Transcript of Why Men Suffer In Silence: How To Embrace Vulnerability To Create Healthy Love | Jason Wilson

Welcome back to the School of Greatness, my friend. Today, I'm excited for you to be not only inspired and motivated to take action in your life, but really to feel empowered, to step into the ultimate man that you've always wanted to be. For ladies listening, this may be more powerful for women to listen to because you're going to understand how to understand the men in your life, whether it be men in your family, men who are friends of yours, men in the careers that you're in, and the men you're in relationship with. I sit down with my friend Jason Wilson, who is a best-selling author, founder of the Cave of the Dullam Transformational Training Academy. He is an author of a new book called The Man the Moment Demands. We tap into something extremely powerful today, a conversation about what it truly means to be not a masculine man, but a comprehensive man. In his new book, he explores the 10 vital characteristics that men need to master to show up fully in their lives, and we discuss them throughout this episode. Through this raw and honest discussion, we dive deep into why so many men struggle with emotional expression, the difference between being masculine and being comprehensive, and how to authentically heal from past trauma.

Jason is going to share valuable stories from his own journey of transformation, including how his marriage evolved when he learned to express his full range of emotions, when his was almost to the point of failure and ending. Whether you're a man wanting to step more fully into your authentic self or a woman seeking to understand the men in your life, this episode offers game-changing insights on Modern Masculinity. If this is your first time here, do me a favor and click the Follow button over on Apple podcast or Spotify right now and leave a review on your biggest insight or takeaway from this episode so I can stay connected to you and hear what you're truly learning. I want to hear from the men out there listening, what is it that you learned? Is there some myth that you saw as being dismantled, that you grew up in a certain way thinking you needed to live a certain way? I thought I needed to live a certain way as a man. In some ways, those beliefs served me to a point, but in a lot of ways, they didn't serve me in relationships or in my business, in other areas.

If you're a woman, I want you to leave a review with a comment on your biggest and takeaway on the myths and the beliefs that you feel like you need to question and maybe are dismantled as well from this conversation. I believe you deserve to feel the most authentic, comprehensive version of yourself Sometimes modern society tries to hold us back and put us into stereotypes as men and women in modern relationships. In some ways, they serve us, and in other ways, they hold us back and cause pain and suffering. One of the biggest challenges in modern relationships today is I think the men and women in relationships are not being fully authentic, and they're not healing. When you enter into a relationship where you're living in past trauma, you bring that trauma and wounds into your relationship. It's hard to grow if someone's constantly living in the past. If you're not being authentic or saying what's on your heart and your mind because you're worried of upsetting your partner, or you're worried that they're not going to like you or they're going to react in some way and you people please them, then you're not being your most comprehensive and authentic individual in the relationship either.

One of the biggest problems that people have in relationships is around money conversations and money struggles. I've got a brand new book coming out. It's called Make Money Easy: Create Financial Freedom and Live a Richer Life. This is going to help you understand your money history, also your money personality style today. It's going to give you the tools to unlock freedom for abundance and have a more healed relationship to money in your life so you can have a healthier relationship with the man or the woman in your life around money so it doesn't cause you friction in your relationship as well. I want you to create peace in your life. I want you to feel free. I want you to have beautiful relationships with yourself and with others. This episode is going to unlock that for you. If you're enjoying it, make sure to share this with one friend. Text this. Just copy and paste the link where you're listening to this episode. Text it to one friend and ask them the biggest takeaway they learned from this episode as well, and have a open conversation with them. If you're in a relationship, send this to your partner and say, Hey, what do you think about this?

What do you think about Jason and Luis's insights? Again, this is about opening the conversation for more expansion and possibilities for growth and love. That's what you deserve, and that's what I want for you. So excited. So let's dive in this episode with the one and only Jason Wilson.

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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest today. It's my good friend Jason Wilson in the house.

Good to see you. Always good to be here, man.

Excited that you're back. You've got an amazing new book out called The Man, the Moment demands: How to Master the 10 Characteristics of a Comprehensive Man. And I wanted to start this. You're a best-selling author. You've an amazing school for young kids and also fathers on how to become better men and how to be leaders of their own lives and how to be leaders in their community and their families and step into the characteristics, the distinctions of leadership for authentic comprehensive men. You've been doing this for decades in Detroit, but also you have a documentary and an ESPN that is spread around the world and your social media following is massive as well. I'm curious, there seems to be a deficiency of comprehensive men in the world, and specifically in America, it seems to be that way. I don't know if there's a combination of social media that is hurting men or if it's gender roles being confusing from where it once was and now it's shifting. And so men don't know how to step into their masculinity in a comprehensive, authentic way in dynamic with their parents, with women, with with other men, with work, the idea of being successful and making money and having a material things and that drive from where they are to where they want to be, if that's confusing men.

But it seems to be a lot of confusion for men on who men are supposed to be in the world, how they can have a peaceful, harmonious life while also prosper and have a beautiful relationship and get married and build a family and all these different things. It just seems confusing for What is the root cause of the confusion for men to be who they're meant to be?

Well, I believe it starts when we're young. The misleading mantras is what I call them. What big boys don't cry or no pain, no gain. That's a universal principle. And we see even in sports that if a star player gets hurt, you don't push them through that pain. You take him out the game and give him time to heal. But unfortunately, we believe believe that a principle that pretty much came through weight lifting, developing the muscle, is something that we apply to all areas in our lives, and that's why I believe we don't really live full lives. And so to shake all of those mantras and then being admonished for having any other emotions besides anger or being bold or strong, if you showed an ounce of sensitivity growing up young, you would call it a punk or soft. And so those, I believe, programmed all of us to say, Okay, I don't like the way I feel when I hear that. I remember when my father admonished me for caring too much. So you know what? I'm going to shut that part of my heart off. And that's why so many of us can't meet the moment, especially in relationships, because we've allowed the world to define us as men.

And then even the one word or adjective masculinity is not a comprehensive definition of what it means to be a man. It's just attributes such as boldness, strength, and aggression. But what about nurture? Culturing, kindness, long suffering, patience? Those aren't feminine attributes. Those are human attributes. And so instead of masculinity or femininity, we practice humanity. Like, what do I need to be as a comprehensive human being. And that's where men struggle because even in movies, when the last time you really seen conflict resolved between two action heroes without fighting or killing each other. And then we wonder why road rage is at an all-time high, while there's a lack of patience with men, even in conflict or in business. I want to be the top dog or the classic alpha male, which has been proven a myth. There is not a dominant fight for a leader in a Wolfpack. The leader of the Wolfpack, leaders, that is, are the breeding pair, the male and female. Really? Oh, yes. I mean, I'm going to Google it and research. I wrote about it in the book because I believe that's one of the main things that prohibits men from being a comprehensive leader.

You don't have to be dogmatic to lead people the right way. And so there is no alpha male, even in the Wolfpack.

Should men strive to be more alpha?

What is it then? So then the beta is negative. So he's beta. So what does that mean? He's a nurture, he's compassionate, he's caring. Those aren't soft attributes. Some of the greatest warriors had both. That's why I said be a comprehensive man, be strong but sensitive, be courageous, but also compassionate. You have to have boom. You want to be multifaceted, not what I call a monofaceted. You're going to do one thing. And because of that, so many men are stuck in first gear in life. That first gear, that's the masculine gear to get you from stop to start and get you going. But what happens then? Do you stay in that gear if you're driving that car? No, you'll burn out your clutch. That's what so many men are on the edge of suicide today, because everything is by your strength, by your will. You're only identified by your accomplishments instead of who you are. That's why you can't rest. You can't find peace. And often say, peace has to be within you before it's around you. There's many, I believe, reasons for why we are where we are as men. The biggest fear of us is really doing the introspective work to find the healing that we desire and deserve.

Do you think women can fully embrace a fully comprehensive man?

Absolutely. My wife did it. Again, the struggle comes in with men is the process. The saying, Well, we have to unlear what we've been deceived to believe a man is, we have to give our wives or the women in our lives that same grace to unlear what they've been doing. And a lot of times, as men are breaking free from what I call emotional incarceration, if they face a woman or in a relationship where she, just say, impassibly dismisses a moment where he is transparent with how he's feeling, now he wants to go back into the ways where he was hardened. And I tell him, No, no, It's not time to retreat back to that cell, that mental jail cell, where you know there is no peace.

But what if his woman isn't accepting him for his comprehensive emotion, his range of emotions?

It's his blessing.

She's like, What are you That's not attractive to me. That's a turn off.

When I get weak around me. She just confirmed that she's not the right one for you. So don't be with that woman. Yeah. So a lot of men, we're changing for the wrong reasons. When I made the journey into comprehensive manhood, I had to change for myself. One moment, I never forget, my wife and I, we were in the car, we were arguing. This was when I was learning how to become a verbal processor, how to express what I'm feeling without yelling or hitting things.

So you used to be what, a suppresser or angry?

Passive-aggressive.

Passive-aggressive or just- It would just explode.

I would come off calm, and next thing, boom, I would lose it. Really? Yeah. Oh, real quick. So she wasn't used to any man in her life being able to articulate what he's thinking or what he's feeling with composure.

With calm. Yeah, composure.

When I was able to do that- She didn't understand the language of composure from a man. Because typically, what? We have to be what? Only masculine. Exuiting attributes of strength, boldness, and aggression. So I chose to be comprehensive that moment in the car. She gets out the car, looks at me and says, You're the most emotional man I ever met, and boom, slams the car door and walks into the grocery store. Really? Yeah, seriously. So I'm sitting in the car.

That doesn't feel good.

No. To be shamed for your emotions. Yeah. It was very devastating. I got very angry, which I call is the surface emotion for men. It's the emotion we can go to the fastest without going on digging deeper to what we're really feeling. What were you really feeling? I was hurt. Yeah. Okay, here it is. I'm trying to become a better man. I knew I was, as a father, just discipline-only driven. I wasn't there emotionally for my daughter during the year, she needed a lover more so than a disciplinarian, and she She didn't feel that she was the apple of my eye, yet the worm and the apple. And so here it is as a man, I'm doing this hard work. I'm sitting in this car. Trying to evolve. Yeah, and I'm saying, You know what? I'm going to go back to being this demonstrative, quick-tempered-Pesant aggressive husband. Yeah, husband. And in that moment, I realized, Wait a minute. I'm doing this for me, not you. As a bi I'd like you a benefit and the children will benefit, but I need to do it for me because as soon as you don't appreciate my effort, I'm going to digress back into that mental say, That was a pivotal moment in my journey, and I stayed on the course until I finished it.

And of course, I'm still evolving.

Why did you stay on it and not return to the single-minded man that you once were without the range of expression?

Like Life wasn't worth living, man, just to be real with you. I compare it to the box of eight crayons you'll see, and then you have the box of 64. As men, we tend to gravitate towards the box of eight. And so I To hear those crayons to emotions. And out of the eight, we may use four of them. But women have access to 64, and we do, too. But their entire life, they've been affirmed and expressing those emotions. So then when it comes to communication between man and woman, she is requesting violet, but all you have is purple. So you can't even meet the moment there. And also, instead of even in relationships with men. If a man offends me, I don't just go to anger. I go to the real emotion of, My brother, that offended me. Why don't you trust me in this business deal? Now the conversation now is here. No one has to have their guard up. Guards are dropped. Now we can communicate as human beings. I got tired of having to be stuck in masculine mode all day, every day, having to live life in a performance-based mentality.

There's no rest there. A man can even take a nap when you live that way. So it was an easy decision to make. Was a journey a challenge at times? Absolutely. But well worth it.

How old are you at this moment?

54.

No, at the car?

At the car? What age range was this? I would say 46, maybe. Wow. Yeah.

So not that longer, actually.

No.

Before 46, would you say you were more of a one-sided, lesser range of emotions type of man?

Absolutely, definitely. I call that a masculine male.

You were a masculine male?

That's all I was. Everything was centered around being masculine, being strong, bold.

What's limited with only being a masculine male?

Well, I use my mother caring for her as an example when she developed dementia. I couldn't fully meet that moment in her life by only being a protector and provider. Those two roles I had mastered. Whenever the pharmaceutical companies We were trying to fleece her out of more money, I was able to protect her. When her Social Security check couldn't meet the difference that we owe the doctors and for the prescription, I was able to provide. But what happens when she asked me a question 10 times and I have to answer it the 11th time without her feeling any frustration? What happens when she's crying and she's confused and I have to meet that moment with compassion and love? What happens when her fingernails need fouling or clipped, and I have to meet that moment? Only being a protector and a provider was too limiting for me. I couldn't be all that she needed. And so when that time happened in her life, I chose to meet that moment instead of running from it. And often men say, I want to be a comprehensive man. What do I need to do? I tell them always to run to the moments when you fear feeling the emotions that make you feel weak.

And so that's what transformed me. And I said, This is living. This is power. That's how I'm able to reach so many boys and men. That's why I'm contacted by even UFC fighters. These men beat pretty much everyone that you can think of in the average setting that's not trained in MMA. But yet they're starting to see like, wait a minute, I can't live from this rage that I feel, this childhood trauma that keeps time traveling to the present and ruins my life. So here it is, these men, the greatest warriors, are they weak now because they want to be comprehensive, because they want to be human, authentically human? No. They're fighting now for their right to experience more of life than just providing and protecting. Wow.

So around 46, you made a decision that just being a protector and a provider was not all you wanted to do anymore.

I saw it destroying my marriage. Really? I lacked patience. I didn't even understand emotions as far as what a woman is feeling. My brothers were drug dealers, and I grew up in an area where I'm in the middle of gangs from each mile road in Detroit. So I didn't know how to express or really feel emotions outside of being tough and strong or appearing to be what we would call a thug, which I've made an acronym for, which is a traumatized human unable to grieve. I said, This isn't living. And when me and Nicole, we were arguing our last time before we decided to get a separation in 2015. Look at the time span there. I said, I need to really dig deep into what's causing me to be this man. What's causing me not to embrace all of the human attributes that I've been given by the Most High? And it was my childhood trauma. It was my father wound. It was the losses that I've experienced that had shaped my mind into believing another loss is coming. You weren't even good enough for your father to affirm you. But upon deeper reflection, I realized that I didn't have a bad father.

I just had a father who had been wounded and didn't go through his process. He loved me. But again, he came from an era where the masculine male was the gold standard. And so until I saw the truth there, before he died, we were able to reconcile, which was beautiful. And he was called by God to be a pastor, but ran from it because he didn't want to be perceived as a pimp because in his era, the pimp transitioned into being a pastor. Really? Yeah. And he told me the story. I couldn't believe it. He told me, You're tax exempt still.

So there was just a high They're a pimp, but they were getting more out of it.

Still drove a nice car. All you had to do was to pander to the women's emotions. Oh, my gosh. My father was a barber, very popular in Detroit, so he cut a lot of the pimp's hair back then. Wow. A lot of them would tell him, Big O, Man, nothing like being a pastor. It's almost just like being a pimp. But he allowed that to stop his calling. He could have changed it. But because he was just a masculine male, my father was a provider. He would work 12, 13 hour days, come home, wore out. At the end of his life, he couldn't walk. He had Parkinson's disease. My mother, worried to death, he worked to death. Wow. Those are two extremes that I learned from. And I said, I'm not going to be either. I learned from my dad to make sure I take rest in between work. If you don't take a break, I often say you eventually break. And with my mom, the brain wasn't meant to hold trauma she experienced. My grandfather was lynched. Her first marriage was abusive. Then my brother gets murdered. So all of this she couldn't let go.

And what was amazing, brother, she didn't find peace, my mom, until she started to forget. Forget? Yeah, because of dementia, she couldn't remember all of the trauma.

So she had peace because she wasn't holding on to the memory. Yes. If you don't have the memory, if you let go the memory, now you have the peace. You're like an empty vessel that can experience joy and love and harmony again.

That's why the scriptures say, Cash your cares upon God. We tend to hold them and grasp and hold and control it. That's what wears us down, especially as men. We can't rest, we can't let go of the appointments of the day. We're still trying to work when we should be resting. That's what tomorrow is for. Table those things, find rest, and then get up and hit it hard again. But again, if your whole identity is in working and performing, you cannot We can't sleep. I guess that's one of the greatest blessings of me knowing so many influential individuals. I get to see the side that people don't see. Yeah, of course. And I said, Well, money isn't the answer. Being a celebrity isn't the answer. Being a professional athlete or fighter isn't the answer. But being authentic in who you are is the answer. For me, when I found my purpose in Christ, when I found my purpose in following the most high, that really solidified me, I would say, in being a comprehensive man. Because, again, you could be multifaceted, but without a purpose, you're just a busy person.

Do you know any men today, either unknown or successful, influential men who have zero relationship with God, that live a harmonious, peaceful, and successful life?

No. When I get to meet them behind the closed doors- You see the pain. I see the pain, the facade comes off. They willingly take it off because they're tired of wearing it. The Superman cape that has been strangling them. Take it off. No. The Millionaires, No. Because the money, see, the thing about being a millionaire, what I've learned, you can do everything. Man, if I could go to Spain, this would give me a break. You do it, now you still don't find peace.

You still have to live with you in Spain.

The average guy can always have that dream or that vision. Like, One day when I can do this or get this house or get this firm, that's when everything will be together. The millionaire has done everything and still is unhappy. Still doesn't have peace.

It's almost worse in a sense, because I did everything I thought was going to give me peace. It didn't. Now what?

There you go.

Now something is really wrong with me.

Exactly. I say, no matter where you go, there you will be. You can't escape yourself. I never was one to, I guess, adhere to escapism. I always tried to find my peace in where I met.

Did you have a lot of escapism, though, before the the last 10 years?

Of course. As men, we're conditioned that way. We work hard, become a millionaire, travel, buy your way, buy your peace, get the right people around you. Even with the right people around you, if you hadn't did the work inside died, you won't have it. And so for me, it took for me to surrender my life to Yeshua or Jesus to really find that peace, to purge all of this pain that was in my heart. Because I didn't grow up in a church. I didn't want to walk this path.

You didn't grow up in a church at all?

What I mean by grow up, meaning I was a part of the culture, meaning my mother made me go. But as soon as I got to the age where she could trust me at home alone, I stopped going. But when I truly accepted him in my life, the process still was a journey. It's not like us. No, it's not magic, like instant it's gone. It comes with work. It is written that we should consider When we're testing trials, it's joy. We should be joyful when that happen because it develops our faith and perseverance. When there's a trial. Yes. And then, of course, we're going to lose loved ones, but we don't grieve like the world. Those are the type of things that were instilled in me through this transformation I had because I know I get to see my mother and father again. My hope is different from those that are in this world. And then my identity is not what I do, it's in him. So whatever stops. As we talked earlier, the transition is always difficult. But because my identity isn't in it, I can transition. But a lot of guys can't transition at all.

I share with you before here what he's calling me to do. May take some time, right? As we talk, you said four years, right?

I have to tell him to do this for four years. Yeah.

But our time compared to his time is... Yeah, it's true. But when you're stuck and your Identity is in what you do like athletes, when you retire, you don't know what you're going to do with yourself.

What should a man put their identity in? If it's not their work, their success, their money, their relationship, who's in their circle, who they know, what should they put their identity in to have more harmony?

For me, first, the foundation, of course, is the most high in Christ for me. What does that look like? My identity. Oh, well. What does that mean? In him meaning I embody all who he is. So I manifest his attributes. To me, in my book, at the end, I share he was the ultimate comprehensive man. He was the fighter. He was the provider. He was the leader. He was the lover. He was the nurtureer. He was the gentleman. He was the father, as incarnate as God here is one. He was the Son. And so those attributes of competence of man, I exude because of who he is in me. So when I say he is in me and he's the reason why I exist and why I move, I exude his attributes. And that's what I mean by my identity being wrapped up in him. Second, I would say my family, but even that can be shaken. If I was to commit adultery on my wife, she may leave. I don't know. If I was physically abusive to her, my children's love would change. So all of my hope lies in him. That's the only constant that I have.

Where do you feel like you struggled the most as a man?

I would say Reminds me of Moses. We were talking about him earlier. When the most I called him to go to to Pharaoh to free his people, Moses complained about not speaking with the eloquent tongue, making a lot of excuses. And then God told him to have his brother speak for him, which I believe was a big mistake because Moses didn't work through all of his insecurities. And at the end, those insecurities caused him to hit the rocks, and he couldn't enter the promised land. So I share that to say because I know it's a blessing knowing that everything you do is wrapped up in him. At the same time, finding your confidence solely in him can be a challenge at times. A lot of things that he has me doing, I know it's not me. I know the men that stop me at the airport or when I go speed, come up to me here. I mean, real men crying, breaking down. That's not me. I'm just a man. And so to truly just say, Hey, I'm going to trust you regardless, and just move. Sometimes that can be a challenge when you're walking towards the Red Sea and it hasn't been parted yet.

But he's telling you to go that way. And didn't tell you he wasn't going to split it yet. Just go that way. That can be challenging at times. And that's why it's important to not have your identity wrapped up in things, money, your accomplishments, not even your family, as much as I love mine, I know love on the human plane is conditional. It's based on that we can do.

If I do this, I will receive. If I don't do it, it's not going to be there.

It's just human nature. The closest you'll get to unconditional love is from a good mother on this Earth. Or a dog. Or a dog. That's what I'm saying. Dog. When you realize that, you're like, Hey. For me, I studied many religions, and I chose that path, and I have no regrets. If I lose everything and still have him, I still have everything.

My gosh. Which of the 10 characteristics of a comprehensive man are you the most limited still? Do you feel is still a Something that has more effort and harder to actually embrace and comprehend?

I would say the gentleman in regards to chivalry. I had to study that because today, you say chivalry is dead, right? It's almost like chivalry is perceived as pandering to women. But when I studied it, it was a cold of honor amongst medieval knights. Why did we relinquish that? So for me, growing up, again, the misleading mantras was the saying bros before H-O-E-S, okay? So I was programmed never to really trust a woman. Don't be affectionate with a woman in public you'll be looked at as being weak. To this day, I have to fight to hold my wife's hand in public. Really? Yeah, man. And then just be in the fight to force yourself to do it? It's an internal struggle. My father, I remember I told him I was getting married. He told me, Why? Why would you do that? All the men in my life never were comprehensive men.

They just said they have multiple women.

Then outside of being a fighter and provider, the gentleman, what is that? We were smooth, but it was always what we call it a game to get something. Yeah. So we had to have game. So I didn't like playing games. That's why the commitment level wasn't there. Again, just really living freely from that romantic side that's in me. And that's a process I'm going through now, resolving the hurt, experience the relationships. And that's one of the men's biggest struggles with getting married is because when you marry someone, She's not going to just see Batman, she's going to see Bruce Wayne now. Can you deal with that? Are you okay with her seeing that you're depressed some mornings? That, yeah, you two are anxious at times. Oh, yeah, you two get scared at times. That's the challenging part for men. For me, it's just moving past the lives that I've been, I guess, programmed to believe by the men in my family, that being romantic publicly was a sign of weakness. That's one of the attributes that I struggle with, exuding.

Why do you think it's so hard for men to commit in an intimate relationship?

Again, it's the fear of, I used to say vulnerable, being vulnerable. But I believe that's the wrong word because that means you're open to harm or being killed. If a government was to come in here now, the news report would say he killed the vulnerable citizens. What we're trying to encourage men to do is be emotionally open or transparent. And so for me to be transparent and open was actually a gateway to my freedom, man. And my wife would tell you to this day, to have a man who she can see that is scared but can move through that fear, or a man who says, Hey, I don't know about this decision, but I'm going to trust God that this is the right way to go. I'm going to trust the data we have that this is the right decision financially, and we're going to move. For her to see that, Whoa, okay, Hey, he doesn't know it all, but yet he still walks confidently in that decision. He still has a little fear, but he doesn't succumb to it. Now you can be more authentic. That's really what men want. They're dying to just be treated as humans.

Can I just share my fear without you condemning me as being weak?

With being accepted.

I'm just a human being, man.

Do you think men fear commitment more because they lack the ability to be emotionally transparent and to be received for their range of emotions, or are men afraid to commit to one woman because they don't want to just only be with one woman for the rest of their life?

From the men that I've worked with, the greatest fear is their inadequacy, the imposter syndrome, that I'm really not all she thinks I am. Real she's going to see this one side. What happened during COVID? The divorce rates went through the roof because you couldn't be at work for eight hours. There was no time apart. For me, I was sad when COVID was over because I enjoy being with my wife and my son all day, every day. I didn't have to leave them because by that time, I had become a comprehensive man.

You wanted to express It was nothing to hide.

But if you're with the suits, the bra, the bra, all this other stuff, that's your aura all day. No one ever sees a sign of weakness. There is You know, you're never concerned. You're stoic 24/7. Then you get married and now she can see. Now she, Oh, wait, why are you depressed? I thought we're living our best life. I thought nothing bothers you. What happened? So no one wants to be a fraud. But how can you be a fraud when you're authentic? There's nothing to hide anymore.

Do you think most men are authentic before they get married?

I don't think most of us are authentic at all right now. Because especially in the era of social media, everything is performance, highlight reels. They don't see the other side of what goes on inside of a man's mind, his heart, his fears. We're doing a better job now, especially thankful to a man like you who are showing the real side of what men are going through. But I don't think we're there yet. I know with more conversations like this, we're getting there. But no, we're not living authentic. I mean, even look at the videos, the movies, and Hollywood. Even in hip hop, everything is a façade.

What's your thoughts on hip hop and hip hop culture and music? Is it helping men and women in any positive way, or is it only a lower level frequency that is really keeping men and women subject to hurt, harm, and sadness?

Well, you couldn't just say hip hop. You could say mass media, and not all of hip hop, but definitely mass media is playing a major role in how people see themselves in the mirror, definitely, especially social media. Again, I've had couples where wives had to just get off social media because it would be depressed looking at other couples, and they have no idea that that couple is struggling. I couldn't identify, wouldn't say it's totally hip hop, but you can say the same for rock pop. They're drug abuse in those two genres alone. But it's not all rock. It's not all pop, it's not all hip hop. But yeah, no, definitely. I wouldn't say that. But mass media has played a major role, especially in the way I It's an intelligent thing.

You've got an amazing exercise in your book, The Man, the Moment, Demands, about looking in the mirror, about spending more time in the mirror. Actually, when I saw that, I was like, huh, wouldn't that reinforce people's egos to stare at themselves and say, Oh, look at me. I so good because I think a lot of people actually spend too much time in the mirror checking themselves out or selfie, looking at themselves, making sure they look good or have the right makeup on for women, whatever it might be. I actually think they're too self-absorbed looking. But you have an exercise about looking in the mirror for what reason?

To reflect on what you've read in the book. We're unpacking a lot that as men, we've been conditioned to suppress. Now, at the end of the chapter, I want you to start looking at yourself the wounds, the things about yourself you didn't like. And then we start affirming ourselves with the statements that I write in the book. And so a lot of times, men, I was talking with a friend of mine, actually in Detroit, when he went through the first chapter, he was like, This is hard for me. I didn't realize it was so hard for me to look in the mirror because a lot of us as men, we really don't love ourselves.

Look in your eyes.

Not how you look, the suit that he wears. I actually share that in the first chapter. That's not what we're looking at. Look intently in your eyes 60 seconds and then say these statements. During that process for a man to stay there for one, he becomes emotional. Even when I have fathers and sons when they're having a conflict in their relationship, have them sit in front of each other and without saying a word, communicate through their eyes only. Within a matter of seconds, the father starts crying. Because now he can convey with his heart what his words won't allow him to say.

Most men can ever look themselves in the eyes to another man for more than a few seconds without shimming around, or it's hard for a man. One of the reasons why I chose to do this show in this style is to be completely across from someone. Not that it's bad or wrong if someone's not across them, but a lot of people sit catty-corner. That's true. It's like you sit next to each other, facing each other in a TV set, which again, nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't force you to reflect and see how you're showing up. In there, I could look here. You're sitting here, but you're over there. Got you. So I can just wander off and talk and connect to the audience, which I get, it's a different setting, it's a different context. But you can hide a little bit. You know what I mean? Yeah, nothing wrong with it. But I believe that if you truly want to understand someone, you've got to face them. I agree. You got to face, Oh, does this make me feel uncomfortable? What is it about them that's making me feel uncomfortable? Why am I struggling to resonate with this person?

Why am I struggling to look at this person in the eyes and really feel them in this specific way. If I want to be more comprehensive, I can't just listen to their words. I have to listen to what they're not saying. If I'm looking off here and just answering questions or talking, my energy isn't connected to your heart. It's out this way, and my head is looking at you, but not my heart facing and embodying all of you. I think energy doesn't lie. But if you're out here, you can hide a little bit. It doesn't mean you can't have a great conversation.

Absolutely, yes.

It doesn't mean it's bad. It's just I wanted to force myself to be like, Okay, let me embrace all of this. If I'm nervous, if I'm excited, whatever, let me feel it and then lean into it.

That's really good, man. When I work with the young boys in the cave of Adolham, I always say, Look at me here. I'm here. I'm talking because they don't want to break contact. Of course. I know. Stair here. Look at me so you can not only hear my words, but see the sincerity in my eyes. That I love you. It's just a little tough right now, but we're going to work through this. It breaks them down, man. And even especially with men, Nicole and I, my wife, we're laying in bed and she'll say, Hey, I need to connect with you. And what that means is that we stare into each other's eyes, at least for three minutes.

Is it harder for you to stare into a man's eyes or your wife's eyes?

That's a really good question. I'll be transparent with you. With men, it's not an issue because I've been doing it for 20 years working with boys and men. Well, my wife, she'll often say, Why are you looking off cute? Look at me in my eyes. Because I have the exercise in there, and I tell men, You may need to break eye contact for a moment because it can get intense. But reset back. And the reason it is is because just some unresolved hurt years ago. Same thing with her. We're processing and still growing. And then to move past that and say, No, I'm right here. Or I know I may tear up because of how much I love her, so I break off. I don't want to dive deep right now. To give her all of my heart, that's deep for me. I'm locking I'm walking into you like this and I'm staying there. And now because you were smiling at first, then eventually the smile goes and you're really into deep communication. Then now the heart's open.

It's almost like your wife does to you and you do to young men.

Exactly. That's funny. She'll say, Why are you? She'll kiss me. Now, this is funny. She'll say, Give me a hug. She'll go to kiss me. This is what I do, seriously, sometimes. So she's right here, I do this. Look off. And she says, Why do you do that? And I'm like, I don't know. It's so easy. It's still uncomfortable. I'm still unlearnted what I've been living from for so many years. And that's what I tell men Stop thinking it's a master level in manhood. It's not. You have to keep evolving. And so I've gotten better.

It's also interesting, probably, if she stopped asking you, Why do you do that? Or, Why don't you look at me more? I bet if she stopped of pressuring you in that way, you might feel more comfortable to do it also at some point.

Or I may not do it.

But if she stopped doing it, you might say, Oh, she accepts me for who I am. That's possible. Let me lean into it now. I feel more accepted.

I'm going to tell her to watch me. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Then maybe in six months, if you're not new, she can reflect and bring it back. But almost when Martha... I think Martha is really smart in how she approaches me in certain things because I don't know. Nothing comes off the top of my mind, but I'm sure I do stuff like that in my life with her. I'm not this perfect man with her. Absolutely. She does a really great job. I don't know how she learned this, but I'm like, Gosh, she's got a whole other level of psychology inside of her because she'll know that maybe I'm resistant to something energetically or she's not the intuition around it. She'll just accept me. Maybe she'll mention a few times, I'm like, I don't like that, or whatever it is. Then she'll stop pressuring or pushing. She'll let it go and just love and accept me for who I am, all my inefficiencies, inefficiencies, whatever it is. And I'm like, I appreciate that she's not doing this to me so that I want to give it to her. I'm more open to wanting to try whatever that thing is. Not that it's coming to mind.

It's interesting because Nicole is very understanding. We wouldn't have been married 26 years if she hadn't accepted some my ways. Of course. I'm an introvert who extroverts well. Okay, that's me. Wholeheartedly. Like, concerts, any of that, I'd rather be doing nothing at home.

Yeah, just relax.

She does a great job at that. It's me just... Again, what you asked about the attribute of the competence of men or the characteristic that I have the most trouble exuiting is that gentleman, a characteristic, and really just allowing that part of my heart to open more to her. That's something else I will have victory over. That's great. Definitely. I love being transparent because I don't want men to think like, when he's arrived. No, my brother, it's constant evolving, constant- It's a journey. My wife and I call marriage a beautiful struggle because it is. And as far as the weight training or any type of conditioning to get your body where you wanted it to go. It's the same way with your mind as well and your heart. Do the hard work. It's hard work, but it's worth it. I have a beautiful relationship with my wife, where now arguments are, I don't want to say a thing of the past because anything could happen in the moment, but where we hold on to it longer than the day, those days are over.

Did you used to argue a lot in the beginning of your marriage?

Oh, my God. Her father was like, Look, why don't you two just break up? That was like, Please break up. Like, fighting all the time. Always arguing. Why do When you draw a line, she will step over it and vice versa. That was our relationship.

When you see married couples fighting, yelling, arguing, holding on to these arguments for long periods of times, what are they saying to you? What is it that they're doing or not doing, or they need to step into in order to evolve? And when people say, Well, every marriage has arguments, and all healthy marriages fight. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, that's not true because we used to fight and argue a lot, and now we don't. What helps us in communication, I'll use our relationship for an example, is if there's some discord or just some dissension between Nicole and I, and just say an argument ensues, just our voices raise. I don't look at Nicole, the woman who was in front of me. I look at the young girl because I know my wife. I know the years when she didn't feel good enough and the wounds and the fear of losing everything. I look at that little girl. So oftentimes I tell my men's wives as well, that's not the 50-year-old man that's talking. That's the eight-year-old when his father wasn't there. That's the eight-year-old when his mother was overprotective. And so that's what helps me lock my heart into Nicole in those moments. I said, Oh, I know why she's responding this way. She feels that she's about to lose something, making it. Or if I could, for so long, brother and I were in marriage early on, I was very critical call of Nicole. You had a tone or an energy. No, just everything negative.

Nothing she could do right. Really? I'm serious to you, man. I had to go a period in our marriage without saying anything. I'm just going to eat this one. I saw what I was doing to my wife. It was so bad. In one of our psychotherapy sessions with our marriage counselor, I allowed her the freedom to write down everything that I did to her over the years on index cards. Man, it probably never ended. Six hours. How? Two days.

Oh, my gosh. Probably hundreds of index.

For her to just say, When you said this, this is what it did to me. Why did you say it? Oh, man, that's a lot of hurt. But it was needed. I didn't mean this. This is why I said it. And this is what happened. This is where it came from. Next index card, next index card. Oh, my gosh. So the therapist said, Well, do you want to turn Jason? The pride in me was like, Yeah, I want to make sure she know it's not just her. You know what I mean? You done things. You did this to me. And the therapist said, I could have my stack as well. I chose not to do that.

Is that suppressing your feelings, though?

No, because I already expressed system, meaning I did the internal work. I let her know, and I let my therapist know. My prayer life for God, everything, I was able to release it, but she couldn't let those things go. So that was more important to me. Anything that I feel that I'm holding on to, I make sure, first and foremost, that I speak it at the right moment. That's what's crucial. Timing is everything far as in that relationship. Yeah. No, I couldn't. Repressing it, My mother made me a very unstable man mentally. But at that moment in our marriage, my wife needed the opportunity to gracefully release the things that she had been hoarding in her heart that was affecting her love for me. And it set her free.

Oh, it set her a sense of freedom by releasing it.

Absolutely. For me to finally say, Well, I said this. First and foremost, I was immature. I should have never first owned it. This was wrong. It was immature. Secondly, this is what I was trying to say. And I'm sorry. Oh, that's the first thing. You have to acknowledge, First, I heard you, then I'm sorry, and this is what I meant, or there is no justification. I was wrong, and I'm and do you forgive me?

She may not forgive you right away. She may take time eventually.

That's true, in some cases, but Nicole, when it was conveyed- Yeah, of course. She saw, you know what I mean? Yeah, of course.

One of the activities in your book, which I think is really powerful, that we talked about already, is called Mirror Time. I just want to walk people through the exercise. I think it's really cool. Take out your mirror or stand in front of your mirror and silently gaze into the eyes of the man reflected in it. Which, again, I think just doing that for 10 seconds, most men are unable to do to really look in their own eyes.

Especially after reading that chapter of unpacking the things that they've been holding on. Absolutely.

But I think men struggle looking themselves in the eyes without looking at their ego, without looking at how they look or are shaved or my hair look good. Nothing wrong with putting yourself together, but the exercise of staring into your soul.

Well, what about the men who don't like who they see in the mirror? The men who the world say aren't attractive. Yeah.

Then they don't want to see themselves. Exactly. Or when they look, they see shame. There you go. They see not enoughness, all these things. That's good. Look yourself silently in the exercise of the mirror of the man reflected in it. Don't look away for 60 seconds. That alone is an amazing exercise. But what you have people go through is the next thing is big. Then affirm that the man with the following... Then I'm going to affirm that man with the following statements. One, I am not an alpha male. I am a comprehensive man. I will practice chivalry in the lives of the women I love and encounter. I am worth the effort it takes to look good. I am smart and capable enough to master the rules needed to impressively and successively participate in any social function. I think people doing that? What if they don't believe their worth? They're worthy, they're smart enough, they're capable enough. What if they don't believe they're a comprehensive man because they haven't proven it to themselves up to that moment.

It's a process again. So I'm just taking you through the journey of the characteristics. That's why I close with, now it's time for you to take the steps to go on, go beyond this point. And so even in that one chapter, even about in social settings because I also teach dining etiquette in that chapter, The Gentleman, because so many men do not know how to dine in public settings and are intimidated by that. And so I teach men, this is a short course, what I teach the Boys in the Cave of Adelim, how to dine at a table, how to enter and exit a table. And so those things are very crucial, especially if you're dating someone or a job interview, trying to make a great impression for an investor. I've had kids who are in college now who've gotten scholarships off of the way they can hold their fork and knife. Why? Seriously. I've gotten text messages, Mr. Wilson, you were right. I got a $2,000 scholarship or $15,000 scholarship because of the way I conducted myself at the table. So how many men, like myself, I created that dining etiquette training because I was embarrassed by my father.

We went out to eat one day. I had no idea. I was a little eighth grader. I I was in eighth grade. I love my favorite restaurant at the time was Red Lobster. So I was eager to eat shrimp, and I'm eating with my hands. I didn't have the napkin in my lap. My father didn't teach me. So when he dropped me off at home because my parents were divorced, I thought everything was cool. But maybe 10 minutes later, I hear my mother arguing with him. I ask her what happened. She said, he was mad at me for not teaching you how to dine at a restaurant. And that scarred me because he didn't tell me that. And so I vowed. I said, You know what? I'm going to make sure that no boy has to go through what I went through. And then come to find out when I talked to their fathers about it because they watched the process as well. I said, Man, I didn't know that. That's why I'm nervous when I'm in a business setting because I don't know how to dine at a fine dining restaurant. Again, I often say inside of every man, there's a broken boy who needs to be healed.

And so that's one thing I do through working with young boys, doing that process, Okay, good. I'm able to stop intergenerational trauma through you, but what about the dad? I help him heal the broken boy inside, so now I know this healing can continue in their family. Interesting. Yeah.

You talk about a few things in this book, Protecting and providing is part of the comprehensive man, correct? Yes, sir. Part of the ingredients of becoming a comprehensive man. What it sounds like from the generation you came from, that's all men knew what to do, was project and provide and nothing else, right? It was what they leaned on, right? I'm a protector, I'm a provider.

Even now still to me. Really?

I feel like the younger generation of men, the teens and young 20s, has lost the... Of men.

Okay, yes.

The teens and young 20s has lost the art of providing and protection. I agree, and maybe have swung more into the other elements of the comprehensive men.

Which ones? I don't know. I don't think so. I think the providing and protecting definitely has- For men? For men, definitely. But the other attributes they haven't touched yet because after COVID, a lot of young men are lazy, are stuck in the basement, are apathetic towards life. No outlook It looked like so many of us complain about young boys or young men not being men, but how many of us are actually teaching them how to be one. You are. Yeah, but we need to be more of men. More of these young boys feel condemned more than, I gets encouraged to change. That's why they're stuck in the basement. That's why you don't see the work ethic you used to.

If a man does not know how to protect and provide, what type of woman will he attract?

You have to have those attributes. I mean, like I said, that's the first gear in manhood, protecting and providing. Even the scripture says, A man who doesn't provide for his own is worse than an unbeliever. Really? Yeah. So you have to provide for your family. You want to be a fighter. You want to be assertive, not necessarily being aggressive. You want to have calculated actions in everything. The fighter in that chapter, I talk about the good side and the bad side. It A lot of men, we lose control, lose our freedom, lose our lives. But the fighter in this book, what I'm teaching you is how to be strategic in every move, how to consider this decision and then look at the outcome of that decision before you make that move. For instance, the Oscars, I talk about Brother Will Smith and Chris Rock, the situation that happened there. Once he stood up, he lost it. But in that moment, while he's in that seat, if he could have processed in real-time, like, I want to wreck my man right now because he's offending my wife. But if I get up right now, this is going to cost me more than it's worth.

Let me deal with him backstage and talk to him one-on-one. But as soon as he got up out that chair, the internal battle was over. He lost. And then to Chris Rocks, I guess, not defense per se, but to give him a lot of credit, his self-control Control and restraint is something that I admired in that moment. And he was talked about bad after that. Like, he should have hit him. He should have did this and did that. When you do what I do in my community, that retaliation can also cost you your life. So when I saw Chris Rock, when he took the slap, which is interesting, being a man of the Most High, I think about what Jesuah Jesus said, whoever slaps you on the right cheek turns to them the other. What people don't understand, he wasn't saying be a coward or don't defend yourself. If I'm sitting across from you, like we are now in the time of Jesus, and I was to slap you, that's why he said, right cheek. For me to slap you on your right cheek, I would have to slap you either with my left hand, right, or the backside of my right-hand.

What he was saying wasn't that they would slap you with your left hand because it was used for unclean things, especially during that time, it was a right-hand in society. He was saying, if someone insults you, turn to them the other. It was actually out of rebellion, like, Here, take it. He wasn't talking about self-defense. So what Will Smith did when he slapped him, well, I actually slapped him this way.

Even harder.

Even harder than this. He was disrespectful. Chris Rock took it, said, You know what? I'm going to win this in the end. A lot of people say he could have been scared. No one knows. But for me who work with Black Boys in Detroit, it was important for me to see both sides because even to Will's, not defense, but understanding his childhood trauma, if you read his book, I believe even in that moment, he may have been thinking he was protecting his mother because his father abused his mother, and he said even all of his accomplishments was like a silent apology to his mother for never being able to stand up and defend her. See, a lot of people I don't know that. Cpsd, CPTSD, PTSDS, is real. So in that moment, that childhood trauma manifested in that moment. I've operated from it before. I don't put it past will. His actions were still inexcusable, but I understand. And so I see the contrast in both. I teach from both. I hope one day those two men can reconcile even after that. But even in that, it's like he could have lost almost everything in that moment.

How many men you know right now, intelligent, who are in prison?

Intelligent who are in prison?

Are in prison because they didn't have rule over their emotions in the moment and lost it. That's what happened to Will and to Chris Rocks, understanding his situation. Like, what about the trauma he experienced? That was in front of the entire world. It bothered me to see so many people talk about him. He should have done. He could have done. That was me. But it wasn't you. It was him. Do you even respect the fact that he chose not to respond in that way? Everyone wants to be tough or a gangster. I grew up around that. The men I knew... Matter of fact, one of the most dangerous men in the city of Hyland Park, a young kid was selling drugs on the street, slapped his hat off. Did he retaliate in the moment? No. Toke this hat off. Oh, I understand, young man, it's okay. And walked off. My brother would do the same because he knew if he did something to you then, he would get caught. I'm not responding right now. That's a reaction. If it's really real and I feel this way tomorrow or next year, I need to do something about it.

There were some consequences.

I take my hat off Chris in that moment. It took a lot not to just respond.

Yeah, also not to say anything.

I talk about that as well. He didn't respond physically or verbally.

Maybe there was some shock or some, Oh, I've got the show must go on.

Of course. But for you to say- He didn't react. How about let's make it practical for the average man. Your boss says something to you that pisses you off. Yeah. Do you slap him? Do you curse him You see the hypocrisy in this? The comedians who clowned him. You sign to Netflix, and the head of Netflix says something to offend you. Nine times out of 10, you probably won't say nothing to him. What's the difference? Chris Rock chose the best response for him in that moment. It's no different from a man boss irritating you. You're not going to cuss him out because you need that money to provide for your family.

Sure. You may leave that job in six months, or you may create a different decision. But yeah.

That's the thing about understanding how to be a comprehensive fighter. Even fighting spiritually, brother, I never shared when we were in New York for Tribeca, for the documentary with Lawrence Fishburn. I don't think I even shared this with him. My man, is that the night before we sleep, my wife and I sleep before the premiere, my phone rings, I hear it vibrating on the night stand. I look, it's my son. Him and my daughter are staying two floors below. I pick up the phone, Hey, what's going on, man? Dad, someone's banging on our door. A man was drunk, banging on my son and daughter's door. I run down, didn't get my shoes on, ran out. My wife immediately dropped her knees and started praying because I'm trained to really hurt you. I run down, and in the process, I'm processing in real-time. Okay, if I see this guy here, what do I need to do? How should I respond? A lot's going through my head. When I get to the floor, I see the guy. Thankfully, the security is there, and he passes out. He was drunk. His hotel room was at the same corner of the hotel, just a floor above, I believe.

Trying to get in, yeah. What if I had gotten there before security? You might have. But But I know from another situation that to be able to process in real time to see... Because I still was very angry, Louis. I still wanted to hurt him.

Of course.

But I had to let all of that go in that moment. Many men still would have confronted him and probably punched or slapped him. Do you see how things were set up spiritually? Because what if I would have gotten an altercation with him the night before the red copper premiere of that film, everything could have been lost.

Is there anything Who did you go to jail for?

Of course, my family, definitely. Protecting them, which I'm supposed to do as a man. I go to jail for my Lord, of course, whatever that looks like many were in prison for their faith. Those two, definitely. Even the boys I serve, I'm very protective. I love them. They're my own son, my children. Anyone comes in, if they in our building trying to harm them, I have to protect them.

You see someone harming your family and you go into protector mode and you would do whatever to defend them, even knowing if it set you in jail for the rest of your life?

If you're harming my... You're trying to harm my family, I have no choice but to take you off the Earth. And that's serious. If you're touching my wife, I have no choice but to eliminate you, eliminate terminate the threat immediately, and I would deal with the rest later. I'd rather be judged by 12 and carried by six. But if you have the audacity to come to my loved ones like that, I will take care of you. I would respond accordingly. No emotion involved. I would do what I had to do. That's just it. My daughter, my wife, I mean, the guy was following her. I shared in this book in the fighter chapter. This is where I failed. This is perfect. The guy was following her, man. I hear my wife on the phone. She calls me, Jason, a man's following me. What do you do? Martha, someone's following her. You immediately get in your car and go to where she is. I did that. Race there, two guns in my hoodie. You had two guns? I could legally carry, yes. You're tactically trained.

You had two of them?

Mm-hmm. You were ready for whatever. I was livid. Yeah. I mean, this is my-In Detroit? It was Detroit Metro, Detroit, right outside.

It was Detroit area.

I wish she was getting in here. I pull up.

So you're at home. She calls you. There's a guy following me. You said, Where? Boom. Guns in. I'm locked and loaded. I'm there. Trucks freaking driving. Ten minutes.

Pull up in the gas station, and I said, Stay on the phone with me. I said, Where's the guy? He's behind. I said, All right, walk out. I'm at the gas station.

She came to the gas station.

She had to go to a public place because she was scared. Of course. So she went to the gas station, could be around more people. Wow. She walks out. Here he comes. I'm flippin. I'm be like, So I'm moving.

See, John Wick up in here.

I get out, walk to her. I look at him, he's sipping coffee. And I walked her to the car. I get in the car. She's safe and secure, bro. Oh, you got to do his lead. Are you okay? She was like, Yes, I'm fine. I said, All right. So I'm sitting there I'm looking at him and I'm like, he doesn't know how serious this is. Oh, man. I get back out the truck. Again, I love being transparent so they can see. Of course. No one's superhuman. No, of course. I walk up to him. I said, Hey, why was you following my wife? Jesus. That's scary. He says, I wasn't following your wife. I get nose to nose with him. I was about to headbutton. And through my teeth, I said, So you calling him a wife a liar, my man?

Oh, my gosh.

And I'm thankful because what if he would have been the type of guy to say, Man, get up off me?

Yeah, push you or say something. If he said one exact thing at you.

Just to see how I failed in that moment. But the hyper-masculine male would have said, No, you did what you're supposed to do. What I was supposed to do was make sure my wife made it back safe. And to get out. Yeah.

To use the situation.

And leave. She's safe. See, that's what the competence of fighter does. He keeps himself in an advantageous position.

However-in jiu-jitsu, you're taught not to fight, right?

It's like almost-No, you talk to fight.

But it's almost like you're You got to not engage in the fight if you don't have to.

That's every martial I should.

It's like, diffuse the situation, get away.

What I love about jiu-jitsu is you don't have to meet force with force all the time. See, that's That's what I did. I had won the battle. I took it away. I had her say, I should have pulled her away.

Then you reengaged in the battle.

That's where I felt. That could have changed my entire life. It could have ruined your life. Absolutely. That's what I teach me. It's like, Keep yourself in a contagious position. Again, if he would say he had a knife coming at her, it's justifying- Different.

It's justifying. He's just sipping coffee. What did he say he was doing?

He just said he wasn't following her. But I don't know he was lying. My wife isn't Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was just enraged at the fact that possibly someone could harm my beloved wife. Of course. I don't play those games. It was a mistake, and I hope men, when they read that, like, wow. You see, we've all been in those situations. Of course, I've been in those situations. Yeah, of course.

Luckily, I didn't have guns on me, but yeah, because I don't know if I would be that.

But you don't need a gun. Of course. Yeah. The End someone's life or hurt someone battling out to go to jail forever. Yeah, you can-One punch. Absolutely. That's why I started with the fighter chapter because I know men could identify with that. But the key is to teach them how to fight the right way.

Okay, let me ask you about this then.

Yes.

If a man doesn't have the qualities, the characteristics of a comprehensive man to protect and provide, and he tries to enter in a relationship with a woman and get into a serious committed relationship. In your perspective, in your experience of working with so many men, what will typically happen if a man never learns to protect and provide Whether it be physically, financially, spiritually, emotionally, emotionally, whatever it might be, what will happen to that relationship?

It won't make it. It won't even make it not just for him. As a man, do you know how heartrending it is when you can't pay the bills, when you can't provide? Let's move protection. I mean, I hope most men will be able to do whatever they can to protect a woman. You may not be skilled, which I also tell me you should learn a martial art that's tested for street situations, real life situations. But just move protection of the-Provider. Providing. You won't feel good about yourself. No man wants to see his children struggle. I had mentors- But what about women that are like, You know what?

I'm making good money. I've He got a high paying salary. I can provide for myself and for both of us, so I don't need him to provide because he gives me other things. He's kind to me. He's nice to me. He's considerate. He's a gentleman. He's thoughtful. He's the lover. He brings all these amazing... He's good to me and my family. What about that situation?

He still needs to be in his position in that home. So what I mean by that is it was at one point in our marriage when Nicole made significantly more than I did, and I still was the provider and the leader. Be deeper than money. How?

How can you How can you provide if you're on life?

I'm trying to see if I want to say this, and I'm going to say it. Coming up, being young, all the drug dealers got the best-looking women. They had the money. But they miss providing everything else that guys like myself was able to move in on, where their money would take care of me. Literally, where their girls' money would take care of me. Really? What is provision to a woman? Is it just money? No. It's everything. All those characteristics are providing. Again, my wife made significantly more money than me, but because I could provide I'd in all the other areas, and now I make more than her, of course, we were able to make it.

But if a man can't provide financially- I agree.

No, that's what I'm saying. A man will not feel good about himself as the man, as the father, as the husband, if you're not contributing any finances.

I know- What if you're like, I want to be a stay-at-home dad, and I want to just be there for my kids, and she's got an amazing job, so she They often go make money all day.

I owe a couple like that right now, and it works really well. They were losing money the other way as a man just wanting to be the provider.

Do you think most women can accept that if their man isn't financially providing?

What does a woman really want? I'm just saying, just from my experience, my wife even shared in another interview, it wasn't about that. She was trained differently by her parents and what she saw. They both worked hard. I mean, successful marriages, you got to have two jobs now. Money is far from what will satisfy a woman? It's stability and what does that look like? So for me, when I didn't make as much money, I would have to do odd-end jobs. I would clean people's homes to bring in extra money. Okay? And so that is still not enough. Office, I get what you're saying. It's like you don't want to get into a relationship and you can't provide. To me, that's short-sighted. It's irresponsible. When I mentor young men, if you want to get married, how much are you making right now? But don't let what you don't have stop what you can get. And that's what many of us as men fail. You have a woman who's ready, and you may not make what you want to make right now. She may make more than you. But I didn't care because that money went to the same bank account.

Put the ego aside and start building your kingdom. I am a living testimony that it works, but you have to put that aside. Any mature woman will tell you it's more than money that's going to make that marriage. Sure. But if the woman is in protector and provider mode, if she's in it and he is not stepping into his comprehensive protector provider mode, not masculine, but comprehensive protector provider mode, have you seen a relationship work where the woman is in protector provider and the man is not? No, because that's like she's a single mother, almost. A woman needs to feel protected. She needs shelter. She needs a covering. As a man of God, Christ is my head, I'm the head of my wife. So it has to have some order for a woman. A woman wants stability. She wants to feel that things will be okay. But if you're not stable, especially emotionally, again, you won't be able to make money if you're emotionally unstable. So no, to your point, you need to know how to provide and protect even if you're not making the money that you want to bring to the table, but just doing something.

I tell men who are unemployed, still get up like you have a job, get dressed, and leave the house until you get a job. Never become comfortable sitting still at home.

Why are men lazies today? Not all men, obviously, but why does it feel like a society of more lazy men than more hardworking men?

I believe it's, again, of going to the cause and effect psychology, what's causing them to be disconnected with being that provider, going out, having that work ethic. Every man that I talk to, I have a friend of mine who gets laid often, not laid off, get fired from jobs. He's really good. But until we could help him feel like, What's causing you to lose so many jobs? To dig and go deep to, Wait a minute. It was my fear of failure due to what happened as a child here. A lot of men are lazy, not because they don't have the work ethic, per se, but because they have lost a desire to live. Why have they lost a desire? A lot of times it's due to childhood trauma or situations or present losses that they haven't been able to let go of. I know you see it, guys. You're going off to drinking and other vices now just to find some peace or some freedom. I don't think it's laziness in all cases. Laziness does exist. But when you see a man just dejected and discontented with life, it's much deeper than him just being lazy.

Every time I work with a man to help him get to his cause and effect, he starts finding reasons to live again. I often say, you're not tired of living, you're tired of not living. Finding out that piece right there. Why am I not living? What's happening? Here. When a man finds that answer, he starts walking out of what I call emotional incarceration and starts to live. There'll be setbacks, but long as he keeps walking throughout, he'll be fine. But I don't believe it's It's just laziness. Got you.

What do you think is the number one thing that holds men back from being their most authentic, highest versions of themselves?

Fear of how they'll be perceived. Really? Oh, yeah, man. I can't tell you how many times when I share this information with men at conferences, and they'll say, Well, what happens if your girl disrespects you and calls you weak or soft? And I tell them, You've been blessed, and the whole audience has started laughing.

She's not your girl.

It's just not. Be thankful. Do not compromise who you really are for anyone.

Man, it's so hard for people, though, because in a world of people-pleasing, that's really hard to do.

But the most unhappiest people I've ever met are people-pleases.

Yeah, it's true.

So there's no silence in that. So again, you don't want to be authentic and you are a-hole. That's not comprehensive. So again, I talk about the four R's in this book, a process I teach men of how to make decisions in the moment and reflect. So the first R is reflect, second R is release, third R is reset, then the fourth R is a byproduct of those three, which is rest. So when you reflect on what's troubling you, what's going on in your life. You think on those things, you get to the next R, which is release. You got to be careful there because you don't want to release everything because- And you don't want to release on someone. Yeah, that's true, too. But if you were Martha, if you were impatient with Martha earlier in the day, you don't want to just release that. You want to retain that so you can revisit it and maybe apologize and say, Hey, I was impatient with you earlier, and I want to ask for your forgiveness, and I want to reconcile right now. Yeah. Next one is the reset. Reset back to your baseline. I call it lamb mode.

So many men want to be in lion mode or the alpha mode. Is it lamb mode? Lamb, like a lamb. Sheep, lamb. And so The lion and the lamb, that's what we teach in the cave of Adelim, to bring up the lion when there's predators coming into your pride. I call that fight or flight, the brain's response to stress or trauma. Handle it then, but don't stay there. See, I stayed there in the gas station when that guy was following my wife. I should have reset to lamb mode because everything was safe. And so that's what I teach me. It's like, Look, never suppress the lion. Bring him out when needed for putting back and live from the land. Then you can reset, and there you will find rest.

You have one son, right?

Yes.

What's your biggest fear as a father with your son?

Right now, he's 16th state of this country is some driving. Disproportionately, African-Americans are pulled over more than any other ethnicity. Even with unfound, fair cause, no just cause, to be pulled over. Statistically, we are less likely to have drugs or firearms. So I'm scared. I'm concerned with that, but I trust that God will take care of him the same way he took care of my daughter when she was interning in New York. And I love New York. I just didn't want my daughter just on the subway alone. It's just terrifying. But with him, that's my concern. And I'm thankful for the police officers I do who are just and kind, all different ethnicities. I have faith that my son, and I have to train them. See, that's the dynamic of being an African-American in this country. When you have a son, you don't have to teach him how to respond when the police pour you over, per se. I literally tell my son to roll all four windows down so he won't feel threatened, to make Disarm the police officer. As soon as he pulls you over, make sure- Your hands up on the... And have your ID out.

Do you know what that does to his adrenaline, his mind? Just one move could cost him his life.

One fast reaction.

It's terrifying as a father, just to be real with you. But yet, I have to cast that. I can't live from that. I had a lot of losses, and I don't want to live from that type of mentality. I won't be able to stay in the present. My trauma would keep time traveling and ruining it. I should be excited that my son has a driver's license and can drive. I work with police officers as well at times to understand the trauma they've endured. My best friend, I talk about him in this book, he's a retired police officer. Ptsd is real.

Getting shot at, getting I know.

My office getting shot at. Most police officers don't even have to experience that. It's seeing the trauma at a crime scene.

All the dead bodies they see.

Or a person with a bullet hole talking to you, shot in the head, talking to you, trying to tell you who shot them. That's what my best friend had to endure.

He had a bullet in his head and he was able to speak?

He's trying to articulate to the office of my friend who shot him and he couldn't. Oh, my gosh. My friend, it's difficult for him to sleep at night. In this book here, I share that he had a moment of just intense anger, frustration, and then his wife actually had cancer. She's deceased now. He said he grabbed his stern wheel so fierce that imprints from his fingernails was in his palm. That's how hard he was grabbing the stern wheel because of all that he saw as a police officer.

You probably just see the worst of society as a police officer which has got to be traumatizing every day. You're probably on guard. Even you do a routine stop.

He tells me all the time. I remember one time we caught some kids who were breaking in homes in his neighborhood But I pull up, I see the kids breaking in his neighbor's house. I call him, he runs out. By the time he comes out, they're in the car. I didn't know where they were. But his training, we're driving, says, That's them. I said, How do you know? Because us, he's constantly in fight or flight. Wow. He was able to... It was the car.

Detect how they're moving.

The movement of the car, why is a female driving? There's three guys, and he knew all of that, but he's like that all the time. A friend of mine who was a ex-marine. Same thing. When I think of my son driving at the same time, I know not all cops are out to get young Black boys. I do know that. My mind is on both sides. I pray, I let go, and I continue to do my work to help as many men as possible. What I love about the reach of social media, I had cops stop me just to talk to them. Seriously.

They're like, Here we go.

I'm like, Man, I don't do this thing. But they'll say, Hey, do you have a moment to talk? It's humbling because to know that here it is as a man, you see him in uniform, think he should have it together, and he does it. Just to talk about marriage and life And it's a rough day to day. That's what I tell my son to always consider. I always try to consider the last stop they could have had.

Yeah.

Even then, it's no guarantee, but it does increase your chances of going home.

A hundred %, yeah. And how you respond to things calm way.

I often tell my boys to say, The car is not a courtroom. Get home. Then get a lawyer. They don't need it.

Just, Yes, sir.

Yes, sir. There's no guarantee that it works because We've seen the yes, sir, no, sir, and it's still in the other way. But yeah, man, as a father, a loving father, I love my son deeply. It's a fear, but I'm going to lean on God with that, man. I'm going to trust you again.

What do you think is your ultimate purpose in this life from this moment until the moment you die?

I don't know. People would say, The Cave of Adolam is my life work. I swear I don't think no one could tell me my life's work until I'm dead, because I could do something at aid that could change everything. My purpose, I believe, is being a servant, allowing myself to be used by God to reach as many people as possible and help them heal, man. To truly find life and living, especially with me and my heart breaks for menness, specifically because we're hiding so much, man. I see them, we talk. I see right through the filters. And it breaks my heart because they're struggling, and they want to be free like me, where I can just share and don't care how I'm perceived anymore.

What's the area in your life where you're hiding the most?

Where I'm hiding the most? I don't think there's an area anymore, my man. I mean, now once I can cry in front of my wife, that was the ultimate like, Oh, my God, how is she going to take this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, man, I believe all of us, though, have moments where we feel that we're not good enough. Like, Man, how am I going to do this public speaking? Whatever it is, he's just like... But I put all that aside, man, and move through it. And then again, leaning on those memories of what happened when I allowed myself to be transparent. It worked out. I never thought I would have cried ever in front of Nicole, my wife. But it's amazing how she respects me so much more that she can see the comprehensiveness in who I am as a man and to see I embody all of the characteristics and even more, it shows her that it gives her the freedom to be scared. It gives It's a bit of freedom to not be okay, to know that, wait a minute, my husband does it and he makes it.

I can do it, too. For the women watching right now who maybe are watching or maybe a friend of them sent this video or this audio because they said, Hey, you should listen to these two guys talk about this. Maybe they've been more closed off, emotionally. Or maybe they've struggled being vulnerable in front of the the man in their life, or the men in their father, their husband, their boyfriend, the men in their life that they're the closest with. They struggled letting go and surrendering those emotions. It sounds like Nicole had anger emotions as well, she wasn't as able to receive you being vulnerable or being open, I guess, right? Yes, absolutely. She wasn't able to see your heart fully open up and have a range of transparency, like you said, right? In If there's women watching or listening that are used to the paradigm of men need to protect and provide and not show those emotions in front of me, what is available on the other side if that woman or those women can start to allow their man to fully be open because sometimes women will say, I wish he would show his emotions.

I wish he would be more vulnerable. I wish he would cry. I wish he would express himself. But then when they see that side of the man, they're like, What are you doing? They're like, Oh, that's not That's a turn on. That's a turn off. Or, Yeah, it looks a little weak. I know I'm supposed to like this, but I don't like it because I've been conditioned for my life that my dad didn't do that, or I don't know anyone who shows their emotions that way. What's available for women who accept the man to be transparent with his emotions in front of her consistently? What's available on the other side?

First and foremost, I would say to them what my wife would tell them, make a decision. What do you really want? Do you want this man who provides and protects, don't show you the other side of his life, and then you find out what was really going on, planning his funeral? Or do you want a man who can be emotionally open with you, and in the process, you're able to be emotionally open with him because now he has a capacity to receive it. Do you want a partner in life or just a performer? So Once you make that decision, now we can move forward. It's going to be difficult because, again, you weren't trained this way. But every daughter sees sides and their father like, Man, I wish he would have done this because he would be much healthier where he is day? Do you want your husband, when he can't be strong, when he can't provide as much, to feel like, I might as well just die? Or would you rather have had a husband who found his worth in who he is instead of what he does so that when he becomes an elder, he enjoys that stage of his life.

Right. And so once they make the decision, understand it's going to be work just like the marriage, but on the other side, to have a man who can sit there, table everything he's thinking about, and lock in with you because he knows it's important to hear your heart? If you make the right decision, it will literally transform your marriage, your life, and your children's future.

Here's the real question then. For women who have been hurt by men in their lives over and over again, their father, ex-boyfriends, and let down by men consistently, lied to, cheating on, manipulated, promised something and then underdelivered, the men in their lives have hurt them and let them down over and over again. How can women who have been hurt that much by men learn to love men again, learn to trust men again, learn to trust themselves when they're with men, when they've been let down consistently over and over by their father or the previous men they've been with, and they've never really found a good man?

That's a very good question. One young lady who's married, I was talking with. Been through a lot of abuse growing up. Father pretty much disowned her. That's the ultimate for a daughter. Then form of infidelity in the marriage, or I would say, adultery. At that point, her life was just like, I'm done with this. I simply asked her, I said, Where's your identity? Again, back to where it started this conversation. Is it your identity as a daughter? Is it your identity as a wife? Or is it your identity as your daughter in God. Which one is the most important? What are the rules? Which one is your identity? I get emotional because when she realized that her identity was different from a role, she founds value. My role as a father, as a husband, teacher, mentor. Those are my roles. My identity is in the one who created. Can't be shaken then. Once you find that and make that your foundation, people will always disappoint you. My wife, before we met, she was not in a good relationship, was with men. I had to really pursue her. She gave love another try, and look what happened.

So I would tell that every woman was going through that, trying to shake that mentality is really research and take time to find out who you really are and who your identity really is. That way it can't be shaken.

For anyone watching or listening right now, I want you to share this with one man or one woman in your life that you care about that you think you could just have an interesting conversation with. Send this to them and say, Hey, what opened up to you? What inspired you? What resonated? What didn't resonate? Let's talk about it. Let's have a discussion about this because I think the way we can just all improve is to have these types of conversations and hear different perspectives. Share this with one person and then ask them to share back with you their biggest takeaway from this conversation with Jason Wilson. The Man, the Moment demands. Master the 10 characteristics of a comprehensive man. Again, if you're a woman watching and you're in a relationship with a man, get them this book and send them this video, have them connect with what I think are two masculine-looking guys, and maybe they'll resonate with us based on what we've accomplished, our success, and the way we look. Hopefully, this will resonate in some way because we both suffered emotionally, physically, spiritually, and financially in our lives. I would say that we both found peace and freedom on the other side of going through the fire of all the crap and finding healing.

Because at the core of all this is finding healing. You talk about the tree of emotions, the tree of-Tree of trauma.

Tree of trauma. To find healing.

If you want to become free, you have to heal the trauma. No one wants to talk about that. We hear it a lot. I talk about it all the time, but no one wants to get to the root of the pain because it's so painful.

Absolutely. You have to uproot the tree.

It's not enjoyable. It's not an enjoyable process.

We cut our Branches. That's what I talk about. But branches grow back. We put on a mask. Oh, yeah, for sure. Instead of keep cutting off the branches, uproot the tree and move it to a different environment so that it could thrive. That it could heal. Absolutely. Yeah, and become strong.

It's not easy, but it's worth it. I want people to get the book. It's very powerful. Follow Jason Wilson as well. He's the Director of the Cave of a Dullam, Transformational Training Academy, which is inspiring. Make sure to check that out. You're also on social media, Mr. Jason Wilson, all over Facebook, Instagram, social media, Mr. Jasonwilson. Com, and the book is out right now, at the moment of this being out there. So make sure you guys get a copy. Give it to the men in your life. If you're a woman, you're going to want to read this as well because you're going to want to understand, Is my man actually living up to these things or not? Or what is the things that I really want in a partner if I'm single, if I'm a woman, learn about the characteristics and start assessing the men that you're going on dates with. Oh, is he embodying this or on the journey? There's not many men are going to be perfect at all 10 of these. I don't even know if that's possible. That's the truth, yeah. But Hey, is he on the journey of this? Do I see that he's working on these things?

Is he living into this? Not does he have the potential, but is he on the journey of living this already? Absolutely. Because I think you've got to, yes, Now, men have potential to become greater at all times, but if you're meeting a man at the first moment and he doesn't want to grow, it's hard to just hope that he's going to live into his potential in the near future. That's true. That's very good. He's got to be on that journey right now. You can't just say, Well, I know he has the potential, so it's going to happen one day. It may never happen the time you want it, right? It's like, we all have the opportunity to do it, but it takes timing for some. It's got to be the right timing, the right triggers, traumas for others, break It sounds like things got to happen sometimes.

Reste around these, the right mentors.

All of it.

That's really good. I never thought about that, brother, just for women to see what type of characteristics they should have in a man. I tell men all the time, I wrote it for men who are tired of being the wrong men in the moment. We all blow it as fathers, leaders, as sons, trying to care for your parents who are aging.

The funny thing is I wrote The Mask of Masculinity for Men, but more women read it. But the men that do read it, it's transformational for them. It's like, wow, I am realizing all the things where I was wounded and I'm healing, and rowing and all these things. But you always hear these things about women having this list for when they're a single, and they write down a list of all the things they want in a man. I wanted to be tall and make money and successful and make me laugh. All these things of a list. If you want the real list, write down these 10 characteristics. If you want to have a thriving relationship, not a superficial, good-looking relationship on social media, where you think he looks good on paper, you want to have him living up to these 10 characteristics, make a list of these 10. Then you can add, Yeah, he's a funny personality, or he's outgoing, or he likes to travel, and he likes adventure, and he likes dogs, whatever. But he likes all those things, but he lacks the ability to provide. He lacks the ability to protect. He lacks the ability to be a lover, a friend, a father, a son.

If he lacks the ability to step into those things because that's not what he wants, then you are going to struggle in that relationship, after a few years, you're going to say, why is he not stepping into this? Why is he not living into this embodiment of a comprehensive man? The man that I dream of being with as a woman? If you can write down that as your list. When you're going on dates, start asking yourself, is he living into this? Is he being a gentleman? Is he being chivalrous? Is he being his word? Is he living into these characteristics? You will live a much more harmonious and joyful relationship than a fun, chemically bonded relationship that has great sex or looks good on social media but suffers silently in the background. Write these down and ladies as your list when you go out there and look for the guy you want to date. You see what I'm saying?

Yes. I'm going to close with this. I want to... I commend you, man. I'm really proud of you. Marriage, just everything I know, just some things that we've talked about, which they don't need to know, but I just want to thank you just for being authentic, man, and just really moving in, following your heart, brother. Thank you. I see it, especially after your father passed. I recognize that in you, man. I just want to commend you for being an authentic man and following the good in your heart instead of your fears, man. Thanks, brother. Just everything, the home, just everything I see you're doing, man. I just want to commend you. It's very inspirational to me I don't know if you know that, but I wanted to tell you that you inspired me to step even further out of this other comfort zones I may have. Sure. So I just wanted to salute you in that, for us. Thank you. Seem like you always find a way to meet the moment. And so I salute you in that.

I'm just trying to be the man the moment demands. You're doing it. Try to be that. You're doing it. Not always perfect, but trying to- It's about perfection.

It's about just practicing it. Appreciate it. Thanks for your all.

For sure. Yeah, man. I I've asked you this before about the three truths in the previous interview, so I'm going to have people go watch our previous episode to get that answer. But I want to ask you your definition of greatness one more time to see if it's different from the last time. Probably don't even remember. I don't remember. But just curious where you're at after writing this book. Before I do, Jason, I want to acknowledge you, man, for constantly being of service. I was at Mass this last weekend with Martha and the... I don't know. What do they call it at Mass? I'm new to Mass, but I don't know if it's a preacher or a pastor. I'm not a Catholic. Yeah, it's more Martha's thing, but I go to support her. But there's great wisdom there, great messages. The preacher or the pastor, I don't know what he called at Mass, but the person giving the messages of the day. He said, A lot of people in life today are trying to understand their purpose, and they don't know what their purpose is. They're living in fear, or they're depressed, or these different things because they're not clear on what their purpose is.

He said, There are some individuals in this church who I am not going to ask the question because I know that they know. But I'm going to ask these two teenage kids that was sitting next to him, near him, to come up and answer, What is our purpose? We had these kids come and teach the congregation. He said, Okay, what is your purpose? They said, To know God, to love God, and to serve God. I want to acknowledge you for living into that purpose fully, for embracing it and for knowing God, loving God, and being of service, and mentoring so many people in the world who need a messenger and a mentor that they can believe in, that they can trust, and that they can live up to the message of. I acknowledge you for stepping into that. I continue to encourage nudge you into your greatest fears that I believe of what you're possible for the next phase as well. So I appreciate it, brother. But final question, what's your definition of greatness?

I guess I have to follow what you just said about your purpose in God. So you're sure Jesus said, The least shall be the greatest in the Kingdom of God. The what will be? The least shall be the greatest in the Kingdom of God. Those who are servants here, those who are looked upon as the least here, shall be the greatest. That's the greatest for me, is being a servant, helping others, walking in humility, meekness, not weakness. That's my definition currently of being great, because I have to surrender more to where I know he wants me to go. For me to surrender, that means I'm under a master who is the greatest. As long as I'm in my place where I need to be, I'll be fine. To me, greatness is for me having a kingdom mind, being the least, being the servant, looking out for others, and understanding that I have one who is the The greatest of them all, looking out for them.

I guess to follow up with that, what is... If people aren't intentionally living a life of service, what is happening to those individuals if they're not thinking, I'm here to serve, whether it's through their gifts and talents or their art or sport? If they're not thinking service mentality and they're thinking self mentality, what are they creating for themselves?

I don't believe they're creating anything which is interesting. They're not creating anything? Basically, it's self-absorbed, like you're saying. What do you want to lead? What will be your legacy? Will it be all about you, or will it be more about what you've done? For me, even when I read my audiobook, I thought about how that would be here on Earth, how my son, my daughter, my grandchildren, their children will have it. Because I was a servant, because I chose to give more than I received, they will find more to life that way. When I was all about myself, my goals, my desires, I wasn't happy. There was no fulfillment. But when I put my dreams on hold for his will, I found life. I found life, man. I tell people all the time, Try it. Just try it. Deny yourself and watch what happens. My man. Chase, love you. Thanks, bro. I appreciate. Always good talking with you. Powerful. Always good. Yeah. Thank you, man.

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