Transcript of Elizabeth Gilbert: How To Stop Manifesting TOXIC Love & ATTRACT Healthy Relationships

I've spoken very openly about identifying as a sex and love addict. I was trying to find, what is the formula? Who do I have to connect with that this is gonna work? That this great echoing, God sized hole within me, this deep, unsolvable problem of never feeling like there's enough love?

Elizabeth Gilbert, she is the number one New York Times best selling author of Big Magic and Eat, Pray Love.

Author, Seeker, and spiritual trailblazer. Elizabeth Gilbert is here. And I'm a good manifesto. You're a good manifesto. In the realm of romantic and intimate connection, I've gotten what I wanted. I've gotten who I wanted at times.

And then it worked.

It almost killed me. What would unconditional love want you to know today if it could speak to you? It's gotten me through the hardest things in my life. It's gotten me through two divorces. It's gotten me through an addiction crisis. It's gotten me through the death of the most important person in my life. This is who you are. You are this being who is loved. And that is it.

That's beautiful.

I lost myself in that before she died. So I lost both of us. You lost me, and I lost her. It's like the death was almost an afterthought to the great loss of both of us to our own unhealed trolla.

Wow. So you're looking for people to be the solution, but it wasn't. What was the solution?

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Welcome, everyone, to the school of greatness. Very excited about our guests. We have the inspiring Liz Gilbert, who I feel like we've only hung out four times, maybe. I don't know. But for whatever reason, I feel very connected to you. I feel like you're like a bigger sister to me. I feel a sense of maybe everyone says that about you because they're. They're so connected to your message and your words and your content and your books. Probably everyone says that about you. Like you, they feel like they know you very well. But I truly feel, energetically that we have a great connection. And I hope that we can hang out more in the future, because it's been almost seven years since I've seen, I know.

Isn't that crazy? Crazy. It's so hard to believe. I feel the same way about you. And if I had the height and strength and capacity to pick you up, the way you always pick me up when you see me, I would pick you up as my baby brother. So I just want you to know that I'm doing that in my heart. Even if I can't physically do it.

You pick me up emotionally. You pick me up with your heart. I love that. I love that. I'm so excited that you were doing this because the last time you on was what, seven, eight years ago, I guess?

Yeah, I think it was like eight.

Years ago, a while ago. And a lot has happened in your life. Yeah, I reference you a lot in different interviews because you. For a number of reasons. But the one reason I remember you specifically saying, I can't remember if it was a TED talk or if you said it on my show, but I remember you talking about after eat, pray, love came out. You know, maybe it was a year or two later, you thinking and saying, like, this may be my biggest hit ever and being hard to like, how do you bounce back after a big success? So I referenced that a lot because I think when people kind of make a big hit that seems like out of nowhere, I always say, go listen to what Liz talks about because she's an expert in this subject and how to really create an identity for yourself after a big success or a big hit and things like that. So I reference you a lot, but today I want to talk about love, love addiction, overcoming love addiction, manifesting love and all these things that you're an expert now, I guess, from the different ups and downs in love and relationships, challenges, beauties that you've been through.

And it's been an interesting journey for you in the last seven years, probably ten years, I guess, like 54 years. But in terms of, like, what you've learned about love, attracting love, uncoupling, you know, addiction, all these different things, which I don't think people thought you were, knew you as, but now you're starting to speak about more. You've got an amazing platform. These love letters that you've been putting out in the world for the last year as well, that's kind of like, I guess, your therapy of expressing some of these things and allowing people to express their definition of love and their life in love. Can you share first about that and what that is? And then I'd love for you to share afterwards kind of your three big lessons about love and love addiction that you've learned about in the last few years.

Great, let's go. Let's go right into it. So let me start by talking about this project that I've been doing that you're going to be part of that makes me so happy. And it's on substack, which is a sort of social media blogging platform that a lot of writers are shifting to recently as a way of getting away from the venomous, poisonous snake that is social media has infected all of our brains. A way to. It's almost like a reverse technology. It's like 1990s blogging. And I've been looking for ways to get off social media while at the same time being able to connect with people. And I've also been looking for ways to teach this practice that I've been doing for almost 20 years. That is the foundational spiritual practice of my life. And that is every morning I write myself a letter from the spirit of unconditional love, starting with this prompt. And the prompt is, dear love, what would you have me know today? And then imagining it starts as an act of imagination, but over time, it actually becomes an act of listening and sort of downloading. But let's say we start with imagination.

What would unconditional love want you to know today if it could speak to you? And it's so extraordinarily healing. It's so the opposite of the perfectionistic, brutal. I call it the internal terrorist self talk that most of us were raised to think is a perfectly normal way to talk to ourselves. And what tends to come out in those letters is this spirit of tremendous gentleness, of, you're perfect just the way you are. I've got you. I'm with you. It's all the things that essentially, I've always wished that somebody else would say.

To me, like a mother or father.

Would say to me, a mother, a father, a partner, a friend, that somebody would just say, like, I've got you, and I'm here with you, and I'm not going anywhere. And you actually don't need to improve or change or perfect yourself in order to earn this love. It can't be earned. It can't be lost. It's got nothing to do with performance. Your birthright, like, this is who you are. You are this being who is loved. And that is it. And I can't hear it enough. And it's gotten me through the hardest things in my life. It's gotten me through two divorces. It's gotten me through an addiction crisis. It's gotten me through the death of the most important person in my life. Through all of this, one day at a time, there has been this voice that's accessible, that's like, it's all right. It's all right. It doesn't matter. I don't need you to succeed. I don't need you to not fail. So I started this substack community called letters from love, where I'm teaching people how to do this practice, how to write themselves. Letters from unconditional love. And it is so astonishing. One of the things that I find incredible about it, we've got.

It's been 13 months since I started it. We have almost 130,000 people doing this now. And they post their letters on this newsletter so I can read the letters that unconditional love is writing to them. And here's the wild thing. They're hearing the same voice I'm hearing, which makes me think, like, oh, we're all tuning into the same radio station. Something is saying to all of us, you're my child. You're my beloved. You can't do this wrong. I've got you. It doesn't matter. I'm right here. And it's so beautiful to see this messaging being echoed across all of these people who need it just as much as I need it, as much as we all need it.

Who do you think is saying this to you?

The cosmos? You know, I think love is saying it.

What is love?

I think we know it when we hear it. I think there have been times when I've asked that voice, are you God? And it has said, no, I'm love. I'm included in Goddesse. And I've said to that voice sometimes, are you reah, my partner who died seven years ago, and it says, no, I'm love. I was included in Rhea, but I'm not Rhea. God is bigger than that. God, I think, is more than just love. I think God is the great mystery that's beyond the beyond the beyond. But love is something else. And I think a lot of times I've tried to sort of game. I've tried to sort of game it by treating it like it is God and saying, like, especially when I'm in the midst of a terrible crisis or a horrible dilemma, saying to it, what's gonna happen? How is this gonna end? Like, what does the future hold?

But love can't answer that.

No, it's not. And love has said to me very directly, that's not my department.

I'm not God.

It's not my department. I don't know, I have no idea what the future holds, but I know that I'll be with you through it. Like, you won't. Whatever's coming, you won't go through it alone. Even if everyone else leaves. Even if you end up living under a bridge, wearing a plastic bag and spitting at people who walk by, I'll be with you in that. Wow. Like, so whatever happens, like, no matter how disastrous it'll be. And I remember one time in a moment of terrible crisis saying to love on the page, when will this end and how will it end? And love was like, I don't have any more of an idea than you do, but I'm with you. And I remember in my anger saying, if you can't tell me how this is going to end, and you can't tell me when this is going to end, and you can't tell me what to do, what use are you? And love said, I am company and comfort in your darkest hour so that you don't have to go through this alone. And I've learned so much about how to be present to people when they are in their darkest hour.

Through the way that unconditional love speaks to me. I can now sit with somebody when they're in their deepest emergency and they're asking those questions, why is this happening? When is this going to end? What am I supposed to do? And instead of leaping into my codependent advice giving, which is always driven by panic on my part, I can actually access that voice that says, I actually don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know when this is going to end. But I'm here with you. Yeah.

I'm here for you right now.

I'm here with you. Yeah.

Wow. It's interesting. What's coming up for me is two things as you're saying all this. I grew up in a christian religion that on the wall just said, God is love. So every time I went to church, I just saw God is love, just right in front, constantly. And what I'm hearing you say, God might be love, but love doesn't mean it's God. Right. It's part of God.

God is a lot of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Including a big question mark.

Yeah, exactly. Right.

And love is a very specific thing.

Yeah, exactly. Another thing that's coming up for me is about three and a half, four years ago, I started doing my own healing journey. I've been on a healing journey for ten years. Really? But three and a half, four years ago, I went on a deeper journey to really heal the inner child inside of me. The parts of me that I thought I'd done the healing work because I started opening up about sexual abuse ten years ago, and I thought I'd done the work, but I hadn't really done it. And weekly I was seeing a coachman therapist to support the journey for me to heal about three and a half, four years ago. And after about six months, she had me do an exercise where I was alone, you know, in my bed, and I was reconnecting, literally, with the five year old and me right in front of me, like, I put myself in a spiritual ceremony to see, you know, five year old Louis and all the fears and insecurities and doubts and uncertainties that he had. Therefore, I had have. And I created a new relationship with him to where I said, I've got you, I'm here for you.

Even if we're alone in the side of a bridge spitting at people, as an adult in this relationship, I am now here for you. I've got your back. Whereas I've been carrying this child inside of me and just. He was still wounded and afraid, but I didn't have his back. And I started to learn how to heal man, create meaning to where I was able to integrate him in me and love him fully. And I think most of my life I was angry at the past, and it doesn't mean I still don't like things that happened, but I learned to love all the parts of me which created more peace inside of me. And that's just something that was coming up for me. Those two things, as you were speaking about this, even if we're alone, love is going to be there. And I think, how have you learned to cultivate the love so that you can actually receive it and know that you are loved?

The word I'm hearing right now, and I love that you share this with people, especially for the men who follow you. It's so important. And the word I'm hearing is trust. And when I met my own inner wounded child and did a very similar kind of work and looked into her eyes, she had the stare of a, like, three tours of duty soldier. Wow.

Very traumatized.

PTSD and worse, hopeless, really.

Where do you think that came from? That trauma?

Constant re abandonment. So every time I abandon myself, I abandon that kid. And the way that I've dealt with her pain and her trauma and her need and her insecurity and her desire to have somebody love her is to try to outsource it. Like, I gotta make somebody. I gotta find somebody who's gonna take care of this kid, you know, and I'll do whatever I need to do, you know, physically, sexually, emotionally, like, what do you, whatever you need me to perform so that you step in the role of the caregiver of that child. And so I'm constantly trying to find someone who will take that on because for most of my life, I felt like she was too much for me because she was too insecure, she was too frightened, she was too, you know, and I'm like, here you here, you two. I'm constantly handing her off to people.

And so the adult, you never took care of her?

No, I kept trying to get other people to do it. Wow. You know, and then, and then re, and then recreating the abandonment wound and then recreating the rage at who's got me right. Because constantly being like, damn, I thought that person had me, and they don't. And then getting really angry when people would say, you have to learn how to love yourself. Because I was like, I want someone else to do this. Like, I've been taking care of this kid. I was told from very early childhood, you're on your own, take care of yourself. Like, I don't want to hear that message again. You're on your own. Take care of yourself. I want you take care of me. Like, I'm tired. You do it. And that's a very understandable thing to want. But the problem with that is that I keep setting that kid up to get abandoned again.

Wow.

And until I took full stewardship for her and said, okay, I've got you. Like, what you always needed was an adult for whom you were their 1st, 2nd, last and final priority, right? So you are now my priority. And one of the things, when I had a conversation with my inner child, one of the things she said to me, Washington, I don't trust you because you constantly, you will always abandon me to make everyone in the family feel comfortable. You'll always abandon me to get approval from other people. You'll always abandon me to take care of others. And I was like, kid, you are absolutely right about that.

Wow.

And I'm not asking you to trust me because you shouldn't. And I have done that again and again and again. But I'm asking you to watch me. Like they say to children, like, don't tell them to trust you. Let them see you do things that are trustworthy. We're changing the rules around here. Wow. And every time I set a boundary, every time I don't allow us to be in the room with a toxic or abusive person every time I don't. People, please. Every time I say no and prioritize our self care, that kid is like, oh, wait, you really do have my back.

I believe you more and more like.

You really are my mom, you know? I'm like, yeah, I am.

Gosh, we're in such a similar journey right now. When did this breakthrough start for you? Like, when you started to say, okay, I have to start showing my inner child that I am trustworthy over time. When was that breakthrough?

Like, four years ago I started. I've been in twelve step recovery for a while, but I started going to ACA, adult children of alcoholic and dysfunctional families. And that's what ACA is all about. It's all about reparenting, and it's really traumatizing work. I've never seen anyone go through the ACA twelve steps and work the ACA program where they didn't unleash just everything they never wanted to feel again. All the places, the last place you want to look, the last thing you want to see, the last. It's like, no, I've spent my entire life building a Chernobyl bunker around this to make sure this stuff never, ever comes out. And in that program, it's like, well, we're going to have all that come out, and then we're going to teach you. It's almost like, I think of the ACA work as, like, the way I see it. Like, they talk about the inner child and the inner teenager. So I've got an inner child who I'm constantly reabandoning, and then I've got an inner teenager who's furious at me for constantly re abandoning the child, who wants to act out in all sorts of teenager y ways, who's like, well, I know how to feel better, you know, this substance, this person, this activity, you know?

And, like, so it's reestablishing. I'm learning how to parent a child and a teenager, and essentially, I'm like a deadbeat mom who's, like, bent off, you know, just, like, doing really dumb with, like, a bunch of very unsavory characters and leaving these kids alone. Oh, my gosh. And now I've been, like, reunited with my kids, and I'm like, okay, we're all gonna learn how to be a family now. And it's like, I'm going to the YMCA and taking parenting classes. That's what I feel like ACA is. And learning how to be responsible to myself rather than constantly wanting to outsource that responsibility to somebody else.

Are you diving into a lot of dyswarts of stuff with internal family systems?

Love, love, love him? Yeah, absolutely. And it's painful. And it's painful. It's painful to have these parts who don't trust me, although they do now. And when I do my old tricks of overworking, serving other people more than myself, self abandoning, my teenager shows up and she's like, I can't believe you just said yes to these, and you're not even taking care of us. And I'm like, you're right, you're right. I'm doing it again. I'm still learning how to be a parenthood. Let me cancel some stuff.

You know, like, gosh, man, this sounds really familiar for just what I've been going through, because I think it sounds like for you, has been similar to me, is when you feel not enough or you feel like you've been abandoned, you really want to people please an over people please and change who you are so that other people like you or love you or will be with you. Right.

What do I have to do to get the.

I know, right?

Anything. Anything.

It was one of the most painful things that I've had to learn, which is to say no over the last four years. And it was. It kind of all came at once. I realized this and started the healing journey. I was like, I am doing so many things I don't want to do or that my inner child or teenager doesn't want to do, but I do them because of old patterns and old habits. And it was about a year and a half of me saying no and kind of like, oh, just the emotions of, like, what are they going to think? And people aren't liking me and they're getting upset at me and all these things and just being firm in that where I created my own boundary. And four years ago, I used to get, like, rashes around my body. It was almost like the inner child was screaming at me. And I remember being like, do I have some disease or something? And I got every test, every allergy test. I could do, blood work, sexual disease test. I did everything, and I was clean. And I go, what is wrong? Why am I having these rashes just coming out everywhere?

And right when I started the boundary setting process, it went away. And my therapist, like, this is the child inside of you screaming, trying to get your attention, crawling out of your skin to crawling out of your skin for you to create boundaries for all of you, as weird as this might sound.

Doesn't sound weird to me, Louis.

I know, but for someone watching. What are you talking about? These people inside of you. But, like, the five year old, the eight year old, the 16 year old, that's, like, screaming at me as an adult, like, help us take care of us. Not everyone else.

We need you.

Yeah, don't go. Please. These people please us first. And you might upset people, or they may not like you or wouldn't be your friends, but at least you're friends with all of you first. And I think that was one of the hardest lessons in the last four years, is upsetting and disappointing so many people so hard, and shrinking my friend group to, like, five friends that I hang out with consistently, you know, and just being like, okay, if these people don't understand, I'm gonna have a good intention and do the best I can, but I can't please everyone all the time. Sometimes I can, and I'll show up in certain moments, but not yes, yes, yes. All day long.

Yeah.

And it's been a beautiful, painful, but beautiful and peaceful other side. Then the more I practice it, the better I feel, but it's still not easy.

Can I ask you a question? Have you found that there are some people who, when you say, listen, I have to say no to this because I'm so overextended and I've been getting sick, and I need to rest, and I need to take care of myself, that they're like, I'm so proud of you.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, yeah. Those are your friends.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. You don't take it personally.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm the same thing for, like.

Every time a friend says no, I'm like, yeah, I'm so happy for you.

I know, right? Yeah, yeah. Even, like, here's a good example. You know, the letters of love. Like, that's something I think I agreed to, like, I don't know, six weeks ago, but I was like, oh, man, I've got my event, so I need to make sure that can I get it done before the event? And I was just like, okay, I have to delay this, and I'll do it after the event. And if Liz is upset, then she's upset, but I've got to take care of me. Even to the little thing, you probably think about it, right? But it's like, we've got to make sure we're taking care of ourselves and really communicate yeses and nos and be okay if people are disappointed or not and just be okay. With them being upset.

You know why this becomes a community service? Because for anybody who's like, that just sounds like a very self absorbed way to live. I heard somebody say something recently in a twelve step meeting and I was like, whoa, that is so accurate. The greatest harm that I've ever done to other people was through me not knowing how to take care of myself. Because if I don't take care of myself, a few things are going to happen. I'm going to lose my mind. I'm going to become super needy, super clingy and super manipulative because I'm going to try to get my needs meth through you. And that means I'm going to be objectifying you and using you as a parental replacement. A, like a sex toy, a sleeping pill, an unpaid therapist. You know, whatever the need, this huge yawning need in me, I will, parts of me will go out there and try to get that need met. So either I can figure out how to get that need met, or like that teenager is going to figure out how to get that need met. And all the amends that I've ever had to make to anybody in my life for the grave harm that I brought to them were because I didn't know how to take care of myself, really.

And so I had harmed them, blamed them, used them, manipulated them, tried to force them to be something that they couldn't be, become infuriated and enraged when they couldn't do it, when they couldn't deliver, cheated on them. Because if they couldn't do it, I'm gonna go find somebody else who can, you know, like all of it. And so where self care becomes not so much a sort of new age catch word, but a deeply humanitarian public service is. Byron. Katie said it so well. Nobody is safe from me when I need them that much. Nobody is safe from me. Right. So I actually want, as somebody who loves, genuinely loves humanity, I want to be somebody who people are safe around. And if I'm not taking care of myself, I am an unsafe human being for anybody to be in any relationship with, whether it's a momentary relationship or a romantic relationship.

Yeah. I mean, you've talked publicly about kind of your love life and your relationships and books and, you know, talks and everything. You said you were married and divorced twice.

Mm hmm.

What did you learn after the first marriage into the second marriage?

Nothing. No, that's not true. I was a much better second wife than I was a first wife, really. But, you know, I haven't really learned anything till recently, really, you know, and just repeating patterns 100%. So I've spoken very openly about identifying as a sex and love addict. And I go to a room for that. I go to a twelve step program for that. It took me until I was 50 to find out that there was a room for that. And I spent decades, and I mean, untold thousands of dollars sitting in therapeutic situations with, you know, it wasn't like I wasn't trying to be different. You know what I mean? Like, I was paying a lot of people to try to help me not be, like, the way I am. And no one ever said true sex and love.

Really?

And there's a room for that. There's a twelve step room for that. And here's a phone number. Look, this, you know, go get yourself some help. Because. Because there's so much secrecy around it. Because I think, especially for women, there's a tremendous amount of shame. But my acting out was nuts, Louis. I mean, you mentioned that I was divorced twice, but I actually recently had lunch with my old couples therapist, who's a wonderful, brilliant couples therapist. And I said to him, mark, did you ever have anyone else who was a patient of yours who brought three different people to see you over the years? And he was like, nope. And I was like, and none of them were my husband. Like, none of them were the people I was married to. That was, like, between my marriages that I was bringing, you know? And he was like, yeah, I don't think I have ever had anybody bring in three different relationships and say, please make this work for me. And he said, I have to hand it to you, though, Liz. They were all so different to people.

You were the same.

Yeah. He's like, I really admired the fact that, like. And I was like, yeah, because I was trying to find, what is the formula? Who do I have to connect with that this is going to work? That this great, echoing, God sized hole within me, this deep, unsolvable problem of never feeling like there's enough love. Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Do I need someone older? Do I need someone younger? Do I need a man? Do I need a woman? Do I need someone who loves me more than I love them? Do I need someone who I love more than I do I need two people? Do I need an open marriage? Do I need, like, I want to? And I say this with all love. I'm so proud of myself that I spent 35 uninterrupted years trying to solve that. Like, trying to solve that and being like, why can't I make this work very similar to an alcoholic who's like, well, maybe if I just don't drink hard liquor. Maybe if I just have wine. Maybe if I just have beer. Maybe if I just drink on the weekends. Maybe if I.

You know, it's like I'm trying to figure out how to have this thing, nothing, do what it always does, which is blow up in my face and leave me, like, flat on the bathroom.

Floor, wrecked, depressed and sad and lonely.

Suicidal, if not homicidal. Right? And so it wasn't until I.

So you're looking for people to be the solution, but it wasn't. What was the solution?

The solution is befriending myself and finding a source. Finding what I have always needed, which is a source of infinite, inexhaustible love. And that cannot come from another person. Because sometimes people have to get up and get a sandwich and go to work and, like, go to the DMV and, like, do other things because they're loving to me. You know what I mean? Like, they have other things they need to be doing. They can't. Even if they love me, they can't. Like, a person can't do that. Or they might die, which happened, you know, which happened. Or they. Or, like, they might change or they might have another crisis in their life that they have to attend to, right? And then I'm howling on the outside like a seven year old, like, who's got me? Who's got me? Where did mommy go? Where did daddy go? Am I safe? Why am I on this tundra of loneliness again? Right? So for me, it's about finding a. Finding a source that can keep up with my need and pour infinitely into.

Me that seems impossible on another person.

It is impossible on another person. And, listen, I'll save you all the trouble. I did the research. Like, I went out there and found a lot of people to try to get that from, you know? It didn't work. And it didn't. It works for a while. Like all drugs.

Six months or something.

Yeah. It works till it doesn't. Like every other substance. Every other drug. It works till it doesn't. And then you wake up on Tuesday morning and you're still you, and you're still you, and you're still lonely and you're still overwhelmed and you're still confused and you're still hungry, you know, because this thing can't be filled. So. And I also needed to find a community of people who understood me. And the first time. Well, actually the second time, because I went to a sex and love addicts room once because a friend, 13th stepped me there, like, sent me there. 12th stepped me there and was like, I think you need this. And I went in, and I was like, yeah, these people are really sick, and it's depressing, and I feel bad for them, and I'm gonna be a spectator, and then I'm gonna leave. And then I went out and found another person to blow my life up with. And then I was like, maybe I.

Should go back from the group.

No, no, no. But just from the general population. And then I went back humbled. And the first time I really showed up in that room and said, hi, my name is Lizzie. I'm a sex and love addict. Was the beginning of the end of a 50 year attempt to find somebody, anybody, who would take that pain away.

Oh, my gosh.

And to have a whole bunch of people in the room who don't look like me, who aren't my age, who aren't from my background, be like, yeah, we super get it. And to hear my story being told again and again and again through other people's mouths, I remember hearing this woman say, I took one look at that guy from across the bar, and I was like, I would follow that man to hell. And then I did, and I was like, okay, I know that story. I've been in that story. I've been in that story. I've been on all the sides of these stories and sort of find a community of people who are like, we understand why you're like this, and we'll be your family. As you move through this.

What are the main symptoms of a sex addict or a love addict? Then?

There's different programs for sex addiction. There's different programs for love addiction. Identifies as sex and love addict. A lot of women don't want to use the word sex addict because it sounds gnarly, gnarly and shameful. And it is gnarly, super gnarly, because you're sort of pimping yourself out to get. To trade whatever you have to trade physically to try to get that love connection right. It's like, it's not pretty, but it's what I've done. It also means constantly objectifying yourself, objectifying other people. But if you just google twelve characteristics of sex and love addicts, when I heard those, I was like, oh, that's a twelve for twelve. That's a hard identification with each and every one of these. Like, I've done every single one of these things on the regular, but it essentially comes down to this idea that somebody else is going to be able to fix this on the inside of me. And returning to unhealthy relationships again and again, abandoning your care by attaching to people who are unavailable. There's a whole lot.

Sure, sure. How do you then let's say you go through, you accept that you're a love addict. And maybe someone watching or listening is like, maybe I have some of these tendencies, right? And I heard you talk about in the beginning of this conversation about how, you know, there's this love that you're connecting with every single day and asking it, what would you want of me?

Would you have me know today?

Would you have me know today?

Yeah.

And you have this new relationship with love, but a lot of people feel undeserving of receiving love.

Yeah.

So if you don't feel like you're deserving of having love or being loved or receiving it, how do you have a new relationship with it where you can let it into your life?

For me, it's been about in the same way that those inner children and inner teenagers that we spoke about needed to gradually learn to trust me and needed to gradually learn to see that I do have them and I am prioritizing them and I'm not going to abandon them. And I am here and I am going to say no, and I am going to risk not pleasing people in order to make sure that they're okay. It's almost like I've had to develop. I'll just speak for myself because I think it's probably different for other people, but. And I now am going to introduce the word God. I've had to have that same relationship build very slowly with the God of my own understanding, of believing that I am being loved and not judged, believing that I'm not in trouble. I've spent my entire life terrified of being in trouble. Like, what did I do wrong? I'm in trouble. I'm dead now. Believing that I haven't done anything that has caused God to not love me, and believing that I can turn to that source and be fede and be held and be guided. And I always say this like, I always loved God and I didn't even grow up in a religious family.

Maybe that's why. Because I had my own independent feeling of a God presence when I was a kid that was very organic and natural. Like, I loved the word God. I loved the whole idea. I loved everything about it. I didn't really know what it meant, but I loved it. I've always believed in God I've always loved God. I have never trusted God.

Really?

Cause that's a whole nother layer. It's like, wait, I have to trust you because, I mean, like many of us, because of things that happened to us when we were kids, we don't trust anybody.

Or you just see bad things in the world and you say, how could this be? If God is all love, how do these bad things happen? You'll question that, right?

Exactly. Why do bad things happen to good people? Why did all these terrible things happen to me? Why is there injustice? I mean, we can get trapped forever in that. But I have found when I communicate with God, I've said this many times, and I find it to be true. Why is not a spiritual question. And it does not bring a spiritual answer ever. Like, I can shout why into the cosmos, and I'm never going to get an answer. No one is. But I can ask other questions, like, what do you want me to do? And I will get an answer. Who do you want me to become? I will get an answer. Who do you want me to be around? Like, who are the people who you want me to be around? What do you want me to do next? How do you want me to comport myself through this? I'll get answers to that if I ask God. But I won't get answers to why. I mean, I think that's just the general humility of knowing that my mind can't know. We're not allowed to know why. Sometimes you kind of get a glimpse later where you're like, oh, I see why.

I see why that might have happened. I see why we couldn't have gotten here without that. But I even try to stay away from that. I try to stay out of the why. I have surrendered the why.

That's funny. I still ask my mom why questions, and she says she stopped answering why questions. Yeah, why'd you do this, mom? And she goes, I stopped answering your why questions.

I'm not accepting your question.

I thought I asked me a different question.

Yeah. Come back with a better question. Sometimes God will say that to me. Come back with a better question.

Interesting. What is the best thing you've heard from God over the last four years?

There's a couple things. One thing is, I love this. I hear this from God a lot when I'm sort of unsure about what I'm supposed to do, because that's a thing that I can get really panicky about. Like, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? I will often hear God say, when I've got something for you to do, you'll be notified.

Don't try to rush it or try to know right now.

Like, for instance, I had a couple years there where I didn't have any ideas for a book or creativity or anything to write. And every day in my journal, I would say, am I supposed to be writing something right now? Am I supposed to be working on something? And that universal cosmic voice would say, when we've got something for you to do, you'll be notified. And then I would say, well, what am I supposed to do in the meantime? And the answer would come. Hang out. Just be hang out. And I'm like, well, that's extremely uncomfortable. I would rather that you gave me an assignment. I'm a border collie. I do better with an assignment. Yeah. Like, I mean, but we'll let you know. That's one of my favorites. The other thing I've heard is actually very similar when I've said to God, am I supposed to be dating anybody? Am I supposed to be. Now that I've gotten. Well, now that I've gotten emotional sobriety, now that I've been in twelve step recovery for sex and love addiction, now that I've learned how to take care of myself and been celibate for five years, which is the greatest gift I've given myself.

Wow.

And the first time since, like, way too young an age that somebody hasn't been, like, on me, you know, like, it's been so important for me to, like, reclaim this body and just be like, mine. Right? My body. This isn't like, a tool for anyone else. This isn't a tool for manipulation. This is, like, hours. Like, to find that and to learn how to self comfort, to learn how to regulate my own nervous system. So now that I've done all that, I'm like, am I supposed to be looking for somebody to be with? And my favorite thing that God has ever said to me is the response to that, which is, lol, no.

Wow.

Hard, no, absolutely not. Like, absolutely nothing. And I love that answer, and I trust that answer. And then God says, if I want you with somebody, I will let you know. The idea won't be yours, it'll be mine. I will let you know. I will let you know who it is. You don't have to go hunting. You don't have to go searching. I don't want you chasing anything again. I mean, to me, so much of what all sobriety is is the end of chasing. Like, you're not chasing a feeling anymore. You're not chasing a high. You're not chasing an escape. You're not chasing a person. You're not trying to replicate a way you felt once. Like, that's a big thing for sex and love addicts. Like, stop chasing a feeling feeling, right? It's a feeling you want to have. And all that feeling, if I can get it, I can get it met, but it just leads to craving, because.

Then I want more of it and sadness.

And then I'm like, okay, now what do I have to do to get that right? So God has been really clear with me. Like, I don't want you chasing anybody. I don't want you chasing anything. You're so good right now. What's the big hurry to, like, why are you out there looking for ways to make your life unmanageable again? Like, I can sleep through the night without medication. I don't need to be on antidepressants anymore. I'm not on anti anxiety pills anymore. My body is healthier. My work. I've, like, written three books in the last six years. My friendships have bloomed. All of my family relationships have changed due to these new radical boundaries. Like, I'm prospering and God's like, what's the hurry to tip the apple cart over again?

That's fascinating. You know, when I decided, because it was a choice to get into relationship with Martha, my fiance, and when we got into a relationship, I told her, kind of like, a lot of these things that we're talking about where I was just like, listen, I've never made good decisions in previous relationships, and then I didn't have the courage to get out of them because I was afraid and I didn't want to hurt someone. So I stayed in things that weren't good for me. And, you know, it was just never good. And it doesn't mean they were bad people. We just weren't the right people together. And so I told her, like, I want to take our time. If we're going to do this, we're not going to sleep together. You know, which is not something I'd done in the past. It was, like, kind of quick to rush to that, and that was one of the best things I did for, like, the kids in me.

Yeah.

Was not sleeping with someone that I was dating, like, trying my best to get to know all the parts of her, her family life, her when she's happy, her when she. She's going through a challenge, traveling together, all these different things, as opposed to rushing into chemical bonding right.

Because once the internal pharmacy gets activated, it's like in midsummer night dream when they put magic powder on the person who then falls in love with a donkey. It's like those hormones will make me fall in love with a kitchen cabinet. Anything. I know. And as somebody with a really dysregulated nervous system with a process addiction, I experience those hormones. It's estimated that people like us who have that experience those hormones at ten times the rate of other people. So someone else might feel pleasant experiences with romance and love and connection and sex. I get wasted. I get wasted. And I shouldn't be operating heavy machinery. I shouldn't be making decisions about my bank account. I shouldn't be moving. I go insane. Right. So it's really important, like, what you've done is a really gracious thing for both of you, actually.

Yeah, of course.

To slow that entire process down and try not to go chemical before you find intimacy.

Exactly. And I remember, like, you know, unless we're only three and a half years into this, so it's like we've got a long time ahead with our relationship, with hopefully it's all good and it's all, like, smooth, but there's going to be challenges that we have to face. But I wanted to set myself up for the most harmony possible, knowing that life is going to throw challenges at us individually and together. How can we create a relationship of harmony and peace where we both have nervous systems that are calm.

Right.

Nervous systems that are okay, independent of each other and stronger together? Hopefully. But I'm not reliant on her for my happiness, which I think I never had before. Yeah, I was always reliant on the other people to like me or accept me and people pleasing them. And it feels so freeing to experience for the first time after 20 years of painful relationships, peace and freedom in a relationship. Like, I didn't even. I didn't think it was possible. I didn't know it was possible. And it feels amazing to, at least up in this point, have experienced this for a number of years. So I'm very grateful for that.

I'm so happy for you.

Thank you. Thank you. But I remember thinking to myself, I don't need to be in a relationship. Like, I'm not going to jump in a relationship until I feel that consistently from a dating phase without sexual intimacy. And that was hard. I mean, I'm like, you know, my young guy, it's like, it's hard to say no to those things. But by creating that boundary for me, it's like I built respect for myself and about trust within my nervous system and the parts of me, and it has allowed me to trust myself in the relationship more than ever before.

It's wonderful.

And I feel like it sounds like that's what you've been doing the last five years, is reclaiming trust within yourself that you're not going to abandon yourself. And when you do get into another relationship, you're not going to abandon or people please who you are. And it doesn't mean you're going to be avoidant either. Like, you're going to be securely connected to the person because you're securely connected to you is what it sounds like you're building.

That's the thing. And also for me, as somebody who's now become God centered instead of self centered. And my wants have driven me over cliffs many times. My wants, my needs, my desires, my ideas, big ideas. I get some big ideas, and then it's cut to six months later. Oh, my God, what did you just do to your life? You just drove into another brick wall. So for me, I think you mentioned the word manifesting very early in this conversation, and I'm a good manifesto. You're a good manifesto, too. We're disciplined, we're resolved, we vision board our way into. We're like, get this. I want to make this, I'm going to get this many. I'm less in the realm of romantic and intimate connection. I've manifested like, I've gotten what I wanted. I've gotten who I wanted at times, and it's almost killed me.

Yeah, it didn't work right.

So I'm not that interested anymore in the question of what do I want, but I'm really interested in the question of, like, what's the God's will for my life? Man, I love this, and. And how can I live in alignment with that? I love this. And so I don't even worry about, like, will I ever be with someone again? It's not up to me. I don't really care. Like, I trust when God says, you'll be notified if that's supposed to happen, like, great, I don't have to think about it.

Wow. When did you bring God in your life?

Really? I mean, really, seriously? When I came into twelve step recovery, which was five years ago, five and a half years ago.

Is God in twelve step recovery? Is it more?

Oh, yeah. I mean, high power is high power. It's a spiritual program, because addiction is a spiritual sickness, and it's a deep spiritual emptiness. And addicts like me are people who have such a profound emptiness that we will use anything or anybody to fill it.

You don't have God in your life as, like, the faith or the trust or the. The knowingness of it. Then you find everything else to be your God, I guess, or to fill that void.

I've heard addiction referred to as false worship. It's like, I'm going to worship this thing. I'm going to worship this substance. I'm going to worship this person. I'm going to worship money. I'm going to worship success. I'm going to worship food. I'm going to worship cigarettes. There's this line in that. There's a line in the Bible about false idols, about not worshiping false idols. And it says that people who worship false idols, and they describe them as wooden creatures with lifeless eyes. It's like, what an idol is. You worship that, and then you become that. You become sort of wooden and lifeless. I'm not a fundamentalist Bible reader, but I think that's a really accurate description of what addicts become. You become sort of wooden and lifeless, and the God sized hole is what it's referred to, can only be filled with God.

Wow. Do you feel a lot more peace now with God in your life?

Yeah, I mean, it is my life. And I had this great experience in step three, which has made a decision to turn our will and our life over to the God of our own understanding. The beautiful, generous thing about that language is the God of your own understanding. It doesn't necessarily mean the God that you were raised with or threatened with. And I had a sponsor who said to me, write down what you're looking for in a God. Nobody will ever surrender their life over to a God who was forced upon them. So write down the qualities that a deity would have to have for you to surrender your life completely happily over to them. And I was like, you get to do that. And she's like, of course you get to do that. Because why would a loving God not appear in whatever form you need? Right? Like, of course. And it was such a fun assignment because I was like, the very first thing was like, my God has to have a sense of humor. My God has to have a sense of humor and think that I'm adorable and funny and that my failures are adorable and funny.

I can't have a judgmental goddess. I can't have a punishing God. I have to have an incredibly patient God. I have to have a God who doesn't have anywhere better to be than sitting with me in the middle of the night, present and comforting. Like, I need a God who doesn't have office hours. I need a God who doesn't stand on ceremony and need me to prostate in a certain particular way. I can't have an insecure God. Like, I can't have a God who's like, if you don't, like, pray to me in this certain way, I'm not gonna feel right. You know? Like, I need to have, like, an abundant God, a generous God, a loving God who knows me and who likes me. There's. I wish I could remember who said this, but somebody said that the true feeling of being one with God is relaxing completely in the presence of somebody who, you know, is deeply fond of you. And if people had been taught that in childhood, that that's what God presence feels like. Relaxing completely in the presence of somebody who, you know, is very fond of you.

Yeah. Not being afraid constantly.

Oh, my God. Instead of what James Joyce called the hangman God, you know, the judge, the executioner, you know, this. Like, of course I created you. I love you, you know, like, I made you the way you are.

This is fascinating. How many. How many relationships do you feel like you've been in, in the past? Like, intimate relationships, whether it be, like, dating or I sexual or.

Oh, like 40.

40? Okay.

You know, like 45, maybe 45. I was trying to remember because I had to inventory it when I was. It's part of, like, the sex and love addict recovery.

Good.

Mm hmm.

So 40, 45 intimate, loving relationships.

Sure. Sexual into 45 deeply intimate relationships.

How many. How many of these relationships?

Myself.

That's good. Yeah. No judgment here. I mean.

No, I don't feel it.

How many of the relationships you've been in had God at the core of the center?

None.

How many are we gonna. In the future, do you feel like God will be in the relationship in some way?

If God's not in the relationship? It's not a relationship.

Wow.

You know, and I heard a prayer recently in one of the twelve step rooms. And this is about every relationship, you know, not just sexual and intimate, but somebody said, dear God, please only bring me relationships where you can be first and I can be me.

Oh, man, that's good. Say that one more time so I can.

Dear God, please only bring me relationships where you can be first and I can be me.

Man, that gives me the chills.

I know. It's my chill.

Imagine every relationship in your life like that. Friends, family, you know, intimate relationships. Yeah, that's. That's a beautiful life, isn't it? With every relationship like that, because then you're not feeling judged or you don't have to. People, please. You don't have to impress, you know, obviously, you got to create boundaries, and you have to communicate and you have to, you know, stand up for yourself, but you don't have to worry about what happens when God is at the center.

Yeah.

God is going to have your back no matter what.

And their back.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, to know that they also have their own higher power. Right. I mean, I got super high off of becoming other people's higher power as much as I got super high off making somebody my higher power. It's like, oh, let me be the thing you worship. Right? Like, that's it. That's a rush. Big rush, right?

Until you crash, until you get deep.

Pedestalized, and then you don't even want to be in the room when that happens. I mean, like, that's. That's such a terrible crash for everybody. The terrible disappointment of that. I say this to my sponsors a lot. If they idealize me at all, I'm like, okay, I just want to point out that language sounds a little bit idealizing. Please don't do that to me or you, because when you inevitably discover that I am not this ideal, I don't even want to be in the room when that statue comes crashing. Right. Like, that's gonna be really bad for both of us. So, like, just don't. Don't do that. Like, let's don't do that.

Wow. This is fascinating. So, I mean, can you share what it was like being in a relationship with someone that then you're so deeply in love with, or you or whatever you feel like is love at that time.

I don't know.

If you look back and if you feel like that's real love or love addiction, we can get into that later. But you're deep in a relationship. You've poured your heart into someone, your life into someone that then passes away. Can you share what that experience was like? Because I can't even imagine. But how did you navigate that? And what was the lesson that opened up for you once you got to reflect on it?

So, yeah, you knew Rhea. And so Rhea was my best friend for many, many years while I was married to somebody else. And while I was married to somebody else, I fell in love with my best friend. And slowly, over many, many, many years. And I won't get into the reasons why. Actually, I will. I mean, the primary reason was, over time, she became the only person in the world who, when I was with her, I felt completely safe. And I had never felt safe in the world. And she was so good and strong at handling people and dealing. Like, I had this deep fear of people's insanity, and Rhea could just handle it.

She kind of protected you.

Yeah. I kind of walked into every room behind her. Cause I was like, whatever goes down, she's got it. She's got it. She's not afraid of anybody. She'll say the thing that needs to be said. She'll set the boundary that needs to be set. So I was like a little kid kind of behind her, and that feeling that she could provide for me, of security, was so beautiful. Then she was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic and liver cancer and given six months to live. And at that point, it was no longer possible for me to continue to pretend that I wasn't in love with her. And I came to my then husband and said, I'm in love with Ray. And he was like, you've always been in love with Ray. I mean, he knew me so well. He was like, you've been in love with Ray for so long, honey.

And how long were you guys married for?

Twelve years.

Twelve years? Yeah.

He was like, you need to go be with her.

So he kind of gave you that. That blessing.

Yeah.

He wasn't upset. He wasn't mad. He wasn't.

She was very upset, you know, but like. And hurt, you know, but like her.

But not a you.

No. And hurt, you know, but also, he was a wise soul and, you know, he wasn't in an argument against reality, and it was true. I had to go and be with her.

Was it? Were you not upset that he wasn't, like, fighting for you guys or saying, like, this is not okay?

No, I was deeply, I'm gonna fight for us. Moved by his compassion and his courage.

It'S also hard to. If someone's, like, essentially saying, I don't love you this way anymore, I love this other person. It's hard for someone to be like, please love me. You know? He probably had some self respect to.

Say, he had way too much self respect.

That's painful and hurtful.

Yeah. He had way too much dignity to.

Get you to love me back. That's not going to work.

No.

So he was like, he let it go.

Yeah. And I'm so grateful for that, and I have great respect for him. And then I went to go be with her, and we had six months.

To be together, and she really only had six months.

She ended up having a year and a half. But they had told her she would have six months, and we both knew that our time together was going to be very short. There was something incredibly intoxicating about that.

Every day is a rush.

I mean, if you live at the extreme levels of emotion that I've always lived, I mean, this is high. It's like, okay, there are no consequences, there are no tomorrows. Let's do whatever we want. Let's spend all our money. I always say Rhea was the one who had been given six months to live, but I acted like I also had been given six months to live. I was like, I don't give a about anything that happens in the future. Ride or die. Let's just, like, blaze out right to the end. There's no reason to hold back on anything. I mean, it was incredibly exciting in a way, and. And sort of thrilling. We're like, let's make art. Let's go on all these bucket, like, bucket list trips. Let's eat everything we want to eat. Let's blow up everybody. We don't about, like, let's. You know, like, there was something that was really wild about it, and that wildness was pretty out of control and very exciting and wasn't. How can I word this? Because it was perfect how it turned out, because it had to go that way. But Rhea was a recovered heroin and cocaine addict who had been in recovery for twelve years and then had decided, much to her own danger and detriment, that she wasn't an addict anymore and left the rooms of recovery.

She was like, I'm cured. And we know that addiction can't be lifelong journey and that addiction never ends. It only waits.

Waits till you give in.

Just waits, waits for its moment. It just waits. And so she just got kind of full of herself and was like, I, you know, I beat this thing. I'm going to start drinking again. I'm going to do other kinds of drugs. And like, she. And then once she got really deep in the pain of the cancer and the fear of the cancer, she went fully back to being an opioid and cocaine addict.

Oh, man, that's tough.

And as one of her relatives said, I wish Raya was a nicer drug addict. Oh, man. She was not a particularly nice drug addict.

Wow.

And she mean to you too? Vicious. And then just the darkness arose and so our sort of like, let's just ride or die into the sunset love story was not turned into Sid and Nancy and, I mean, it was just ugly. It just got very ugly and very destructive. And I was lost in my codependency and my love addiction and my people pleasing. And, like, here, I'll go take tens of thousands of dollars out of my bank account so you can buy all the cocaine you need, because I love you. Like, just so degraded. Whatever love we had became very degraded. But what I want to make clear and what I learned from that, we did that together. And that's what codependency does. It's like, this isn't a story about how somebody did a bad thing to me. This is a story about how two people who were unhealed addicts came together and lost their minds.

Wow.

And God let her live long enough for that to happen. Because if she had died right away during the hot, blazing, beautiful, exotic, erotic. Like, let's, like, burn out together in a. Like, a comet shooting through earth, I'd be like, that was the greatest love story ever told. And God was like, I'm gonna let her live another year, and I'm gonna let you guys go on this other journey that you were not expecting.

Damn.

Yeah. And so it was brutal. So to answer your question, what is it like to have the person you love the most in the world die? I lost her. Before she died, I lost her to drug addiction, which actually made cancer look like a day at the beach, you know, like. And I lost myself in that before she died. So I lost both of us. I lost me and I lost her. And so it's like the death was almost an afterthought to the great loss of both of us to our own unhealed trauma.

What's the biggest lesson you learned from that? Afterwards, like, a year or two later, when you were able to reflect and have space took a little more than.

A year, five, seven years maybe. I was like, let me find someone else to do this with. You know, like, because I was not rushed. It was, you know, like, let me. Who can I fill? Who can I replace her with?

I guess now, if you're looking back, if you could have a, you know, what's the biggest lesson now? And also two questions.

Sorry.

What if you could give wisdom to yourself before choosing to get in a relationship and just give yourself some wisdom to that younger you, what would you have said?

Nothing she would have been able to hear.

I understand, but if you, you know.

So it's more how I would speak to myself now. So the way I felt at the end of that relationship was so far away from myself, and I had abandoned myself so completely into that story. And what that ends up doing only always is making you feel like you've been abandoned. So for a long time, the pain I had, Washington, an anger and a pain of, like, she abandoned me. Like, she chose cocaine and opioids over me. We had this very short period of time together, and she chose to go back to her drug rather than being present to me. She took herself away from me, and she left me in the cold. I don't see it that way now.

That's good.

I see somebody who was an excruciating existential and physical pain and who turned to the thing that had always taken their pain away. And the only thing that had ever taken her pain away at that level was opioids and cocaine. And it's like that's what she needed to do. I mean, I remember Raya telling me back when she was sober, and I always think about this with addicts. She said I needed every gram of heroin I ever took her. I would not have survived the world. I was in so much pain. Like, people who drink need every drop of alcohol they ever imbibed, or they were not going to make it. I needed every one of those 45 deeply intimate partners.

Yeah, loving it.

Partners in relationships. I would not have made it like, I was in so much pain. I would not have made it right. So I don't see somebody who abandoned me. I see somebody who is trying not to be in pain. And I also was trying not to be in pain. And I love something I always refer to. Byron, Katie. I know you love her, too.

She's great.

But I love something she says. Adults cannot be abandoned. Only children can be abandoned. Adults can only abandon themselves. So anytime as an adult that I feel abandoned, I have abandoned myself. And so the lesson coming out of that, well, first of all, the lesson is I'm a love addict, and I need a program, and I need a fellowship, and I need a higher power, and I need a sponsor, and I need a sisterhood in my recovery program, and I need a daily spiritual practice, and I need that to be, they always say in other rooms of sobriety, anything you put before your sobriety, you'll lose. So I need staying emotionally sober to be the single most important thing in my life. Like, that's my job, everything else. Being a writer is a part time job, like staying emotionally sober within a community. And a fellowship of people who help keep me emotionally sober is my full time job, and that's going to be my full time job for the rest of my life. That's my public service, and it's my service to myself.

That's interesting. I interviewed a brain surgeon who'd done a thousand brain surgeries, and he also has a PhD in neuroscience. So he studies the mind and the matter in the brain. And I was like, what's the number one skill that every human being should learn to master that'll help them forever? He said, emotional regulation. And it sounds like learning how to regulate emotions and connect it to a higher power and making that the forefront of your life will help you in almost every situation, as opposed to reaching for substances or numbing addictions to help you fill a void that you might have inside of you. Do you feel like, did Rhea have God in her life when she met you?

Yeah, when I met her, she was, like, deep in her recovery. But she and I and every other addict in the world have very powerful egos, and Rhea had a let it slip, peculiarly strong sense of her own amazingness. And it was extremely convincing because she actually was really amazing and she was really powerful and she was really charismatic and dynamic. And the first person we fool is addicts as ourselves. And so she had this front of mightiness and she kind of was the alpha predator in every room she walked into. I mean, I loved that about her and she loved that about her. But that's a kind of fragile landscape upon which to build your home is your own awesomeness.

And God will humble you pretty quickly.

Pretty quick. Pretty quick. And so she kind of replaced God with Rhea, and I replaced God with Rhea. And I needed a God in human form, and I made Rhea into my God. And she must have needed an acolyte because she took me on as her worshiper. And for a while that worked, and we both got really high off it. And then it did what all drugs did stopped working.

I'm sure you've had many. I don't assume, but I like to think that you probably had many writing sessions where you've reflected on her and your time with her. Maybe you've had conversations with her or not spiritually, but what if you're willing to share? Would you say to her now, if she's listening, we're so good, babe.

We're so good. You know, like, man, we went for a ride together and we're so good, you know? Like, that's the thing. Like, underneath all the dysfunction, there was this real friendship and this real love. And Martha Beck always says that true love always liberates the beloved. It's the only thing that true love wants, is for the beloved to be free for everybody to be free. Like, our souls, unhindered by ego, only want one thing for ourselves and each other, and that is liberation. It's the only thing we want. And if I could be said to want anything for Rhea seven years after she's dead, because relationships don't end when people die. We had a lot of healing to do after she died, like, including some conversations where I was like, you don't get to just float off into the ether and, like, become music. We have some to work out. I'm still here. Like, you know, like, we have some stuff to work out and, like, we've worked it out, like, we've worked it out in various ways. But if I could be said to want anything for Rhea, it's that she be free, you know, that death actually be a liberation that she be.

That she be free, that she not have to stick around and take care of me, you know? And that, you know, something that I've heard her say to me recently when I feel her is like, I know you want me to say that I'm always here for you, but you actually don't need me. And that's great news, you know, like, I used to need you to need me, but she used to say to me, I'm not gonna die till I see you standing on your own feet in every situation in your life. And, like, she wanted, like, her higher self really wanted that for me. As much as her codependent self wanted me to worship her, her higher self wanted. I just want you to be free.

But the ego is loud, very deafening.

I want you to be free, but I also want you to worship me, love me, and I want you to not replace me. And I want you to never let you know. And it's all that, never leave me. Right? But the true, unfettered free soul only. Only wants everybody to be free. What else could it want to, you know?

What do you feel like is the biggest lesson you need to learn over the next decade of your life?

How to not throw it all away.

Throw what away?

My life. I'm always looking. My addict, my inner addict is always looking for an opportunity to throw myself away. I want to throw away my money to somebody. I want to throw away my time. I want to throw away my creativity. I want. I want to put somebody else at the center of my life. I've heard it said in the codependent recovery rooms. Codependency is like the other person first, you second, God last. Wow. And recovery is God first, me second. The other person gets whatever's left over. It doesn't mean they're last. It just means, like, that whole paradigm of, like, what we call romantic love when we're obsessed and infatuated with somebody and we want to hear them say, you are the center of my life. You are my everything, right? Is actually, turns out to not actually be that healthy, toxic.

You know, it's interesting, before I forget. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because when I entered my relationship with Martha and my fiance, after a few months of us dating and not being exclusively committed to each other, she asked me a question. I've shared this before on my show, but she asked me a question. It's the old what are your priorities in life? Question that every girl I feel like asks a boy at some point. Like, what are your priorities in life? What do you really want? You know? And I remember thinking, this might be our last day hanging out because I'm going to tell her the truth, and she's not going to like it because everyone I've talked to in the past didn't like it. They either screamed or got sad or cried or emotional. And then I kind of, like, gave in because I wanted to. People, please.

You're like, oh, never mind. You're.

And I said, are you sure you want me to tell you the truth?

Right?

Because in the beginning of the relationship, when we first started hanging out, I made a promise to myself that I'm going to tell her the truth about everything. Like past visions for the future. Like, all the parts of me want to tell you the truth. Things I'm working on, things I'm not proud of, things I'm ashamed of. All of it, right? And if you ask me the question, I'm going to tell you the answer, and I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. And you can either take it or leave it. You may not like it, but you get to either accept it or not. And so she said, what are your priorities in life? And I said, I don't know if we're going to be, you know, hanging out together after this. Are you sure you really want the truth? She said, yes, I get okay, because no one's been able to accept it, but I'm going to tell you, and I said, you'll never be my number one priority. And it's just saying it even now. It's like, have a reaction to it because I'm like, am I going to mess, hurt someone when I say this?

But I said, you're my number one priority. I can't really look at a woman in the face and say, I feel like I'm going to scream that, how dare you not put me first strikes?

And, like, the gods of romantic comedies.

Come in like, but I was like, you'll never be number one priority for me. And no woman wants to hear that from a man they're dating. They just don't want to hear that. Most women, I should say, right? They don't want to hear that. And she's like, okay, I go, but let me finish. And I go, you'll not be my number two priority.

It gets worse.

And I go, number one was to be number one or number two? I said, I said my number one priority in life is my health, my overall health. Because if I'm not emotionally, spiritually, physically healthy, I'm not going to be good for my number two priority, which is my mission from God, is what I feel called to do on this earth for this season of life or every season of life, whatever that is. In this season, I feel called to impact a lot of people with my. With my message, with my content, with what I'm creating in the world. And if I'm not able to fully pursue my mission that I feel called by God to do, that's inside of me, speaking to me, I'm going to be very unhappy. I'm going to be resentful. I'm going to be frustrated, and I'm not going to be a great partner. I'm just not. I'm going to be a shell of myself, limited and really pissed off at myself, at you, you know, God, whatever it is, the situation. And so number two needs to be my mission and my ability to serve. That means you've got to be respecting in my time when I need to go to the gym and take care of my health or if I need to go to therapy, like, whatever it is and my work, you got to be respecting of that time.

The third priority would be my relationship with you. You know, if we're together, it'll be my relationship and my marriage and my family, your relationships. And I tell you what, though, if you fully accept that where my health is my priority, and I want this for you, too, but my health is my priority. Number one, spiritual, physical, emotional. My mission, by God, is number two. You're gonna feel like that I'm more on priority because I'm gonna give you all of me. Like, when I'm with you, I'm present, I'm gonna be thinking about you. I'm gonna be speaking about you. I'm gonna be building for us. And it's not like I'm gonna neglect you and never be around. Like, you're gonna feel my presence, my energy, my love, because I'm gonna miss so much gratitude for you, so much appreciation. Every night, I'm gonna speak gratitude into your soul, and every night, I tell her what I'm grateful for, and it's her and other things as well, but she feels those things. And if you ask her today, do you feel like you're a third priority? She's gonna say, no. I feel like he puts me at the center, and I think it took me a while to be able to say that confidently and not be worried about, like, losing someone but really owning that truth.

And it's not easy to say, like, you would never say this on a rom.com. and the funny thing is, she's done 40 romantic comedies. She's a big actress in Mexico, and, you know, very famous in Mexico. She was the queen of romantic comedies. So she had to unlearn this herself in her own life. But it's what's allowed for peace and harmony in the relationship. And again, I say this as a caveat. We're not married. We don't have kids yet, so everyone's always like, well, wait till you have kids and you're married.

But I'm like, why do people want to instantly knock you off?

I don't know.

People want to say that it's going to get worse because they.

They're like, when you have. But I'm like, I'm busy building a foundation.

You're building something that when you introduce the children, it'll be a beautiful home, hopefully.

Yeah, that's the goal. And we started the relationship in therapy because I said, I don't want to enter a committed relationship.

Just keep a therapist on, you know, 100%.

And we, you know, not because there was something wrong, because I wanted to create agreements from the beginning, and I want to make sure we're aligned with our values, because every relationship I'd had before ended in therapy, right. When there was too much, it was.

Already too late, and it was too much.

I want to start it and then end it quickly if we're not meant for each other.

Right.

And try to create alignment and agreements, it's wonderful. And so, again, it doesn't mean it's, like, this perfect thing, but I feel harmonious, consistent.

It's a very good start, and it's a very good foundation.

Foundation, yes. I'm very grateful for that.

And you found in it, you said, it took years to be able to say that, but it also took you years to find the person who could.

Hear it, who could receive it.

It. Yeah.

And not take offense to it.

Yeah.

And this is a very.

I think that would make me feel incredibly secure if somebody said that.

Why, Liz, you're not gonna be my number one priority and you're not gonna be number two.

Well, if they just said that, right, they give you context. And if they were like, my car is my number one priority.

No, but if they said, listen, I want to be the best version of me, my health. I want it to be as the center.

Right.

Or if they said, God first, the.

Introduction of a higher power, that would make me feel very secure. You know, I think, like, one of the questions that I've heard people say is a really good question. Ask somebody when you're in relationship is, like, what do you turn to when you're shattered? Like, what do you turn to?

And before, it used to be what people or drugs or alcohol, whatever it.

Is, like, what do you do to come? Like, what do you do when you're broken? Where do you go? It's a really important question because you're going to get shot.

It's a great question.

You're gonna get shattered. Like, life is gonna. Life is in session. Earth school is happening. Like, the curriculum is hard, and there are gonna be things that happen. So, like, I wanna know, is it me you're gonna turn to? Because then I'm probably gonna get shattered with you. Right? Are you gonna turn, like, what do you turn to? Do you isolate? Do you go to rage? Do you go to God? Do you go inward? Do you try to work harder and achieve more and gather more stuff? Like, what is. What is it?

Yeah, that's really interesting. And I haven't asked Martha that, but I think innately, because I've seen her, the thing that makes me feel really safe with her in this relationship is something that she does really smart, I think, at least for my personality type. She doesn't bring every challenge or problem to me right away. She's got her mom, her sister, her girlfriends, her therapist. She's got a community of, like, women or her father. She's got a community of people that she'll also speak with and not put everything on me right away. Sometimes she'll come to me right away, but a lot of times, if she's feeling something, she'll talk with her girlfriend first. That usually like, okay, I feel good. Or she'll talk to her sister or her mom or her therapist, and then she'll bring it to me.

It's a good sign that she's a person who has a community. It's really nice because one of the things that love addicts get high on is meeting somebody who's got no one and becoming their everything.

Or having them get rid of all their friends.

Yeah. Or isolating them away from all that. Like, I will become your world. Right. It's a really wonderful thing. I also have heard it said, and this is a thing that I think is really good for women to hear. Everything that I ever thought I had to get from one man, I now know that I can only get from a community of women.

You can't expect it with one person. It's what Esther Perel says. We expect our romantic relationships to give us everything a community used to give us. It's impossible.

Yeah.

How can you put that on someone you know or expect that from yourself, from that person? It's like, yeah, it's exhausting. Yeah, exhausting.

Exhausting. And it's gonna leave you hungry and angry. Like, angry hangry. It's gonna make you hangry. Emotionally hangry.

Wow.

Yeah.

This has been really beautiful. I'm gonna ask a few more questions, and we'll wrap things up. What is love speaking to you right now?

Take a break. I've been working really hard. I mean, I know how to work hard, and I've been working hard my whole life, but that's what I've been hearing is plan a really big break. Like, a big pause. And I had a chest infection recently that lasted for almost eight weeks. And every year recently, I've been getting, like, a bad chest infection. And a friend of mine who's a great healer was like, did you get quiet and ask your lungs what they need? You know? And when I got quiet and asked my lungs what they need, they said, we need you. Like, we need you. Like, you've been spreading yourself a little too thin. And so I've been learning how to ask for support and help in ways that I've never done before. Like, okay, this is such a dumb. This is such a dumb aca thing to be proud of. But, like, I have been crowingly proud for years that I don't have a personal assistant. Like, growingly proud, you know? Like, when people write to me and they're like, can your team get to us? I'm like, like, I am my team. You know?

Like, I don't have a team. I don't need a team. I don't have a p. I don't have a Pa. Like, I do. I do speaking events, and they're like, we'll give you two business class tickets for you and your assistant. I'm like, I can carry my own suitcase. I can book my own hotel room. I don't need somebody to get me coffee. I don't need any help. Like, I don't need any help. Like, this is the flip side of the codependency. And the addiction to I need you to save me is I don't need anybody.

Wow.

Right? Like, I don't need anybody.

Extremes.

Total extremes. Like, you know? And that comes from a way of being raised in a system where you better not need anybody. Like, because they're just gonna tell you, take care of yourself, right? So it's like, this huge pride that, like, I don't need anybody. And just very recently, I was like, I'm 55. I think I've proven, like, I've proven that I don't need anybody now. I think I need a. I need some help. It would be nice. And, like, I didn't even know how to use an assist. Like, I don't even know how to ask for that. But my friend Suleika Jawad, who wrote between two kingdoms and is so extraordinary, actually helped me find somebody. And then she was like, I was like, I don't know how to have. I also, like, what do I.

How do I unlearn?

Like, I don't know, you know? And she was like, write down every single thing you have to do this week and then ask her to do.

Those and don't do it yourself.

And I was like, go to the post office. You can have somebody do that for you. So it's just been this new learning of, like, can you go pick this thing up for me? It's crazy. Like, I've never. I've never done that. And it's crazy for me to have been moving through the world at the level that I've been moving through the world and not have it. It's insane. But, like, it's such a. It's such a prideful. Like, I can do everything myself. I can carry it all on my own shoulders. It's ridiculous. So I'm looking for more places where I can ask other people to help me. That's good. Rather than proving that I'm an olympian.

How can I help you?

Aw, Lewis, come on. Letters from love.

I'm going to. Yes, it's happening. I'm excited.

Yeah. Come on. Letters from love. And the reason. And it's actually not just helping me. So I do this project with my beloved friend Margaret Cordy, and we're not going to embarrass her by telling everybody that she's in the room, but she's in the room. And Margaret and I have been friends since college and we created this whole sub stack thing together. And every week we ask a special guest to come on and take the risk because it's an incredibly vulnerable thing for people to do, to dare to take this, like, thought exercise, spiritual exercise, trauma exercise of asking unconditional love, what would you have me now? And it hasn't necessarily been easy to find men who will do it.

Oh, I'm in.

And that's why you're so great, is because you actually, like, there's been a number of men who we've asked to do it and they're like, I don't feel safe or comfortable doing it.

They said no. They just said, I'm not ready for this.

They said no. And one that I found really interesting was he said something, I don't want to out him. He's somebody who I love so much, but he was like, I feel like I already know what unconditional love would say to me. Unconditional love would say to me, like, you're lovable just the way you are. And I don't want to hear that because I'm afraid it'll take away my motivation to be better. And I was like, who hurt you, sweetie? Why do you think that you can't be unconditionally loved and also still strive.

To be better, pursue things?

In fact, maybe knowing that you are loved is the soft landing place that you can live in. And from there, it's a place you can go back to, to rest. Those letters that I write to myself from love are my home. You know, I go out there in the world and I strive and I try and I, you know, like, I work so hard on myself and I work so hard on my work and I, and I try to be a really good person and I try to serve the world and, like, I work so hard. And then I come home to these letters where love says, like, my beloved, just come. Come home and rest. Yeah.

You know, it's interesting that that person said that to you because I think a lot of, a lot of people, not just men, but a lot of people can understand that feeling of, like, well, if I love and accept myself, do I just give up?

Where's the fire?

And I'm not driven anymore, right? And I'm not that's gonna take my edge off of me or won't be as competitive or driven to succeed, and then I'll get complacent. And. And I can relate to that because for most of my life, I was driven to prove people wrong or to prove people that I wasn't, you know, what they thought I was when I was younger or something. To prove the bully's wrong or whatever it might be, right. And I'm gonna get bigger, faster, stronger, you know, more successful to prove you wrong. That did nothing good for me. Like, it helped me achieve, but it didn't make me feel better. Once I did maybe for a day, but then I was almost angrier. I was like, why am I not feeling better?

Right?

I need a bigger goal to go conquer.

Right?

Like, I don't know if you can relate to that, but. And I think learning to this has worked for me, learning to be on the healing journey and say, okay, I feel more peace than ever. And because I have energy, it's more sustainable, it's more renewable, it doesn't burn out as quickly. When I'm driven by, like, anger and, like, pride and proving people wrong. Yeah, I feel like I can serve at deeper levels, and I feel like I can because I'm doing it out of love and collaboration, not competition and proving God right versus proving others wrong.

Proving God right. I love that.

You know what I mean? It's like, okay, of course I have a mission to get up for today. And, like, of course I'm gonna go the extra mile. Of course I'm gonna serve bigger and better however I can. Of course I'm gonna endure what I need to endure in the season. And I'm gonna go home and rest, and I'm gonna listen to my chest when it's telling me you need to take two weeks off or you need to take two years off or two months off, whatever it is, and you need to slow down. And I think it's being able to listen at all times of what you need. It's like it's now the time to push, or is now the time to rest? It sounds like you're in that season of listening and needing to rest or do something else.

Yeah, a little less.

What is that? How can I support you in staying accountable for whatever that looks like for you? Oh, God, what does that look like for you? To rest or to do less?

You know what I'm gonna send you? Cause you're my friend. I'm gonna send you the dates that I have already set aside perfect. In the year of our lord, 2025.

Okay.

When I'm gonna take a six month sabbatical, and I'm not gonna do any teaching. I'm not gonna do any speaking events. I'll keep the letters from love going. Cause that's actually my spiritual space. I'm not gonna write. I'm not gonna start a new book. I'm going to stop.

Perfect.

And I'm gonna send you those dates.

I promise.

Absolutely.

Okay, good.

I'm gonna hold you accountable. I love that. That's such a great question. I love asking, like, how can I serve this aspiration? Yeah, yeah. Gonna take six months, and I'm gonna not produce, achieve, aspire.

That's great.

Yeah.

That's greatness for me in this season of your life. I'm so happy that you're doing that, because I. I'm grateful you're doing this, because I know when you feel kind of stretched thin and, like, committing to something like this last minute, I appreciate you coming on here. I think it's gonna serve and help a lot of people. So hopefully, this is energy giving. Louis, I'm not stretching you.

You are a banquet of a human being.

Thank you.

And I always come away from being with you feeling fed and nourished and seen, and this did not take energy. This gave energy.

I'm glad. I'm glad we're here to serve people together. So I'm grateful for you, and I'll wrap it with this. I want to acknowledge you, Liz, for the journey you've been on, because I think people have seen the side of you for a long time of your success, of eat bread love, and all the millions of copies of books and master speaker, and all the success of you. And I'm so grateful that you are starting to reveal the parts of you, of what you've been struggling with at an even deeper level. You did this before, but you're doing it at a deeper level, where I feel like it's feeding your soul. And you're not worried about what people think about you. Not that you did before, but I feel like this is what you're doing now, and how you're serving with the letters that you're doing is just really valuable. And I'm grateful for you, and I acknowledge you for the gift that you've been giving yourself continually over these last five years to be of support and service to you so that you can serve the way you need to at this season of your life on what God wants you to serve.

Thanks, Lord.

So I'm really grateful that you're doing this journey. I'm grateful that you're allowing support in your life and you're allowing a team around you as opposed to doing it all yourself. I think that's amazing. And I'm grateful because you get to rest and you also get to inspire and empower other people and provide opportunities for other people to be with you. So I think it's amazing. And how can we follow the letters? How can we sign up for it.

And be a part of it? So if you go to substack or if you just Google Elizabeth Gilbert substack or Elizabeth Gilbert letters from love, it'll take you there. And for some people it's a new technology, but it's just like, it's just like essentially you're just signing up for a newsletter and come and sign up and be part of this community. I also just want to say that that community. I have a friend named Doctor Stephanie Covington, who's an expert on women's addiction and recovery. She wrote a women's guide through the twelve steps. She's a very reputable expert in the psychological field. And she said, and that community is the kindest corner of the Internet. And the support that the people in that community are giving to one another as they share this incredible, vulnerable work of daring to believe that something might love them and listening for that voice and downloading those messages and then letting it be seen, there's a tenderness. I mean, it's been 13 months. We haven't had one person bring any negativity into that space, which is astonishing in this age. You know, people are showing up with truly undefended hearts and we're reversing a terrible cultural paradigm of self hatred, perfectionism and scarcity and turning it into self friendliness and acceptance and community love.

That's beautiful. Is there a specific website to, like, directs it to them? Or just go to substack and Google or search substack.com.

Letters from Elizabeth Gilbert. I don't even know. Whatever. Well, maybe we can put a link on the thing, but I don't. I don't even know.

You don't know? People just find it.

Google Elizabeth Gilbert substat.

It'll be up there.

It'll take you right to it.

Two final questions for you. This one, I think I asked you this. When's the last time you were on? Like seven years ago. Eight years ago.

Isn't that crazy?

Crazy to me. Is that long ago? I think it was, yeah, I'm pretty sure I asked you this question last time. But it may be different now. This is a hypothetical question I asked everyone at the end of a conversation. It's called the three truths. So imagine, hypothetically, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on this earth. And you get to. From this moment until then, you get to accomplish or live however you want. Accomplish all your dreams. Everything comes true that you want. And for whatever reason, on the last day, you have to take everything with you. All of your content books, substack letters, this conversation, everything is gone, hypothetically. But, you know, you get to leave behind three truths. And this is all we have to remember you by, are these three lessons that you've learned from everything you've learned. What would be those three truths for you?

It's a friendly universe. Transformation is possible. And this is Earth school.

Yeah, that's good. Okay, final question. What is your definition of greatness?

Trust. Trusting that going back to this is a friendly universe. Trusting that we are not alone, that our lives are not accidents, that God doesn't make trash. And that you're here because you're wanted to be here. And you're wanted and loved and chosen. No matter what your family of origin might have said, no matter what your culture might have said, no matter what the people who left you might have said, no matter what your failures and your addictions might have said, you are wanted here. You are wanted here. We want you here. That's what I hear the universe say. We want you here. We love you here. And we want you to know that. That there is no deep cosmic silence. There's just 10,000 angels saying, we want you here. We love you here. It's important that you existed and we want you to stay.

Yeah. You're amazing. Appreciate you. Love you. Thank you very much.

Love you.

Amazing.

Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review, I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.