Transcript of The Best of SBS: NBA Coaching Legends

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Welcome to South Beach Sessions. The smile on my face, you haven't seen it that much, but we've got an old friend in the house.

He's old and a friend, and he's also an old friend. And I want to make him comfortable because these things can get intimate and vulnerable. So I have a gift here. I've been thinking for weeks, how am I going to do this? I haven't seen him in a while. I haven't talked to him in person in a while.

So here you go. I thought for a long time about how to do this correctly.

Are you still opening the mornings with one of those?

I do every morning. Yeah. I've tried not to take them too far into the afternoon, but. But since I'll be up late tonight, I can have one.

Okay. And you have not yet quenched that habit. You haven't killed that habit. Even though you should be drinking water, you're taking care of yourself.

You look a lot healthier, as you always do the moment that you get off of the sidelines.

I have had people say that there is a lot less stress, but to be honest, with the weight loss, it was all medication and it was all the having gotten so bad with my blood sugar that I was a type 2 diabetic. I got put on Mounjaro, and that's all I've done. I haven't changed my diet a whole lot or anything else. So it's not really that I've done anything.

I have talked to you a great deal over the years about something that perpetually confounds me, which is you always returning to basketball when it seems to make you a good deal more miserable when you are a balanced person who loves his family. And yet there's something about the misery and the coaching that is frustrating. Forever calling you. Have you sort of reconciled now that you're approaching retirement, government retirement age, even though you're going to keep working for a while?

I imagine.

Have you reconciled the fact that you've devoted your life to a thing that consumes you and is a forever pursuit, but also had a lot of stuff.

In it that you didn't like so much?

Yeah. Actually really regret that I didn't allow myself or didn't do what I needed to do to enjoy it more? I mean, you know, because there's a lot about it that's good, and that's what draws me back all the time, the camaraderie of a team. And, you know, I was just saying to Mike Ryan out here. You guys know what that feels like. The camaraderie of a team working toward a goal. I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing better than that. And the challenge of competition, it's addictive. And I really wish that I would have enjoyed it more in the moment and made it more enjoyable for the people around me, foremost my family, but even the people within the organizations that I worked in that I would have made it more enjoyable for everybody around.

You're such a good learner, though. Why couldn't you?

You know, that's a great question. I mean, maybe I'm not a great learner, but. No, you are.

You are a great learner.

I just think in the moment, in the moment, I don't know, I just. I just couldn't enjoy it. And it's funny because I run into people all the time, you know, who I'll meet for the first time and, you know, will be talking to me and saying, oh, that must have been so exciting. That must have been so fun. And I'm thinking, damn, it should have been.

Is it the pressurization of it all? So many people relying on you. The margins for winning can be so small. You have so little control as the coach, even though you guys are control freaks, you have so little control when the ball is out there. You're watching like the rest of us, no matter how much you've prepared, and I don't know how much impact you think you can have on the results, but the coach on the other sideline.

Also thinks he's having.

So what you end up doing is dedicating your life to a pursuit that's rewarding, fulfilling. But this is an affliction for most coaches, what you're talking about here.

Yeah. What really got me, Dan, is I don't care how good a job you do. And I should have understood this happens. But there will always be things happen in the game where I would look and go, damn, I didn't have them prepared for that, or this was the wrong approach. And I put us behind the eight ball. And so that would happen even within the game itself. And then after the game, you go back and you look at the film and you can just line up the mistakes you made. And I'm talking about in your best game, I'm talking about you get a 30 point win and you're looking and saying, we weren't ready for that. They could have taken advantage for that. We got lucky, they missed here. And so in that pursuit of always trying to do Things better, which I think is good. But to just be able to say what I really wish I could have just said, okay, win or lose, what could we have done better? Let's approach that and then let's move on. Instead of. It weighed me down. The mistakes, I mean, affected the way I thought about myself and everything else.

And if you're not thinking well of yourself, then you're not happy. I mean, that's sort of the cycle that I went through.

I want to talk to you about Joy because it is something that I have struggled with in my life through a series of family patterns and embeddings that imprinted me that once I got into marriage and later in life, I learned some things that I had to learn about making sure to slow down and try to find the gratitude in things that made me present. Right. Because I can't tell you, even though I've heard that expression all my life about being present, present, I cannot tell you how much fear of the future or regret of the past are areas that plague people. And if you can just be in whatever moment you're in and summon a gratitude for that moment, that's what you're lamenting here, that you are, too.

You needed to get to the next thing, the next city, the next victory.

And it just seems like it really does seem like it should have been more enjoyable.

You would have never dreamed at any point in your life that the Van Gundy name would resonate throughout basketball the way it does.

No, not at all. And the NBA was never something that I even thought about, you know, other than to watch it like a fan. I mean, you know, we. We came up. We both were small college players. My dad was a small college coach. I thought that's where I would be, and I would have been perfectly happy being there. And then through some lucky developments, you know, you get a chance to be at this level, and I do appreciate that. I am grateful for that now. But as you said, in the moment, I didn't. In the moment, I regretted whatever mistakes I had made in the previous game and worried about what was coming up in the next game and what I needed to do. It was never about that moment other than, you know, my brother has said, which is a great line, and it's really true, there's the best five minutes in life are after a great road win, you know, and he laughs and says his daughter said, you know, what about when we were born? And he said, I said what? I said, you know, now, I don't agree with that.

To that extent. But, yeah, there are those brief moments after a great win where you feel good, but I didn't do it for long enough. Not that you're going to take a week while other games are coming, but take the night at least, you know, and have a. You know, have a beer with your wife or something and enjoy it and get back to work the next morning. No, I mean, I was already on the mistakes of that game, even if we won, and what are we doing tomorrow to get ready for the next team? And that's just. I think most coaches are like that. I don't think I'm different than most guys.

What do you view as sort of your happiest year and your unhappiest year in coaching? I would imagine getting to the finals with Orlando.

Yeah. You know what, though? As I look back, actually, no, my. My happiest year in coaching was 1983. 84. Coaching Castleton State College in 1984. 85. Two years there where coaching at Castleton was unbelievable. Good players, good teams, fabulous people who literally two weeks ago, eight of them came down. Guys played for me 40 years ago, and eight of them came down because, you know, they knew I'd been through some things, and so they were going to spend an entire weekend with me, the weekend of the men's and women's Final Fours and stayed with me. That group was really close in the NBA. Honestly, the most enjoyable year as a head coach was my first year. My year here, 03 04. We got off to an 07 start. We were 5 and 15, you know, and then to come all the way back and win 17 of our last 21 and make it to the second round of the playoffs. And that was a group where a lot of guys were either getting their first opportunity, obviously, it was Dwayne Wade's rookie year. Rafer Alston was really getting his first opportunity. Damon Jones, you know, we had had the year before and had that great.

You know, or we had. Yeah, that year. And so guys were getting their first big opportunity to play. And it was just fun. I mean, it was, you know, nobody had any real expectations on us. It was also, you, Donnis, his rookie year, Lamar Odom's first year and only year in Miami. I mean, it was just my most fun year in the NBA.

People love that team. 42 and 40. That team won a playoff series.

I mean, it was great. It went seven games. Home team won every game. And I mean, Dwyane Wade's first ever playoff game. He hits a game winner. You Know, I mean, it was. There were just a lot of great memories and. But again. And I, I love the staff. I mean, you know, it was Eric and Bob McAdoo, Keith Askins, you know, those guys were great. And people I still stay in touch with like very, very much and will always appreciate for the way they helped me through that, that first year. You know, there's no way I wouldn't have even made it through, let alone had any success without those three guys.

What do you regard as the worst of the years that you remember as like, man, that was a real suffering. I imagine the pressure in Detroit at some point when I was watching you from afar because the whole organization on you, all the responsibility of that. It seemed from afar like that was a lot. Even. Even though you improved the team and it hasn't been as good since you left.

Yeah, listen, I mean, what got me there was when we got to that 2017, 18 season, you know, coming down the stretch and trying to fight for a playoff spot and realizing in my own mind that probably what was on the line was the jobs of 50 people because I was the president and I had all these people and I, I've said. I know I've said this to you. I think what fans don't fully understand when they're screaming for the head of the coach and the guy to be fired and we're going to have it come up at the end of these playoffs with a lot of NBA coaches, I don't expect them to worry about the head coach. Like, we're set, we make great money. It's not a problem. But in my case there, I had 50 people who were going to lose their jobs and a lot of those people are making 50, 60, $70,000.

And you know their families, right?

Absolutely. You know their families and they've got young families and all of that, they're going to be out the door too. And that's not fans responsibility. I just think when fans get so vicious about it, they don't have that perspective. And it really pisses me off with the media sometimes who are doing the coach on the hot seat bit and the whole thing. And I know I've said this to you too, but you know, back when there were so many media layoffs and I'm not even talking as much people behind the mics, but back when the written part of like espn, you know, laid off a lot of writers and stuff and you know, they expect us to all feel sorry for them. And I'm like, wait a minute, you're the guys who were. Who want to spend half your career writing about how coaches should use their. Lose their jobs. Well, here you are. Well, here you are. So a little more sensitivity to, you know, the guy in the video room. Maybe I deserve to lose my job in Detroit. The guy in the video room didn't. He busted his ass. He was in there.

He was in there every Damn Day for 14 hours doing a great job, and he's being punished for my decisions. Like, let's tone down the, you know, excitement over people losing their jobs.

You mentioned Spoelstra. Could you see it early with him? Was it that obvious?

It was, and I will. You know, I know that's hard for people to believe, but I remember having been here only a couple of months, and I remember saying to my wife at home and to my brother and father, who obviously are basketball people, like, this guy's great, you know, and I've only done that, you know, he was early in his career, obviously, right at the beginning. And I did that one other time, and it was with Sean Miller when I was at Wisconsin, and I was only months on the job. And I was like, whoa, this is a different level. And I think what amazed me is when I came here, I'd already been in college coaching for 14 years, so I was new to the NBA, but I wasn't new to coaching. And to see somebody in their first job who had his intelligence, his knowledge of the game, his approach, and players immediately trusted him, like he would go work with them. And he just had this air about him. The thing with Eric, and I think players still catch on to it with him, it's always about them and about making the team better.

It's never about him. And so I think they are attracted to that right away. And then his competence, you know, he can go out there and teach you and help you get better. Yeah, I saw all of that right away. And then just his demeanor. I mean, he's not like me. He's not with the ups and downs. He may be internally, but externally he's very even keel. And so, yeah, now, if you had asked me at that time, this guy's going to be a Hall of Fame guy and go to six finals in 13 years and all of that. Do you see that? I mean, who the hell knows? But was he going to be a great coach? Yeah.

You mentioned his competence. I remember his confidence and being struck by the idea that he would say flatly in his first year, it is not my job for them to like me. It doesn't matter. Stop. Like, don't ask me questions about that. Don't care whether they like me. That has nothing to do with my job.

No, that's exactly right. And I think, you know, one of the things. And we were, you know, we were both here together for a long time, and the one thing that has really stuck with me about player coach relationships, Pat Riley said when we were here, and he would say it a lot, is the player coach relationship is a business relationship that is designed to get a result. That's what it's about. And you know, my brother talks all the time about, if you want to know what a guy's, how good a guy's relationship is with his players, watch him on the court because that's what matters. It's not whether the guy likes you, doesn't like you. Does he go out there and perform. If he does, the player coach relationships, outstanding. If he doesn't, he may be saying, God, this guy's my favorite coach ever and he's playing like crap. Then the player coach relationship isn't working. The personal relationship, maybe, but not the player coach relationship. And I think a lot of people in the media get that wrong. Like, they just want to go ask, do you like a guy? Do you not like a guy?

And then, you know, the players in the locker room don't like him. Really? Well, his team's winning all the time, so something's working. And Eric has understood that from the, from the get go. And listen, human nature. We all want everybody to like us. I mean, it's not like he doesn't care. I think people, when he makes a comment like that, people think he doesn't care if people like him. Of course he cares. He's just able to look past that and understand that's not what's important here. In the business of me coaching the.

Team, who's more joyless about the coaching process, you or your brother?

Oh, God, that's a hell of a question. I don't know. I would think that we're about the same. We were just so different temperamentally. I mean, I sort of wear my emotions on my sleeves. Jeff's very, you know, composed and so. But I would say we're pretty much the same. I really think if, if somebody would give him another chance, I honestly do think that he would be different with all of that. I. I do. I think that he's a more intentional learner, maybe in that regard. And I think he would, he would be different.

That's a cop out. You're a Media member. Now you got to take a stand. You can't have new.

But I don't really know. I really don't know.

Well, does he articulate the same sort of remorse about. I wish I had enjoyed it more.

Yes. Oh, absolutely. We talk about that all the time, like, from our background to get to where we were and to not have an appreciation for that. We do appreciate. Like, we. We will talk among ourselves. And I certainly have this feeling all the time of. Even now, even just sitting courtside broadcast in a game is like, how in the hell did I get here? Like, you know, I was a. I was a nondescript, small college player. I'm coaching at smuck. The hell I'm coaching in the NBA. The moment where I really remember it, my first year as a head coach here, our seventh game of the year, and the reason I remember it was the seventh game is he took us to 07. At the start of my career, we were in Houston. And what I. I remember the moment of lining up for the national anthem and looking down and seeing him on the other end and thinking, like, you gotta be kidding me. And. And I. Even at that point, even with the game coming up, I had to fight back the tears. At that point of just thinking, like, this is amazing.

I mean, I'd already had the tears. When he first got named the head coach, his first home game, they beat the. I think it was his first home game. I know it was his first home win. They beat Jordan's Bulls. And the crowd in Madison Square Garden was chanting his name. And I was watching on tv, and I got the tears then. But to be in the same game with him now. I did think, though he knew I was struggling. I'm starting my career at 06. He could have given us one. He could have given us one if he really. If he really gave a crap, sit a couple guys out, get me my first win, and then go on about. I mean, he could have done that. He didn't. So there are limits to his love for me. And I learned that at that moment.

You guys didn't talk. I've read this before that the only time that you didn't talk is when you were an assistant coach with Miami and he was the head coach of the Knicks. You went a period of time where the battles were so excruciating and the scars so deep and the competition so crazy that. Is that the only time in your life where you've had an extended period.

Where you did not speak?

Yeah. And, you know, you remember those series and especially the one where, you know, everything happened with Alonzo and, well, even before we had the fight where they had guys suspended for games, the only time we beat them in that rivalry because they didn't have guys for, you know, for Game seven and the whole thing, I mean, it was just. It was so fraught with emotion that it was just better because we're not going to see things the same way at that point. And to be honest, we still don't talk about really any of those games.

The Heat, Nick stuff still hurts.

We'll talk about it generally in terms of the respect we have for people on both sides. Like, you know, like when I saw Sprewell the other day, and I know how much he meant to Jeff and the whole thing. And then Jeff would, obviously, when Tim Hardaway was working for me, he'd see Tim all the time. I mean, there's great respect. And so we would talk about that, but never getting back into the specifics of games and the whole thing.

Thank you for always being a friend to me, to the show, to all of the people here, to our listeners. They have developed a relationship with you of admiration and respect. So thank you for being who you are, around us, with us and for us.

Thank you. And thank you for your friendship. And I said to you before, you know, walking in, I haven't been in these studios and walking in and seeing this and my admiration for you and what you've done for so many other people where you could have relaxed, taken your money, either been in retirement, or just worked for somebody else and made a good living. And I know you, and I know part of why you did this. It wasn't a ego trip for you to have this company. You did this to help other people, the people who work for you in here, the people you've put on the air and put in podcasts. And I know you take great pride in that. And as a friend of yours, it's something that I really appreciate about you. You've developed those relationships because you care about the people around you, me included. I mean, you know, I mean, you put me on the air the first year I was out of coaching, and I think that got other people interested in me. Like, you've. You've done that for people consistently when you could have made it a lot easier on yourself and just been about you.

And so I'll always appreciate that.

I do love you, buddy. I will say it again.

I love you, too.

Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm super excited about this one for A number of different reasons. First of all, Legend of Legend has come across the street finally. It took you many, many years of negotiations. You've walked across the street, and the Godfather comes over to studios he helped build. Okay, Me and my dad built a business near his business, and he trusted me with his story, and he was always there to help me. In a number of times over the last 30 years, for reasons I don't totally understand, perhaps he'll explain them to me. But he built dynastic basketball radioactive things in three different cities. The biggest cities, Los Angeles, New York and Miami. And then he comes down here and he makes Miami matter. He is basically top Don Shula as the greatest sports coaching leadership icon we've ever had in this city. And for 25 years, you're the only reason that Miami basketball has been what it is in our city, representing excellence in our city. So thank you, Pat Riley, for making the time and thank you throughout my career for helping me any number of times and ways. And I will say in another way, whenever I had some major life decisions to make around life and death stuff, I got the wisdom of songs, music, poetry, inspiration, history.

Pat Riley has been a bit of a life coach in some of my more challenging moments, pushing me into the deep end. So thank you for being here, and I'm just grateful in general for 30 years of being able to work near you. Coaching is different from being an executive. Like, you have changed. You have grown over the last 30, 40 years over who you've been as an executive. You brought all of that that you learned in Los Angeles and New York. You brought it to Miami and you're still here fighting at 79, when it would be very easy to just go to Malibu and rest. You've earned rest.

No, no. I mean, Jack McMahon, you know, Bill Sharman, Pete Newell, Jerry West, Dave Checketts, you know, all the executives that I worked with, I learned a lot from them, especially Jerry and, you know, working for him as a coach all those years in la. And so when I came to Miami and Mickey said that he was going to hire and he hired the president and head coach of the Miami Heat, I immediately turned all the executive stuff over to. At that time, it was Dave Wohl and it was Chris Wallace, and then Randy Funn came in and Andy Ellisberg and I coached. You know, I was never in the executive office of the basketball operation. I was down with the coaches. And at that time, it was Stan Van Gundy, Scotty Robertson and Bob McAdoo and me and Ron Culp. And Jay Sable and 12 players. That's all we had. I kept that tight. That group was tight. And I kept, you know, sort of an insulated, you know, fabric around that group, and it was important to me. So the executive part of it, in building the franchise, I don't care who you are as an executive, I had the power.

I never used it. I didn't want to use it, but I had the power. Basically, the players thought I had the power and I could coach, and that's the only thing that I could bring to this team is winning. I mean, I have to take it from the practice court to the old arena, which I love playing that old arena. And as long as we were winning, the executive things would take care of themselves. Now, while I was doing that, too, on the side, I was getting trendous, tremendous support, you know, from the people that I delegated that stuff to at the time, because I couldn't do both. I was not an executive. I was a coach. And I've learned how to become an executive, you know, better. And I've kept people together here. We have kept people together here for a long time. It's a great commercial running right now, and it's. It has sort of a religious connotation to it that in talking about, you know, teams can win, but families win championships. And I believe that you have to figure out a way where you can get everybody to buy in, not to just what you're doing on the court, but to really be part of something themselves, where they have a good time, they win.

We party, we have fun, we sing, we do videos, we do practical jokes. But that never gets away from when we hit the court. The sweat and the bodies are colliding, you know, and that's the way it is. But. So for 30 years, I've had so many people that have helped me along the way and supported me, because my mind was exactly where you said it would be. The Heat became first. I love that first team, you know, Tim Hardaway, Dan Marley, Keith Askins, you know, Jamal Mashburn, you know, Lonzo Morning, P.J. brown. I love that team. I love that team.

Another team. That's a manifestation of your will. Another.

Another.

Good. We just. We couldn't get a bounce here or there, you know, I mean, that's what happened. And that was one of the most painful times for me at the beginning, because I wanted to turn this franchise around, you know, so quickly. And you did. We did.

You turned it around, but not to your standards. No, you.

But you place the Ridiculous. You expected for some reason.

It's the standard. You've said in Miami. It's not reasonable. The standard is the championship, is the games that you want to be playing. And so you getting to the first and second round with not being able to get Michael past Michael Jordan. This was great indignity to you to not be deep in the playoffs.

Right, right. But there's certain levels of a success, I think, whether it's the first round, whether it's the second round, whether it's Eastern Conference finals or the finals. I mean, if you win it all, it is very, very hard. That's a hard trip for a whole season for any team. And so our level of success was very good based on what it was prior to our coming together here. But I wasn't satisfied because I knew we had a team that year, those years, that was a championship type team. And so for whatever reason why we didn't get there, I took it very personal. And they became some of the darkest years for me. At the end of the seasons, you know, after we had lost by a point here or a point there in the finals against New York, they were a great team too, and very competitive series. Always going to the ultimate game and losing and it's not fun, you know, it just takes you to a place of darkness. And so when I talked about starvation, you know, with the Lakers, I was starving for an opportunity to do something, to find another path.

And this was another form of starving to take this franchise that. I'm not saying that it was inept. It was not inept. It just was the team that didn't get anywhere. And so I felt very, very bad about those endings. But if you look back on them, they were the things that started the fan base here in Miami.

Oh, but you have talked so eloquently.

About this over the years. I remember during all of these games, it's some of the best writing that I did was you allowing me access around you to some of these feelings where you're saying game seven is the greatest way to live. What happens at the end, they're not.

Going to hang you by the thumbs.

In the middle of town square. It's a higher form of living. And you have let me into some of these dark places because I remember you volunteered to me. And I don't know why you did this. I still don't know to this day. You volunteered the story outside the locker room. You were broken at the time. You were still smoking cigarettes.

Only one stressed.

Only one stressed.

And.

And that Nick Stuff was stressful. All that shit was stressful. It looked stressful from where I was standing.

And.

And you volunteered the story of breaking down sobbing at your desk and Alonzo Mourning coming in in uniform and standing over you and tell you to do your fucking job. I never understood why you volunteered that story.

I don't know either. I mean, the first person who saw me walk out of the locker room was Tim Donovan. He's always standing right there by the stairwell. This is American Airlines arena, and we had just lost the first year. The arena opened, and we had lost in the seventh game by a point. And it was the first time that I really couldn't talk to my players. You know, I mean, for a while, I needed to. I needed a little time. And so I went into my office. I don't believe in post game meetings with your coaches, like, immediately, you know, because I got to take care of myself. And so the other coaches went to the video room. We had desks in there, and they waited. And I just. I just. I was in that. That office, and it all just came down, you know, I don't know. It could have been, you know, everything culminating from, you know, when I was raised, you know, with my father, what went on in LA or at the end, what went on at the end in New York. And here I am again losing, you know, failing.

And it's just. I was overwhelmed. So, yeah, I just. I cracked, you know, at that time. And I do. I forgot. I lost track of time, you know, but the tears felt good. They felt great. I just let them go. And then I felt this presence of Zoe, you know, he was. He opened the door, and so, you know, sculpted, you know, he was in his basketball shorts, and he was standing there like this, and he's going, I'll never forget it. He said, coach, I know you're feeling low. He said, but you got to come back in here and you got to finish the season. And he just filled me up. He said, I know, and I can relate to how low you are. He just filled me up. I walked in and they were all. They were all in that locker room, a bunch of gladiators, you know, half naked, you know, some still in their uniforms and just sitting there. And I'll never forget, when I walked in, they straightened up in their chairs. You know, they just sort of straightened up for a minute for the coach. And, you know, that made me even feel good, better, you know, I mean, that made me feel better because they knew how hard I took it, and it was my job to make sure I could give them some solace in this moment.

Because we had been through this like three years now.

Everyone knew the team was going to.

Be broken up after that. Everyone knew they'd given you everything that they had. Like they lost as a one seed to an eight seed on a bounce. And so it becomes a failure at the end. They're broken. In that locker room when you're saying it's your darkest, you're going out there and you've got to summon something for them now.

But that's where I think a lot of people miss, you know, what coaches do and what they have to do, you know. You know, prior to games and post games, there are those moments that are, are definitely seminal moments that you'll take with you for the rest of your life. You'll never forget that time. But you also, you know, talk about the adversity of the moment. You know, and I've talked about this all the time and it's somebody else's writing that in my readings when I was younger as a coach, that in every adversity we find, and we must find the seed of equivalent benefit, there has to be an equivalent benefit to this failure, to whatever it is. And out of that seed you replant it, you replant it, you replant it and then it, it might grow 100ft in a year or whatever it is. And so, you know, failure is just as much a part of the NBA as winning is. And probably it's more growth oriented than just winning games all the time. I mean, that's how you grow. You built your business on failure too, and you built your business on greatness.

And I think everybody who gets to where we have gotten to, we all have to appreciate those moments when it was dark and that it was low and that you never felt good about anything. So I have been born out of that. Even in the winning in la, there were moments that were darker than Miami because the expectation was even higher. And so here there was an expectation when I showed up and I felt like I failed, you know, those first six years. And then we had to do a two year rebuild. And then we got Karon Butler and then we got Dwyane Wade and we got Lamar Odom and we got Udonis Haslam. Walked through that door one day and we got Udonis Haslam and we had Eddie Jones and Brian Grant and we put together now the next iteration of what the Heat was going to look like. And then we got Shaquille, he got here and we had to lose some players we loved, but. And then we won our championship. And you have no idea, the relief, you know. Oh, man, you know, when we won that title, you know, the one suit, one shirt, one tie game, I call it, you know, it was the best feeling.

And we hadn't won. I hadn't won for 20 years in the championship. And so it was the best feeling for not only me, but for the city of Miami. It's almost like it was healing, you know, and so.

Oh, but this is why I was joyous. This is why I say, though, that.

I have a special admiration for what.

It is that you've built here, by any standard. Your first years here were successful by a reasonable sports standard, trying to build a thing in Miami, but you had come from. I play in the finals every year I play. I'm always in the Eastern Conference finals. I'm always in the Western Conference finals. You've. All you've done is won at a higher level than what you were winning in Miami, like anything. So you're. So your standard is unreasonable, is it not?

Maybe, but I don't look at it that way.

So you think you're failing for six years, and you don't feel like you've succeeded until finally the one. The one suit, one tie game. That was because you were just going back to Dallas and you didn't plan on playing any more than one game. You were up. You were up 3, 2 in the final, and you were saying, we're going there to finish a series that people were expecting you to lose there.

Right? Yeah. I mean, that was not a motivational ploy, but that was definitely a message that I wanted to get to him. You know, just like when we were down, you know, to nothing, you know, I wrote on the board, six two zero six, and they all looked at it like, okay, 620.06. What is that? You know, and, you know, it definitely wasn't a biblical scripture or anything like that, but I said, that date is the first date that we can be world champions. 62006. We're going to be world champions. Get that in your mind. And Gary Payton, I love him to death. I just saw him the other day. He showed me his 15 strong card. You know, it's a credit card that we all. It's not a credit card, but it's a real card. 15 strong. 250,000 cards we used to put in there. And we used to believe that what we put into that pit, that little silver pit every night were more Than cards. They had to put something personal in there. Rosary beads, your mother's pictures, your family, whatever it is, something that counted was in there.

That locker room was a bit religious.

There's a picture of you with your arms extended. That's a bit Messiah.

They got me at the, the right time when I was probably yelling and screaming.

That was the, that was the start of the cult or the cult and culture started around there where you're all of a sudden, now you're, you're championship Riley in Miami.

Well, Peyton said to me, okay, coach, I see the date, but how are we going to do it? What are you going to do to help us get there? I mean, he laid it right on me. We're down 02 and we did not play well in Dallas. And I said, I said, gary, if you just follow me, we will get it done. I didn't say that with an arrogance or a hubris. It might sound like it. I said, you gotta follow me now from game to game because we did not execute worth a damn down there. We didn't do the things that we, we talked about doing after we beat Detroit in that glorious six game win here in Miami. And so, and for the next four games, then we just turned Dwayne loose, who at that time became the greatest player in the world during those two weeks. He was incredible. 35 a game, averaging 18, 19 free throws a game. God bless you, Mark Cuban. God bless you. I know he was upset with the officiating, but Dwayne earned that.

God bless you, Avery Johnson, because you.

Never stopped doubling Shaq.

Yeah, and. But I'm not going to second guess anybody. I'm just going to say to myself that, you know, Gary, follow me. We will get this done. On the back of Dwayne on the great play of Shaquille and Alonso and then the timeliness of Udonis Haslam making key plays in the fourth quarter of game six. James Posey making a three from the corner. And James Posey, who is not a great one on one player, getting caught with the ball with three seconds on the shot clock had nothing to do with it. He put it on the floor, floor and made a runner. And you know, and then Gary Payton making a steal or J. Will making one jumper, or Antoine Walker going full court and laying it up and giving a little shimmy on the court. I remember all that stuff. And, and so when we finally won it in game six, it was just like an explosion of emotion. It was incredible. Everything came back, you know, from, from all the years and it came back for a lot of the players, too.

When I ask you about the cost of excellence, where do you have regret on what the cost was?

I'm never going to apologize to my players for being tough. Never. That's who I was. That's how I was coached. That's how I was raised. That was my approach. But I also had a tremendous compassion for him, even when I was tough on him. So if there's one regret that I might have, it would be a familia regret of not being there really enough for my kids. The schedule just makes it almost impossible. I know it sounds like an excuse, but even, you know, long distance, there wasn't FaceTime back then. There wasn't any of these things where you could. Could really contact him other than a call at night, you know, with Elizabeth, you know, talk to Chris, put Elizabeth on for a minute, put James on for a minute. You know, we're chasing our dreams out there still. And that. That to me. And also, you know, not being around, you know, Chris as much as I, you know, at that time, too, and traveling. And that's why I don't travel now that much, because I don't want to be. I don't want to be away from her, you know, at this age, you know, so.

And he's got the trips. He's got the road trips, and he mixes up the road trips now by going, seeing, you know, the Eagles or Springsteen or something. So he.

Oh, but, Pat, it's not just the schedule, though. It was the schedule combined with the obsession.

You were. You were. And you are a maniac.

Yeah, well, I'm not a maniac, but I was definitely preoccupied. You can call it, you know, whatever you want, describe it.

But you just told me I couldn't call it crazy. It's obsessed. You were obsessed with work, with excellence, with not getting caught from behind, too. No, correct. But it pulls me away from some of the things that I love that you're now talking about when you're saying, I wish I could have been there. Especially when you're saying, I want to be there every minute now with Chris.

Because you have a better appreciation for.

The stuff that actually that matters the most.

Matters the most. Right. Yeah. So, you know, when you come to that thought process, I'll steal another quote. Don't know who the author was. A man or woman's Right. Greatest fear is their fear of extinction. But what they should fear even more than that is to become extinct one day with insignificance. And what that always meant to me is that all I ever wanted to do in my life is something that mattered and counted. And I did that in sports. I didn't do that as a husband or a father, as much as I wish I could have. So that's something that we all talk about. When you talk to longtime life coaches, they would, at my age, all of them say the same thing. I wish I could have. You know, I'm, you know, Nick Saban, you know, Dick Bennett, you know, I mean, these coaches that are getting out of college basketball, that are great coaches, and they were asked questions why they're leaving at such an early age, and they're all talking about, I always felt that my job as a coach was to develop young men, was to help them grow, and when they graduate from my university, that they're ready.

And this nil or this portal or all the things that are going on in college sports right now, has driven some of the greatest coaches, you know, from what their passion was and what they thought they were doing out.

But what you're talking about, Pat, correct.

Me if I'm wrong, you're not just.

Talking about the schedule when you say.

I wish I could.

What you're saying is the demands of.

The job are such that if you're.

Going to be obsessed enough to be excellent, that combined with the schedule, makes it almost fundamentally impossible for someone to be a present father and husband. Maybe, maybe some figure it out because they've got some magical stardust. But you thought you had to be working 20 hours a week, correct? Or 20 hours a day.

We did, but Chris and I figured it out. I mean, we figured it out, and you understand it. So, I mean, just the nature of the job for 57 years is that our life was from September until the end of the season. May, April, May, June, you're in this life, and it could be a wonderful Orient Express ride or a train wreck, and you have to go through that. And your. Your life is owned by a schedule, and you have to work everything around that schedule. That's all there is to it. And so, you know, when, when you have that kind of schedule and then your vacation time is simply from August to September 1st, and that's it every year.

Thank you, buddy. Thank you for everything.