I can't believe you're questioning God. He was constantly there supporting me, wanting me to grow, become a better person, and encouraging me to start stuff out for myself. Anyway, the long answer to that question is I think it really helped me spiritually taking my faith from a lot of fear-based, that's similar to Gengers, a lot of fear-based, to searching things out for myself and knowing that God loves me no matter what I do or what I don't do. I feel like it's a journey, and I'm still searching things out. But I got the... I searched in the word.

I asked God. I was praying. And I feel like God gave me so many areas of just peace and answering questions in that dark season.

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What is it like to go through conflict in your family when everything is just on blast? It seems like every media outlet wants to make a story about it. They want to monetize, get the clicks. How does affect you personally? How does that affect your family? Because I don't think many people understand what it's like to have your personal life on display for literally everyone to see.

We've created this own little bubble. And so we try really hard not to read a lot of comments and to search news. We know it's out there, and we can't control that. But we can control what we let in to our minds, our family, and then how it affects us. So we really try to keep a lid on just not letting so much bad into our minds and consuming our thoughts. And there's a balance, right? Because you don't want to be naive to everything that's going on. But for instance, I cannot look at comments on Instagram or on any social media. I just can't handle it. It makes me so mad. And I want to get on there and start being a keyboard Karen.

Keyboard Karen. That's like Abby's mom.

So I can't- Don't even bring it up. Hey, that's my mom. She'll call me. She'll be like, Can you believe what they're saying about you? I'm like, Mom, I don't even want to know. And don't you get on there and say nothing?

She at one point, she You did not date an account under another name?

No, my dad did.

I think it was my dad. You're like, We're going to have this good comeback just so they could come back at certain comments. I'm like, How do you even know how to do that?

It's literally a way It's a waste. Trying to rebuttal people that literally have nothing better to do than to sit there and criticize and whatever. It's a complete waste of your time. I think there may be somebody that you could respond on to, and maybe they would be like, Oh, well, you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. But that's not been our experience. I think one time we had a lady do that, where we commented back, and then she direct messaged us and was like, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Oh, wow. Yeah. But that's not the norm. And so we have to limit what we led into our lives as far as that's concerned.

He's really good about that. I'm not. I'll be like, Okay, I won't read the comments. I know it affects me. She does.

Two hours later, you're on your phone. Yeah.

And I'm like, get off your phone. Stop. It's poison.

Yeah, it really is. And on the bigger scheme, for our family, it's hard. But then if it's bigger family stuff, I say bigger family, that's my parents and all of my siblings. I think it's on a whole another level, just because everything you do, if you take a picture and you're not smiling all the way. Oh, Joyce, whatever.

She's miserable. She's going to divorce Austin.

It's just constantly jumping to conclusions, and it is difficult.

The other thing I think that's really helped us is we have a really close group of friends at church, and so we don't have to search for that community and that camaraderie. Our friends, they could care less who we are. And so I think most of them don't even know what's going on. They don't know what the hot topic is in the family or whatever. And so surrounding ourselves with those people who are just genuine. We just have genuine relationships. I think that's really helped us.

That's so good. I think that's really cool that you have those people that are disconnected from that world. But then sometimes, can it feel lonely if it's like, okay, I am public in this. So sometimes I can feel isolated.

For me, personally, no, because my best friend is Carlyn Bates. I don't know if it was Stuart. Anyway, so I feel like their family had 19 kids as well. We grew up together, and we're both number nine in the lineup. Oh, wow. They have 19 kids, right? And they had a TV show. A lot of it is similar. And so I have my siblings, too. And so I feel like for me, it's not as isolating because I have some people that I know that have some similar background and know what we're going through.

I don't. I've got Jeremy. I'll text Jeremy. He'll be like, Bro, that's crazy. Stay off the internet. It's wild.

What does the media get wrong about your family?

The one thing that comes to my mind that irks me is people are always saying, Oh, your page is controlled by your dad, and your YouTube is controlled by your dad. And that stuff. I'm like, We are our own family. And I can say that, but people are obviously going to believe what they believe.

Well, I'll be honest with you guys. And I feel like I've let headlines construe my view of things, too, because I was looking at your YouTube channel and I saw this really sweet vlog of your son's birthday party. And it was like, you guys and both your parents were there. And it just seemed like everyone was having such a genuine good time. But in my head, because of headlines that I've seen about your family, I almost thought, I don't know, maybe you're not talking to your parents. Maybe you guys don't have a relationship. I have no idea. But then seeing you in this YouTube video just have a genuine fun birthday party together, it really changed my perspective.

Yeah. I think that's just... Yeah, it's reality. That's how it is.

That's the point of our YouTube. One of them is to... If you want to know what's going on, come and watch our YouTube. Don't look at TMZ or InTouch or whatever. Watch what we're putting out there.

Yeah. Because people all the time, oh, well, who's in the feud now? And then they'll have all their speculations, and then we'll post a video or something. They're like, Oh, well, I guess that wasn't true. And then they write something up the next day.

In the media, when there's a story about Ben and Jess are fighting, or Jess doesn't look happy, or Joy gave Austin whatever in this picture, she's going to divorce them. That stuff is just not even accurate. And then whatever. If there's some other headline of, I think maybe one of the siblings is getting married or something. Sometimes they get it right. Sometimes it's like, Okay, who told the media? Who told the media, Janna is fixing to get married or whatever? And so there is bits of, how did that get out?

Did that happen with Janna? When she was getting married, did someone leak to the media that she was getting married before? I think so.

Who was it?

Do you guys know who the whistleblower was?

We have our suspicious.

Was it from within the family or outside?

No, it's outside the family.

It's outside the family.

Do they get paid for that information?

I'm sure somebody does.

I would think so.

That's such a weird world to live in where you're like, I have to- It's somebody that had a invitation, and they were very- Or got a picture of one.

Or got a picture of an invitation. That's too bad. Yeah, and then leaked it.

Did they leak the location and the date and everything? Yeah. That's so wrong. It's one thing to leak that Janna is getting married, but then to leak her wedding venue. They actually did that?

Yeah. That's so sad. We're just regular people, right? We don't have security that follows- You're not Kim Kardashian with 10 security guards around you at all times. No. But you have to think, there are crazies.

There are crazies. People that hate our family. Okay.

For instance, three weeks ago, we got a loud knock on the door at 11:30 at night, and it's Domino's. And they said, We got to order for Joy Anna Duger.

Joy Anna Duger. Okay, well that- Not foresight, Duger.

That immediately tells me, All right, somebody's... And I was like, All right, is it paid for? They're like, No. And I said, Okay, was there a message? You got a number? Who ordered this? They're like, Yeah, the message just says, This is for Joy Anna Duger, and knock really loud at the door at 11:30 at night.

That's so messed up. Who at Domino's was like, Yeah, this checks out. Knock really loud. I guess maybe if someone's not by the door.

So with that stuff- And she felt bad.

She was like, I'm so sorry. And I was like, I felt bad. I was like, I could pay for the pizza, but she's like, I'll just take it back to the store. Don't worry about it. You're so sweet. Well, it happened all the time to my family. Multiple times people would deliver stacks of pizza and not pay for it. And so then my parents would just pay for it.

People just show up at the door, babe. People would just come, hop over the fence, knock on the door. And so when something like that gets leaked, like Janna's wedding, it's like, is some crazy going to come up here and interrupt the whole thing or media?

For all of our weddings, while we were filming, the film crew would provide security for the wedding so that nobody crazy would show up. Because back then we were having 2000 people come to some of my sister's weddings. And so they would provide security just to vet.

That's good.

Not to fully bad track, But I really appreciated you opening up about how tough things were after your third, because I know just from what we've been through, the pregnancy hormones are no joke. It's very hard for a woman to recover from giving birth. It's a really big thing. So I guess, what did you learn from that experience? How did you come out of that?

Because And you only experienced that with your third?

Yeah, it was only your third, right?

Well, my third was the worst. So I had it. I didn't know, really, with my first, what was happening. But I remember I was like, I'm in a fog. I just don't feel myself, and it was probably for six months. So it wasn't bad. Still doing normal life. We were still newly married. I was still in a honeymoon phase. And then we actually had a stillbirth after Gideon. And then after I delivered her, Annabelle, I had baby blues for probably six months, and it wasn't anything to the extreme that it was this time. And then Evy was a little bit not too bad. But this one, I think a lot of it was I had just not taken very good care of myself during pregnancy. And then, like I said, as far as taking vitamins, eating healthy, all of that. So I think my body was just depleted of all the vitamins and minerals that I needed, and it gave it to the baby. Because even during the pregnancy, I felt just exhausted all the time. And I had other two kids that I was chasing after. But then I think there was just that whole...

It compiled with all of the other things, and then postpartum, and this was the worst that I had ever experienced. So I had it a little bit with each kid, but nothing to this extreme.

You know what's crazy is before we had Gunner, you had a a really good place.

Right before, yeah.

Yeah. And so it was weird.

I think the nesting mode hit or something. Got my third wind right before I had him.

Yeah, but I mean, just It was physically and mentally, you were doing good. It's not like we went into it in a low point. Yeah, that's true. You were doing good. And so it was...

Well, and even because we went on a big road trip six weeks after having Gunner, we went out West for two weeks, and I was still feeling good. So it didn't hit. The postpartum stuff did not hit until probably three months or two and a half months postpartum. And then I just everything crumbled after that. And I would wish that on no mom, but I know a lot of moms go through it. And the thing that probably helped me the most was I was talking to a counselor once a week, just talking through a lot of family stuff, a lot of spiritual stuff. It was a Christian counselor, and just talking about what got me to this point. And some of it was hormones, but a lot of it was just other things. Like I said, spiritual things.

Yeah, it was It was a perfect storm.

Yeah. It was everything hitting all at once. And so I think the thing that got through, obviously, I think working through the things about what do I believe. And I think that was a lot of it was I didn't know why I believed what I believed growing up. I just believed it because that's what we grew up with. And so I came to this point of, I'm either going to believe this or I'm not. And that crossroads was a super scary place to come to. And It was scary because I've never done that. And like I said earlier, I just never was going to be the one that questioned that. And I'm married. I have three kids.

I kept thinking- You should have it all together.

Yeah, I should have it all together. I'm seasoned. I shouldn't be struggling with this. And so I had to work through just from rock bottom. Like, okay, where am I going to go from here? I just wanted to sulk in it for a while, but I knew that that was not healthy for our marriage, for my kids. And so that's where talking to a counselor, talking to people at church, talking to other moms that had similar situations was super helpful for me. And then just taking care of myself, because at this point, I was eating my kids' leftovers. I just didn't want to make a healthy meal for myself. I didn't really care to eat sometimes. And so he was taking care of me, making meals, making sure I was getting the calories in because I'm still nursing. And then at six months postpartum, I decided, okay, for my mental health, it's best if I stop. Because I've not been one that's like, Oh, I just love nursing, and it's so bonding for me. With Gideon, I stopped at three months. Evy, I stopped at six months. Guner, I think it was around seven, eight months.

But when I stopped nursing, and started working out was really, really healthy for me. And then just eating healthier, I saw a huge, drastic change. And just being really honestly, just being open and honest with people about how I was doing instead of people in church. How are you doing? Oh, we're doing great. Yeah, we're doing good. I'm sure they could see the devastation and the sadness in my eyes. But I finally got to a point where I was like, I'm not doing good. I'm struggling. I'm struggling like, do I even want to be here? And then I had to go even talk to my doctor and be like, Hey, this is where I'm at. It was super hard, but I also wouldn't change that season for anything because I am today. I've grown so much in the last really just six months. I've grown so much. So I think just taking care of myself. He was such a good support through it all and not making me feel bad for going through it, but helping me through it. And so I don't know. I think it was just I was really just fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting for months and months to feel better.

Thank you so much for opening about that. I know it's super hard to be vulnerable, especially... I feel like, specifically as moms, we want to nurture and be an example and have it all together. And it's also a point where it can be scary on such a big scale to be vulnerable as a mom, specifically because they get... You know. They have that expectation online and specifically for moms. And so I really admire you being so vulnerable like that, because I know as a mom, hearing you speak, there's so many things about your story that I'm like, that's an exact parallel. And I think so many There are moms out there feeling the exact same way, but I was just ashamed to admit that. Yeah.

And I wish I would have gone and gotten help sooner and just been more open and been more... Because I feel like it wouldn't have gotten to that point of, I don't even want to be here. I feel like if I would have just before I kept going down that road, I wish I would have just gone and talked to somebody, gone and talked to the counselor sooner. Just been open and real with people where I was and how I was doing, because I feel like it wouldn't gotten that bad.

When life is so hard like that, how did you bring yourself to go seek out a counselor? Was that something that you decided on your own? Was that something that Austin was like, Hey, I think you need to consider this? How did you make that decision?

At that point, I had actually been talking to a friend at church that had really hard postpartums as well. And I was telling her, Here are some of my symptoms. And she was like, I think you're dealing with some bad postpartum depression. And alongside that, other her family issues I think are really hard on you. She's like, I would really suggest, and this is somebody I love and trust. She's like, I suggest that you go get Christian counseling. I was really scared because I don't know why I had this thought of you lay on a couch and you talk to this counselor, and they ask you all these prompting questions. And then what if they... And I always have that fear in the back of my mind of what if they go and tell somebody? I'm a Ducker. What if this gets out?

But That stuff has happened. So there's always that fear in the back of it.

Where you open up to a friend and they end up going to tell the media.

And then they go and tell somebody. And so with it being a licensed counselor, they legally cannot go and talk to anybody. I felt more open. And I told him, I was like, Hey, what do you think about this? And he was like, Babe, anything to get you feeling better? He's like, Go and do it.

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Medicine, da, da.

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We went to your doctor. We're talking to her and she's like, Well, I can prescribe this. I can prescribe this or this. And I was like, Okay, tell me, what is the root cause? And then how are we going to... A medication can mask what's going on. It can trick your hormones, your chemicals, whatever. But What is going on here, and how can we fix the root problem?

Because I asked her, I said, Is there anything else? Because I was at the point where she was like, I think you need to get on some depression medication. And I was at the point of, Okay, I know where I'm at. I'm not to that point where I feel like it's his life or death situation, just honestly. I'm not at that point. I haven't made any plans, but I feel like I am at a point where I need to do something. And I said, Is there anything else I can do that you would recommend, like lifestyle changes or anything besides getting on meds? Is there any other steps that I could do to help my health and my mental health?

She was like, Well, the reason why there can be a chemical imbalance. So we had a lot of her labs done and stuff. And at that point, there wasn't anything that was like, Okay, this is way off, or this hormone, or whatever.

I did have a couple of vitamins that were really low. Yeah. That could cause postpartum depression or just depression symptoms.

Yeah. And so we had her on prescription doses of those vitamins or whatever the doctor prescribed. But ultimately, she's like, she needs to work through. She needs to talk through these issues and go way back and figure out about why she has this hurt. And this is probably more outside the baby blue stuff. This is just part of the perfect storm, just other stuff that had happened.

A lot of things from just growing up or whatever that I had never really dealt with. I had just built up, and it all just exploded at the same time.

Yeah. And so she was like, she needs to be talking through, working through her thoughts, Having someone ask her questions in a way that gets her to start thinking about. So I was all for the counseling. I don't want to mask a problem. If the problem gets to the situation where it's like, Dude, you're fixing to have a stroke. If you don't get on some medication, then, Yeah, let's get on some medication. So you don't just die right here, right now. But like, Okay, well, how can we change our eating habits? So you don't have a stroke in the future, or heart attack, or whatever? And so counseling, being around good influences, moms that had gone through stuff, I was really encouraging her to, You need to do that. Like, reach out or- I was really bad about just, Oh, I'm going to be fine.

I don't need to talk to anybody. I guess I felt like I had to keep up this persona I've got it all together. I grew up with a bunch of siblings, my mom was super organized growing up. I don't know how she did it, but she really was organized. And I just felt like I had to be there already. Even with my first kid, I have to have everything figured out. And I realized that is not reality. I don't have it all figured out. And just being around other moms that were just similar. Here's our lives. We're a mess, but we're loving it, and we're figuring it out as we go, and we're doing our best job at raising our kids.

Was that the scary thing, though? Because from the outside, people probably viewed you as having everything together. And so you feel all this pressure to uphold this standard. And then yet you're going through postpartum depression, and there's family drama. Your sister's released these books, which now you're questioning certain things. Were you almost at a point of, I don't even know what's I don't even know what I stand for, what I believe, because you were just in a really vulnerable, tough spot. Is that essentially- Yeah, I think so.

I think a lot of it. And I remember we had so many. I'm a late-night talker. He is not. But I would be at 10:00, 11:00 PM just talking about everything. And I remember one night, I was like, I just feel like I've been acting my whole life. And not that it was real. I had a great childhood, and I didn't feel like that in my childhood. But I feel like I subconsciously was always, I've got to keep this look, and I've always got to have a smile, and I've always got to whatever because I don't know.

I think that's just how- Part of it is self-preservation. You just get tired of attacks, right? Yeah. Yeah. Probably, too. So you put on... Because I came in to the filming world from, I was what, '22, '21, right? So I'd lived a very normal life, not on camera, whatever, and then coming into it, and then you start getting attacked, and your initial reaction is, I'm going to put my guard up with everybody because I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of the criticism and whatever. And so then I think it creates a bunch of unhealthy habits where you just don't have genuine deep relationships with people. And you're just always putting on. If you're in public, whatever, you're always trying to You're always trying to whatever because you just don't want people to snap that shot of you where you look like you're miserable. And so there's a fine line of being real with people and not airing out all your dirty laundry, but being genuine and having real relationships with people.

And Joy, what did you take away from that? What are things that you decided to keep from your childhood that you were taught and then things that you decided to distance yourself from?

I'm still working through it all. I I don't have it all figured out. But I think that there are, I guess for me personally, and I don't want to speak for all of my siblings, but I feel like for me, I took a lot of the things that my parents said is, Oh, these are our standards as this is what God says, and this is the Bible. And the Bible says that everybody has to wear skirts to be holy.

And then you look down on people that don't. Yeah. But her mother does not.

Yeah. My mom does not look down on people that are different than her at all.

Do you think people get that wrong about your parents? Do you think people associate those strict rules as them having some evil intent? But in your opinion, it's not that way at all?

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure they do. I don't know. I'm sure they do.

I think that's the thing with standards and convictions. If we have a standard of conviction, it might be because of something we experienced in our life and the Lord showed us. Then this is what we do in our house, and this is how Gideon, Evelyn, and Gunner have been brought up. But it may not be a standard that they need to keep because it's not something that they experienced or a struggle they had, so they needed to abstain from something because whatever, they were struggling. Willing. And so standards and convictions, I don't think necessarily are passed down a generation to generation. It's a one-on-one personal relationship with the Lord. Each person gets their own from him. It's not something that's necessarily carried down.

A lot of my parents' standards came from just things like that in their past. I know from my mom, personally, a lot of her modesty standards came because when she was younger, she had no modesty standards at all, and she wore whatever she wanted. And she felt like when she got saved, that's something that God convicted her of. And so she wanted to change that. I forgot the question. Were you asking what we were going to do different?

Honestly, I forget what my original question was, but I think everything-We confused everything. Everything you said, though, was super interesting. You've brought up your parents a lot and mentioned them a lot. I'm curious, how often do you guys spend time together? Because you guys do live fairly close, right?

Yeah. We see my parents fairly regularly, and they'll come to the birthday parties, or we'll go over to some of the cousin's birthday parties and see them there. So we do see them quite a bit.

How does that change your perspective now, being a parent yourself and knowing that you You are obviously like, no parent is perfect, right? Yeah. So how does that change your perspective of your parents now that you are going through the same thing they did for you when you were a kid?

I feel like every kid, probably once they have kids of their own, is like, okay. A lot of light bulbs start coming on. Oh, I see why my parents did this or we didn't do this. And I feel like I've hit a lot of those moments of like, that makes sense. Or I don't know how they did it, especially with my mom having 19 kids. Holy cow. She is incredibly patient. She is so organized, and she is so humble about it. She makes it look so easy. She's got it all together. I never heard my mom yell growing up at us. She just didn't. And I always thought, Oh, I'm going to be like that. And then I realized that's a choice that she has to make, and it is so hard. She chooses to not get upset, and she chooses to be patient.

A lot of self-restraint.

Yeah. It takes a lot of self-control. And I felt like I beat myself up for the longest time because I'm like, I only have one kid, and I've already yelled at him, and he's only nine months. Stop moving when I'm changing your diaper. All this stuff. You get frustrated. But she just handled everything with grace. And so I think even just simple things like that, I've really admired, and I'm blown away at how she did it.

Well, I was shocked talking to Ginger and Jill. They were just casually saying how your mom showed up for them when they were having babies. And I'm like, wait a second, hold up. You have 19 children of your own, and then you're pulling up at your grandbabies' birth and doing all this help for your daughter when you have 19 children. I don't know how many grandkids there are, but I'm sure there's a lot. I don't know if it's 100. I don't know what it is.

No, it's in the 30s now. But every baby that all of us have had, she'll come for at least two days. With my first two, it was like a week.

Yeah. If you want her, she's very respectful.

She's not in your face about, I will come over. But she's like, I'll come over. I'll make meals. She cleans the house. She makes the meals. She watched Gideon and Evy. She has her lolly bag that she brings along.

So it has Lego- That's what the grandkids call her.

She's lolly, too. That's her grandparent's name. So she has her Lolly bag, which has Legos, Playdough, kinetic sand that she carries everywhere she goes. And she has her Zollies, which is these healthy these suckers that don't have sugar in them. She spoils them. But I don't understand. I asked her, actually, it was probably two months ago. I was like, How many days a week do you babysit for the grandkids? She's like, Oh, she loves babysitting. She loves going to the kids' houses. She's like, Probably five days a week, just casually. I was like, Mama, what in the world? And she'll take Josie and Jordan. They love playing with the grandkids. So she'll take them with them, and they'll just spend an afternoon or just a couple of hours at different kids' houses.

Wow. Very high capacity woman. She can take a lot of load.

I was wondering more specifically, like Matt's question, but how your mom literally had 19... How many different pregnancies? Because there was a couple of twins there.

Well, there's two sets of twins. But she also had a stillbirth with her last. So it would have been, I think, coming out to 18 pregnancies. And then she had a miscarriage between I'm one of them, too.

Now that you've gone through all the process of pregnancy, birth, nursing, all that stuff, are you like, what in the- Yeah, constantly.

In your day to day life, I don't even think about... I don't I don't really even think about it because it was just my... But when I stop and I talk like this, I'm like, How in the world? I've had three kids. How did my mom have 19 kids? It's insane. This is so crazy. I'm just incredibly fertile. And that she didn't go crazy. She still is, I mean, so active.

She wants to be a grandma. It's not like she's like, I did that. I did my share of the baby stuff.

She's very selfless. She's always looking- She's almost too selfless. She's always looking for areas to serve others. I know when we've gone through hard times, one of our themes was when it just seemed like everything was coming apart. You'll never meet somebody who is down out that is a grateful person.

How can you- You would remind me of that, and I'll be like, I don't want to hear it right now.

But I was reminding- You're like, Just be grateful. Well, I had to remind myself of that. We have so So there's so many things to be grateful for. When you start adding up how blessed we are, other things fail in comparison. And so you can focus on all the negative, and that'll just weigh you down, and it doesn't do any good. But if you focus on everything that is good, it's hard to have a bad attitude. It really is. And so for me, that's what I have to do. When I'm like, life's horrible, blah, blah, blah, whatever, I just have to start thinking, all right, we've got our health. We've got three healthy kids. And then we've got a home over our head.

Our kids just the best, too, because life can feel like it sucks sometimes. And you just look at the joy from your two-year-old face.

Just seeing you get them out They're in the bed. They're like, That's all they needed was to see your face get them out of their crib.

They just get so stoked about literally nothing. They're just so happy and just joyful about, We get to go swing on the blue swing at the party.

I'm like, Blue M&M. And Blue M&M. That's why I just want to give them candy sometimes. I'm like, I just love to see your joy. One singular M&M gives you.

When we say that, our Gunner was my third. He has been the easiest baby, the happiest baby. And Austin says all the time. He's like, God knew that we needed Gunner. Our kids are all very happy.

He was the hardest one for you to have. But he brings so much joy to our family. He is just the happiest kid. It's amazing. He's just so sweet and just happy.

Is there ever a desire for you to also have 19 children? No.

Should I have to say that? No.

But how many? Do you guys have a number in mind?

I don't know. We've always said four, five, or six. It was 10 when I was twelve. You can go back and watch old shows, and they're like, Joy, how many kids do you have? I'm like, I want 10 kids.

When you come from 19, six or eight, it's not that big of a deal.

It's conservative. But we have talked about it. I feel like right now we're at a good spot. I feel like we can spend quality time with each of the kids. And I I don't want to... Our goal is not quantity, it's quality. Yeah, really it is. And I think we want to be able to effectively raise the kids that we do have. And so I think we're taking it one by one and maybe two by two eventually. Who knows if we have twins?

That'd be fun. You guys just announced that you're moving, which is so exciting. And I want to know the details. I just saw People magazine was like, They're moving. So I don't know where you guys are going, but I would love to hear more about that.

We don't know where we're going.

So the plan is to stay in Arkansas, but we're probably going to stay in Arkansas, more than likely. Well, it's funny because our five-year plan, since we've been married, is happening. Oh, wow. So it's crazy. Well, we've always said when Gideon was six, seven or eight, we wanted to eventually buy some land, have a farm of our own, all of that. And so the house that we were in currently, it's not that. And so we've been working towards for years on eventually buying a farm, having the cow. We have cows at his parents house, but we want to have them on our land. I don't know.

I grew up on a farm, 110, 12 acres, and we had cows, and we cut our own hay, and fixing fences. And I feel like it taught my sister and I a lot of responsibility and gave us a lot of good opportunities to just learn a lot of different stuff. And so I don't know. I want to give my kids that same upbringing, that same opportunity that I had. And so that's been our goal is to sell our house and get some land. And so we're still looking.

Well, we're so excited for you guys. It sounds like you have a lot of really fun things happening in your life. And thank you for being on the show. Thank you for flying all the way out to Arizona. And where can people find you guys to connect with you on social media?

Well, we're on YouTube every once in a while, maybe, but not right now. But you can follow us on Instagram. Austin's not really super active on his, but you can follow me on Instagram. And then we have Facebook as well.

Thanks for sharing your story today.

Thank you. Thank you guys for having us. I really appreciate it.

Okay. Well, thank you guys for watching. And as always, three. We're going to say, Peace out, dudes. Three, two, one. Peace out, dudes.

In this one, Eireann, we're going to have a course on the eight-hour sol and on the eight-hour. But we have paper, plastic, and beer, that's all going to happen in our musky eight-hour, in general, and we can't get it done. Then, remember to find a nomad and take it in my way as punk I.

E. On our.