Transcript of Unite union boss: Labour should borrow more to help 'hurting' workers | Election 2024

Sharon Graham, can we just get one thing clear? Do you actually want Labor to win this election with a big majority?

Yes, absolutely. Of course, I want Labor to win the election with a big majority. I'm a Labor Party member, but I'm also a Trade Union leader. My first job, first and foremost, is defend workers. That is the job that I have, to defend workers. I will do that to the best of my ability. Sometimes we disagree. I think when you disagree, people have to be big enough just to allow those disagreements to happen. Nobody thinks that everybody it agrees all the time in terms of the movement. Of course, I have come out very strongly because I'm defending workers on two core things, fire and rehire, and also on the oil and gas industry and the lack of a plan for the oil and gas industry. I've also spoken very, very clearly about growth and what's happening about growth. So yes, of course, I want them to win. I'm asking my members to vote Labor. I'm voting Labor. But that does not mean that you have to agree to every single thing. It does not mean that you say, Look, actually, wrong in this situation, and I think you need to do something slightly different.

Well, let's talk about each of those in turn. But before we get to that, how did it feel to be in the so-called Clause 5 meeting where you agree the manifesto and to be the only person in the room who wasn't going, yay, let's go for it.

Well, look, I was the minority of one. I will absolutely be clear on that. But my job is to defend workers. If I see in a manifesto, which was a good things in there, let's be really clear, I want Labor to win. There were good things in the manifesto about steel, about industrial policy, the worker's rights piece. There are good things there. But when I'm looking at a manifesto and I can see that fire and rehire is not an outright ban, and I can see the oil and gas workers, whilst there are things in there around moving to net zero, everybody wants to do that. But you cannot allow oil and gas workers to become the coal miners of this generation. I won't allow that to happen, and because of that, I could not endorse the manifesto.

Well, it sounds like what you're saying is the manifesto essentially let down your members. Is this the beginning of the good old labor tune, Betrayal?

No, actually, it's actually normal negotiations. I negotiate with big businesses all the time. I try to put stuff forward. We try to get deals. In the real world, People disagree.

This is very old school of you, isn't it? I mean, these days, labor trade unions are labor trade unions rather than trade unions.

Well, I think in the recent past, you couldn't see where labor ended and the trade union For me, and when I stood to be General Secretary of Unite, I made it really clear that my job was to defend jobs, pay, and conditions of workers, and that's what I've done. We've had over a thousand disputes in two years covering 200,000 members, and we've had double-digit pay rises, £430 million back into the pockets of workers. My job is to defend workers. I'll do it unashamedly. Yes, there are times when people might not like that, but that is the job that I've got, and that's what I will do. In that room, I had 1.1 million members when I put my hand up to say that actually we weren't going to endorse that manifesto. I will do that every single time because that's the job that I've got.

Well, let's talk about what you might face with an actual Labor Government if they, as they say, have the privilege to be elected. Angela Reina says that on the oil and gas industries where the pledge is not to agree any new exploration in the North Sea, she says that they will create, what, 100,000 green jobs, and that you're just fussing about your members' jobs, and you don't really understand what they're trying to do. Yeah.

Well, I've negotiated for 35 years, Trevor, and one thing I know is your read between the brackets. So two things. When you say, I'm going to ban fire and rehire. If you're allowed to use it for restructure, that's exactly what British Airways did to 36,000 workers, that means it's not a ban. If you ban it, no ifs, no but, you cannot use it. On oil and gas, I'm really clear, you cannot let go of one rope before you've got hold of another rope. What we need to see in terms of oil and gas is that we need to see a proper plan with investment behind it. There's no point saying we're going to create jobs, but you're not going to show where the money is to create those jobs. Now, I've put forward a very detailed plan in terms of what it would cost and those jobs.

She's got a plan. Haven't you seen it?

Well, of course, I've seen the words on the page, but we all know, do we not, that if you are going to move from oil and gas to renewables, You need to put in an infrastructure. Wind power is what you would be looking at. That would cost £6.6 billion, £1.1 billion for the next six years, and that investment needs to be there. You cannot just magic up jobs. It doesn't work like that. You need an infrastructure, you need supply chains, you need training, you need all of those things to happen. I said in the Clause 5 meeting that when I'm talking to my members, we often have a discussion, what are these green jobs? Is someone driving an electric bike for delivery? Is that one of these green jobs? We need to make sure these are proper jobs, commensurate with the jobs effectively that have been there.

But in the end, an agreement, to some extent, has to rely on trust. It sounds to me like what you're saying is you're ready to negotiate with the You can see their position, but you don't accept it. But actually underlying it, you're not absolutely sure that you trust these people.

Well, I wouldn't say that. What I would say is that there's a huge amount that's been done on steel, for example, on workers rights, for example, a whole raft of things where clearly the negotiations got us to a position. I was part of those negotiations, and that's a good thing. I'm going to say again, Trevor, because it is important, we need a Labor Government. But that does not mean that we shouldn't also have discussions about what the future looks like. We need to borrow to invest.

Well, this is very interesting because Rachel Reeve says growth is actually at the center of Labour's plans. Do you think her plans are credible?

Well, look, I don't agree with Rachel Reeve in terms of what has been said about the plans on growth. Because whilst we all want growth, I want growth, I think everybody would want growth, we are going to have to borrow to invest. Look, if you look at other countries, in France, their debt to GDP is 112%. In America, where the economy is growing, it's 130% debt to GDP. Ours is around about 99%. We have wiggle room. Give Britain a break. Give us a break. I mean, these people that are out there in communities and the workers, they are literally hurting beyond anything that you could comprehend. What we need is we need to straight jacket off a little bit, get some wiggle room there. Borrowing to invest is not the same as other borrowing. It's borrowing to invest. It's part of our balance sheet. Let's get that done. If you don't do that, we'll be waiting too long.

But Rachel Reeve is essentially saying that labor cannot afford to do that. Labor has to have credibility. To take your metaphor of the Wiggle Room, she's put on the It's a corset, and she's not going to release the strings on this, is she?

Well, look, let's put it this way around. After the Second World War, our debt to GDP was 250%, and we built the NHS. We built the NHS, and we went on to be prosperous. There is wiggle room there, and I think it is right that I say- Rachel's wrong. What you're saying is Rachel's wrong. I don't agree with Rachel in terms of keeping to these phony fiscal rules. We do not have to keep to these fiscal rules in the way that we are doing. Actually, If you let the strait jacket off, we've done this in the past, I just spoke about America, everyone keeps talking about America's growth, they are 130% debt to GDP. We're near 99. We have got wiggle room here. We've done it before, we can do it again. A 1945 labor government did it before. Let's do that again.

Are you amongst those who is a bit disappointed by what is said to be Labour's lack of ambition?

Well, look, I think Labor have done some good things. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here because that would be ridiculous. They have done some good things, and I do believe they want to do good things. We have seen the country hurting. What I, of course, would like them to do, I do think they need to see that we must loosen the strait jacket that they are talking about fiscally, and we must borrow to invest. If we're going to have transition, we're going to need the money to do that.

Last question then. In the end, if Kier Starmer gets the big majority that you say you want, why should he pay the blindest bit of notice to you?

Well, first of all, I think he He will because I meet Kierstaermer and he understands that I have got a job to do. I say many, many times in conversations with Labor, I am here to fight for workers. That is the primary job that I have. But also, I think that if you put your fingers in your ears, if you put your fingers in your ears to workers, we could be walking ourselves down a line where those people go somewhere else to seek solace. There is one shot. There is one shot for labor to get this right. We've seen the polls and how volatile the as the polls are. Less than five years ago, a short time ago, there was 80% majority for the Tories. That has now moved over completely. There's one shot to get this right because we can see that there may be difficulties ahead if that is not the case.

When you say there's somewhere else for them to go. Where are you talking about? They're not going to go to Conservatives.

Are you talking reform? Well, we can already see. I don't think it was a coincidence that Nigel Farage launched his manifesto in Merthyr Tydfil, one of the poorest parts of the UK. I think Labor have got one shot. We can see the volatility of the electorate. One shot to really say to workers and communities, We are with you. We can see the pain that you're going through. To say to them to wait for growth. To say to them to wait for growth, it is not quick enough. They are on in and put their arms around them. I really want Labor to do that. They've done some fantastic things in the manifesto. I'm supporting Labor, but we need to do more.

Jan Graham, thank you very much for your time.

Thank you.