Transcript of Shadow Health Secretary calls out Labour over pay rises as nurses reject 5.5% pay rise offer

Yesterday, nurses rejected the government's pay rise offer of five and a half %. You said the decision was foreseeable. What did you mean by that?

Because the labor government has lost control of the independent public sector pay process. The advice I received, and I have no reason to believe that the Health Secretary would have received any different advice, but there is clear advice I received from officials when I was working not just with nurses, but across the board, was that if The ramifications of giving one part of the health workforce an inflation-busting pay rise, as they did over the summer with junior resident doctors, will have an impact across the workforce, including for nurses. And so is it any wonder that having given this inflation-busting pay rise with no reform, no productivity improvements for junior doctors in the summer, that nurses and other healthcare professionals are now asking why they are not valued in the same way by government.

But your government didn't handle the nurses very well either, did you?

Well, when I was Secretary of State, I was absolutely determined to ensure that we did give nurses a fair deal, and that included, by the way, working conditions. So I introduced to improve working conditions for junior doctors, and I was working on improving working conditions for nurses with the Chief Executive of NHS England as well. But I took the step. I was so determined to do this that I took the step of going to give evidence in person at the Payreview body because I wanted to put in context the evidence that I had seen of nurses working incredibly hard, making sure that after a very tough few years with the pandemic and so on, that they were given a fair settlement. What has changed the narrative is that since that recommendation has been given to the government and they've accepted it, they've then given an inflation-busting pay rise to junior doctors. I suspect that is why nurses are now saying, Well, hang on, what if 22% over two years is good enough for junior doctors? Why is it not good enough for us as nurses?

How much would you be giving to them?

Well, it would have been part of the process. And this is why during the election campaign, Keir Starmer and West Streeting were saying, Oh, roll up your sleeves and get round the table with the junior doctors. These negotiations are incredibly complex. And as I I say the advice I was getting from officials was that whatever I do with junior doctors will have an impact across the rest of the system, as we've now seen. But I wanted to ensure that nurses got that fair deal, and I wanted to have a consistency of approach across pay deals so that with, for example, consultants, I made sure that as part of the deal that I reached with them, we were rewarding skills and experience. We were trying to improve productivity. We were also getting rid of some of the gender pay gap because female Fumal Consultants, in particular were suffering because of the historic contract that was sub-20 years old. I was trying to do all of that whilst to reach a settlement that's fair for the staff, for patients, and for the taxpayer. I'm afraid this decision that this Health Secretary took over the summer is now beginning to have longer term consequences across our health system.

You also claimed what's needed is action now, not words about the past. You would say that, wouldn't you? Given the, I suppose the present government would say it's your fault.

Well, Again, this is their decision to give this inflation-busting pay rise in the summer. Over the summer, Judge a government by its actions, they've stopped building new hospitals. They have scrapped the NHS's own productivity plan. We have GPs entering industrial action and now a potential dispute with hundreds of thousands of nurses and midwives. There has to be a long-term strategy to this. Interestingly, only nine months ago, when he was in opposition, West Streeting was saying to me, Oh, that you've paid consultants too much. This is a slap in the face for nurses. Yet when he's in government, he's given an even bigger pay rise to another section of the clinical community and then is apparently taken aback that nurses are asking why they're not valued in the same way.

Kemi Badenock has defended freebies as a way to spend time with the family. Do you agree?

I tend to spend free time with my family at home or in my constituency, in the garden, and so on. That's freebies are not my thing, and indeed, my register shows that. But what is interesting, again, is that the reason this has become so toxic for the Labor Government is that, of course, before the election, they were saying one thing. We now learn they were doing the exact opposite. And so I think it is that hypocrisy that people are very, very upset about.

What do you think about what Kemi Badenock has said?

Well, in fairness to Kemi, she hasn't gone out as Kierstaermer has claiming to be pureer than pure. And so it is the hypocrisy of this that is really getting to people. And we've seen it in other aspects.

She wasn't without hypocrisy.

Well, but we've seen it in other aspects with, for For example, the Health Department, we have uncovered, they keep talking about transparency, but journalists have uncovered. We've tried to find out more about, for example, a former Health Secretary who has significant business interests in advising health businesses being allowed into the Health Department willy-nilly in a way that nobody else would be allowed. There's no explanation for that. We've also, of course, seen the Chancellor herself appoint her personal donor into the Civil Service, and she only stopped that when the public fury was such that it became too difficult for her to justify.

Just been reading about David Davis, ex-Cabinet Minister. He was raking in £3,000 an hour as an advisor to the manufacturer's JCB. He was a former Brexit secretary, and then he took £60,000 for 20 hours work each year from Lord Bamford, who was a major donor to the Leave campaign. But that doesn't smell not right, does it?

Political donations are perfectly permissible. I don't know the details of that. But in terms of the charge against the Labor Government is that before the election, we have seen that they have been having donors buying clothes.

He was in charge of taking us out of the European Union. And then the year after, he takes 60,000 quid from the guy that was campaigning to leave.

But it's also It's a reputable, very, very reputable business. So you're happy with that? Well, I think they're apples and pears, if I'm honest, Kay, because what we're seeing is that the Labor Government has taken donations. That person who has paid for the Chancellor's clothes and the Deputy Prime Minister's clothes has a past to Downing Street. We've seen that... Well, again, interesting how that came about. They say that we don't actually know that because they weren't transparent about the pass in the first place. So you don't believe them? Who knows? The problem with this, they keep talking about transparency, but all of this information has been eeked out of them because of investigative journalism. And so it isn't quite as transparent. The Chancellor says, Oh, well, I took this donation. Nowhere did it detail that it was to purchase clothes for her personal wardrobe. And so it is this eking out of this information that I think is becoming increasingly a problem for the labor government. And it's why we're saying, you cannot say one thing in opposition and then do something else in government. It is extremely worrying that they're allowing their donors and so on to become and party workers to become civil servants.

That, again, is something that I certainly never saw as a minister or as a secretary of state. And it is that hypocrisy that I think is really beginning to hurt them. Of course, all of this is going on whilst we know that pensioners are having their winter fuel payments stopped this winter. We know that families are really worried about what will be coming up in this budget.

That's certainly true. I can't remember. You've told me before, I can't remember who you're backing.

Robert Jenrick.

What did you think about that sweater he had on over the weekend that said, Hamas are terrorists?

I haven't seen it, but I think the-I can show you there. As a fact-There it is. Well, I mean, again, you'll remember the debates we had this time just a little under a year ago, and I certainly went on Question Time and other programs asking the BBC why they were not describing Hamas as a terrorist organization.

And we do within this organization, but I wouldn't wear a sweatshirt like that and walk around London. No.

Well, no. But then I'm not going to be telling Rob which clothes he should be wearing. The problem arises where, as I say, cabinet ministers have people buying their clothes for them. That's a very different matter.

Yeah, but those that would be leader of your party, having a smile on the face with Hamas a terrorist and posing for selfies that they put on Twitter.

So So I think Rob-Not very adult. Well, but Rob feels he has a very, very strong links with Judaism. His wife is Jewish. I understand that. He and many other Jewish people have grown increasingly worried about the... His wife is Jewish. Have grown increasingly worried about how... That's incitement. The streets of London. We have mass demonstrations. Of course. That's incitement.

And Jewish people feel very worried about walking out the streets.

I hesitate as a former criminal barrister. I always hesitate before analyzing that and suggesting. I'm not sure it would be, Kay, but as I said-How would you describe it then? It's a top, and it says Hamas, a terrorist. I think actually, as people know, they are a terrorist organization, and that is completely consistent with everything that Robert said, and indeed, I've said since October seventh. The future of Palestine and the future of Israel is to have a two-state solution and for this terrorist organization to be eradicated from Palestine, because that is what we all, as peace-loving people, want to see an immediate ceasefire. We want to see this return to the Middle East.

I always enjoy jousting with a criminal barrister.Thank.

You very much indeed.Thank you, Kay.

Thank you. Mary has been listening. Hi, Mary. Thoughts, morning.

Morning, Kay. Yeah, fascinating on many levels. Let's start at the beginning. Victoria Atkins there talking.