Transcript of The Shocking Murder of Terry King (Part 1)

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash.

And I'm Elaina.

And this is Morbid.

This is Morbid.

It's a podcast that you listen to to hear scary, cautionary, horrifying, chilling, paranormal tales.

That are sometimes motivational.

Yeah. And twilightified.

Oh, yeah. You get ready for that, babe.

It's coming up quick, actually.

Get ready. Yeah. I can't wait. I'm going to reread New Moon?

Oh, bitch. I got to reread. I got to order it.

I have it. I just got to dig it out.

I'm so jealous of you having your original copies. Oh, yeah. I got shuffled around so much. I know. It just didn't work out.

I know. I was lucky. I only really had to go from one house to...

That's actually so wild. You moved from Mom and Papa's to one apartment and then with John.

Yeah, I was just with John after that.

That's cuckoo nuts. One of your kids asked me how many times I moved the other day, and I was like, Babe, I don't have time to count right now.

I feel like it's a lot.

I have no time to count right now. There's a lot here. Yeah. I feel like I'm still recovering from New York, in a good way. I had so much fun.

I always recover from any travel.

Yeah, same. You had a certain age and you're just like, I'm always It's thrown off by it. I forgot to mention when we were talking about it, though, me and Drew's Out of Death Becomes Her. If anybody has a chance to go see that show, go see it. Mikey had seen it before me and he was like, You got to go. It's one of my favorite movies. So I was like, Oh, yeah, I'll definitely go. I'm not a huge musical person, usually.

I'm going to fight you.

I know. It was the most incredible thing I've ever seen in my life, I think.

Yeah, I've heard nothing but good things.

It was so much fun. We got to see Ms. Michelle Williams. Holy shit. Which was next level.

I thought John was literally- John was very impressed by that.

Drew thought that was the funniest thing in the world because we met up with you guys later and Drew was telling John about it. And John was like, Oh, my God, that's so cool. And then that night, Drew was like, John cares about Michelle Williams? And I was like, yeah. I was like, John's a big '90s guy.

He's a big RM guy.

It was so funny. Yeah, it was a great show. So if you guys have a chance to see it. And I met a couple of listeners there. Oh, I love that. They were so nice.

What a nice place I love to meet people. I know. It really was. I love when it's a good vibe like that.

Well, the vibes were impeccable. Oh, yeah. Top-notch.

Top-notch. And speaking of things that you should watch this week for Scream, or whatever week it is for Scream, I'm covering Guillermo Del Toro's Frankenstein, which you can watch on Netflix.

It's incredible. It's incredible.

Blew my fucking mind apart. I mean, I love I love Guillermo. You're a purist. Pan's Labyrinth is one of my favorite movies. I think Guillermo, his cabinet of curiosities, by the way, on Netflix is also awesome. So go watch that.

Oh, remember I told you about that?

It's very cool. And Guillermo's the best. I literally am obsessed with everything he does. I think he's brilliant. I think he is a special flower that I hope just stays around forever.

He has a rain room, right?

Oh, he's the best. His house is iconic. Iconic. He's the coolest in there.

He's an artist.

Everything whenever he opens his mouth and talks, listen, because he's saying Brilliant shit.

It's like that show from The Princess Diary. Shut up and listen.

Shut up and listen. And his take on Frankenstein.

Now it was next level.

It had me crying. I cried. It had me... After I finished watching it, because John was, because he's just the best. John was literally wrapping Christmas presents, and I was like, I I have to watch this for Scream? So do you mind? I'm working. And he was like, you know what? He was like, let me wrap these gifts. I'm going to wrap some of yours. I'm like, I'll do this. And he's like, I do want to watch it later, but I'll let you do this because you're... We have to pause. We have to pause a lot. We have to pause a lot.

Taking notes and all that.

Afterwards, I was like, John, we need to watch this immediately together because that was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. No, it really is. Jacob O'Lordy. And here's the thing, Jacob O'Lordy is a very good-looking man. He is very attractive.

And don't you forget it.

But it I'm not losing my mind.

I'd like you to go now.

I will acknowledge. I'm never going to say that that is not a handsome man. You must. But just...

I think he's 27, so it's fine. So it's okay for you to not be losing your shit. It's okay that I'm like... Not that it would be weird if you did, but just to make you feel better.

Thank you. I appreciate it. You bet. Because here's the thing.

No, I'm actually really glad that you're being so brave right now. I'm being brave. And I'm going to be brave afterwards. Why?

Why did I love him as Frankenstein's monster?

No, why was I literally attracted to... I love euphoria. I found him to be so attractive. His human form you love. I love his human form. And then as I was watching, I'm not even going to lie to you. I'm going to be so brave right now. Be brave. I didn't really want to watch it. I was like, okay, I'm sure this will be like, whatever. It was incredible. And as I was watching it, I just got more and more enthralled. I was like, I think I would spend the rest of my life with that monster.

100 %. He absolutely shattered that role. That movie better.

When I was finished with it. I literally said... Because I told Drew, I was like, I got to watch this for Scream. Then he was like, at the end of it, I go, That was one of the most beautiful movies I've ever seen. He was laughing so hard. He didn't even want to watch it.

Yeah. It shows you, though. Give it a... Give things a chance. Give it a chance.

It's because that's not usually something I would just click to for leisure. I'm going to watch it again.

I'm telling Guillermo the way he does Guillermo. I'm saying it like he's my friend Guillermo. Someday, I'm going to meet Guillermo and just tell him that he's a brilliant, special, fairy creature, and I love him. Manifestive. I will. I'm pretty good at manifesting.

You're so good at manifesting. That's why I'm telling you, do it.

But it's something about, because I think we've I talked about this before, that like certain TV shows or movies, if the color palette is off for me, I'm out. I immediately am out. And I have a very particular color palette that will just send me into orbit in a good way.

I was never really aware of color palettes until you shattered that glass for me. And now I think about it often.

Well, and I'm very particular about the one that I love. And so when I come across that, Guillermo always gives me that one I love. It's a pan's labyrinth.

Because he does these deep tones. Like Also just the fashion. All of Mia God's outfits were, I was like, Where do I get? Where do I purchase?

Everything is beautiful. The monster, the way he put him together is beautiful.

It's so cool.

Everything was beautiful. This is all to say, go watch that if you haven't watched it yet. When he gives her the leaf. It's so fucking good. When he gives her the leaf. Oh, it shattered my soul.

I wouldn't look at a million dollars the same way I would look at that leaf from that monster.

I was going to fuck up Victor Frankenstein when he just kept...

Well, you got to go listen to Scream, of course, because we're basically just doing it right now. Give me your leg.

I was like, I'll punch you in the gut damn face. At one point, John walked by to go into the kitchen and I had it paused and I just looked at him and I go, Fuck Victor Frankenstein. Am I right? And he was like, Hell, yeah. He had no idea what I was talking about.

He said, Hell, yeah. He was like, Yup. That's a husband.

He said, Support. Let's kill him. And I was like, Yeah, just wait, buddy. Just wait. It's a great movie, though. I'm highly recommending it. Yeah.

It's got to win every award in my opinion. It really does. It really does. Go listen to our episode on Scream. If you don't listen to Scream, we cover horror movies and just like, like, readers, anything spooky, creepy.

And Caleb's there.

And we do it with Caleb, who's just the fucking tits.

He's just a delight.

So go check out Scream. I think that's all the banter we have today.

And then now we're going to, we're going to dive.

I'm about to rock your shit.

Yeah. We're going to dive into the depths right now. Yeah.

I I actually got to watch Frankenstein after I covered this. Oh, that's nice. After I finished writing this. So I was like, okay, cool. So I do want to give a trigger warning up top. This is going to be a two-partner. If you've clicked on it, obviously, you know it's the murder of Terry King. It involves a lot of child abuse and actual physical abuse and sexual abuse. So I know that's not something everybody wants to listen to. So I just want you to know that these two parts, we are going to talk about some of that stuff. Not very explicitly by any means. Dave is incredible when he helps us research this stuff and he keeps out the awful gory details. Yeah, he never goes super graphic. We never want to go too far, but that is a theme in this. So just know that. So let's dive in. Let's do it. All right. So on the night of November 26, 2001, Ed Harris had just fallen asleep next to his wife. He was falling asleep. And he got up all of a sudden and heard these weird cracking, popping sounds. So he's still half asleep.

He gets out of bed. He's rolling around in the dark, trying to figure out where these sounds are coming from. And that's when he reached the window and he saw that the house next door to them was engulfed in flames. So he grabbed the phone. He grabbed the phone, he called 911 to report the fire, and he told the dispatcher, Terry King and his two boys are in that fire. I know their home because their car's in the driveway.

Oh, that'd be horrifying. Yeah.

So he gave directions on how to reach what was a pretty isolated rural road, and he was told that firefighters were on their way. Now, David Jordan was the firefighter who first arrived on the scene. He was actually off-duty at that point, but he heard the call come through on the police scanner and just literally went right to it. By the time he reached the house, the fire had already burned through most of the roof. Wow. And from over the roar of the fire and the snapping of wood, he could hear Ed Harris yelling to tell him that the King family was still inside the house. So he knew he couldn't wait for the other firefighters to get there. So he went around to the back of the house where the fire hadn't reached yet, and he kicked down the back door. But as soon as he did that, a massive cloud of toxic black smoke just came billowing out into the backyard. Oh, damn. So he knew there was no way he was going to be able to get inside to see anything or be able to get inside and breathe without any equipment.

So he decided to prepare the building by cutting off the power and clearing a path for the on duty firefighters to get there. So when the fire crew arrived a short time later, they moved slowly through the house, crawling on the floor from one to the next, but they didn't see any signs of victims or survivors. Firefighter Marcus Williams had just about used up the air in his oxygen tank, and he was actually turning to make his way out of the house when he got radioed from another firefighter in another part of the house that they had found a body. The room was completely dark and obviously clouded by smoke. So firefighter Brandon Beecher was just feeling his way around what he thought was the living room, and he was padding along the sofa when his hands suddenly touched something resting on the edge. Oh, man. So he moved the beam of his flashlight onto the edge of the couch and immediately jerked his hand away when he realized what he was touching was a human foot. Now, once the fire was fully extinguished and the room had been cleared of all the smoke, he and the other firefighters were able to take in the full picture.

The homeowner, 40-year-old Terry King, was sitting in an armchair in a very relaxed position. His legs propped up on the adjacent couch, hands folded his chest and a coffee cup sitting on the arm of the chair. Even though he was covered and scarred by the fire at that point, they were surprised, firefighters, by how serene and peaceful he looked. It looked like he had just fallen asleep right there and was completely He was completely unaware.

That's so spooky, though.

Super spooky. But when they moved around to the other side of his body, the right side of his face told a very different story. There was a fist-sized hole in the right side of his forehead head, and there were streaks of blood dried down his face.

Holy shit.

Yeah. So as they scoured the scene, it was very clear that this was the home of a family. There was children's toys on various rooms' floors, and there were Christmas decorations that had been laid out but not put up yet.

Oh, man. That's. That would. That part would really get me.

That juxtaposition. Yeah.

It's when people were right in the middle of doing something or intending to do something and something like this happens.

It like, it's a weird feeling. So given what they've been told by the 911 dispatcher, investigators expected to find two more victims in the house, but they couldn't locate Terry's two sons, 13-year-old Derek and 12-year-old Alex. So they theorized that if the boys had been in the fire when the house broke out, maybe they flood the scene in search of safety. The case obviously was immediately labeled a homicide because of the way that Terry was found, and now with a potential kidnapping. So detectives were dispatched to the scene and roadblocks were set up in the county to search for Derek Alex now. The initial theory was that Terry was asleep when his killer snuck into the house, attacked him with some large object, probably a baseball bat. And investigators actually believed that Terry never saw his attacker and that once he was dead, the killer obviously set the fire and left the scene. Fire investigators quickly determined that an accelerant had been used to set the fire, which meant that it had spread very quickly and burnt very hot. Yeah. So while investigators were working at the scene, one of the deputies was approached by a man who said he heard about the fire on his police scanner, and he actually thought he knew the people who lived in the house.

Like, he was like, Oh, I know these people. He was later identified as Ricky Shabis, and he was taken in to talk to Sergeant Tony Bane at a command station across the street. Ricky introduced himself to Bane as a friend of Terry's, and he seemed in that moment very anxious to know if Terry was inside the house or not or if he had died in the fire. It was obviously still very early in the investigation. They're still working this scene actively right now. So Sergeant Bane was very tight-lipped. He wasn't going to give out any information. But from his perspective, Ricky Shavis seemed very eager to learn the fate of his friend, which you can understand. But he also even offered to make the identification if there was a body, which is a little weird.

Yeah. I mean, I would at least be like, wow.

Yeah. It was just not something that this sergeant ran into all the time. So Sergeant Bane was obviously still reluctant, like I said, to provide any information. But Ricky's rapid fire questions continued, and he eventually just straight up asked the sergeant, Do you think the boys killed him? Referring to his 12 and 13-year-old sons. Okay.

Yeah. No.

Yeah. So the Question copy. That's a weird question. It's a weird question. So the investigator is super caught off guard now because all they knew at that point was that the boys weren't in the house. Why would this dude just show up, saying he heard this on the police scanner and start asking wild questions like this? And he basically asked him as much. He was like, What are you talking about?

Yeah.

Ricky responded, Well, Terry was an abusive father. And he went on to explain that a few days earlier, the boys had run away from home and come to him for help. Oh. Ricky's interest in the fire, paired with the way that Terry was found, was all highly unusual, and especially to Sergeant Bane. So in his police report, he actually made note of Ricky's presence. Okay. He said, I found it odd that Chavis had not inquired about the condition or whereabouts of the boys, given the circumstances. Because he's not even asking where they are.

He's just like- Did they kill him? That's it. Yeah. Where are they?

And he's not. He's asking if Terry's died, but he's not asking if the boys died. They're all right. It's all a little strange. And he was really smart to add that all in his police report. Yeah. And so he writes that down, and he reiterated to Ricky that it was still very early. He wasn't giving any comments, but he was like, I'll take your information, thanks, and I'll call you when we know something. So later that day, lead investigator John Sanderson immediately went to the crime scene after he was assigned the case to see what he was dealing with. He hadn't been there very long when one of the deputies let him know that the boy's grandfather, Jimmy Walker, had arrived, and he wanted to talk to somebody in Yeah. Sitting down with Sanderson, Jimmy Walker explained that he was actually the boy's step-grandfather. His wife, Linda, was their maternal grandmother, and her daughter, Kelly, was their mother. Okay. So Jimmy said he hadn't seen the boys in a few weeks and explained that a week earlier, like Ricky had said, they had run away for about a week. He said, They were missing all last week until Terry found them in pace.

Ricky called last night to tell us they were back home with Terry.

Okay.

Ricky's coming up again. Hmm. This is the first time that Sanderson, though, hears about Ricky. Yeah. But definitely, obviously not the last time his name would come up in the investigation. So Jimmy told the detective that Ricky was Terry's good friend, who for the last couple of months had been helping out Terry with the boys, watching them on nights where Terry was working. Jimmy said he was really worried about the boys, with Terry abusing them and all.

Like, what?

Yeah.

It's happening here.

It's just very interesting that everybody's saying this. Like, yeah.

Just like, so blunt. Well, this is It's a matter of factually. Just being like, well, you know. He was abusing them. He was abusing them. Everybody should know that. It's like, what?

Why did nobody call the cops if he was abusing them?

Guys, what's going on here?

It's like, if all of these adults know that these boys are being abused, why are- Why was nothing done? Exactly. Why are no phone calls being made. So Sanderson was like, What is the extent of the abuse here? Because I just read that in some of the other notes. Like, what is this about? But Jimmy couldn't really come up with any detailed description. He just said that according to Ricky, Terry was planning to have a long session with the boys the previous night in what he referred to as the therapy room, where he would just make the boys sit and stare at the wall for hours.

What?

But the grandfather heard that from Ricky.

Okay.

So, weird. And it also struck Investigator Sanderson or Detective Sanderson as strange that Jimmy even knew about the fire so quickly in the investigation. No one had been notified yet. Yeah. The medical examiner hadn't even started the autopsy or identified the body. None of that had happened yet. And the other thing was nobody had even notified the family that the boys were missing.

Yeah, this is all very willy-nilly.

It's very strange. Jimmy explained that Ricky had called him and told him about the fire, which he, Ricky, had heard over his scanner. Jimmy said that Ricky told him he'd been at the scene and some of the firefighters let him into the house to see the body, which had not happened. What? The Detective Sanderson obviously knew that was a flat-out lie, but he was like, Why is Ricky, why is this guy Ricky, lying to this grandfather about something so consequential? What the fuck is going on here?

What the fuck is happening? Meanwhile, they're like, We thought we were coming to a house fire. Yeah. And this just opened up a fucking whole realm of shit.

Exactly. Like, damn. So the more Detective Sanderson looked into the background of the King family, the more chaos and misinformation that swirled around between the family in those early hours made sense to him. Like a lot of people in rural Cantonement, Florida, Terry's life and the life of his family hadn't really been an easy one. And in recent years, the family had fractured and didn't really communicate very well with each other. So it made it difficult to get a very accurate picture of their day-to-day home life. Because you call one person and they're saying one thing, you call another person and they don't really talk to them, but they have this information from this time period. It's all a mess. But as best as Detective Sanderson could tell, Terry King had met Derek and Alex's mother, Kelly, while he was visiting his father in 1986, and he was immediately drawn to Kelly. They started dating, things turned serious very quickly. In a short time, they'd moved in together, and about a year into that, Kelly found out she was pregnant. On May fourth, 1988, she gave birth to their son, Derek, and a year later, Alex followed.

Unfortunately, the things that had made them very compatible as a couple, like their quiet personalities, very laidback attitudes, didn't really serve them well when it came to parenting, and they struggled into transitioning into their new roles as parents. Kelly, especially, was very easily overwhelmed by her new responsibilities, and she just checked out mentally and emotionally a lot of the time, which then left all of the parenting and money earning to Terry, who also quickly burned out from exhaustion because it was all on him. According to authors Katherine Mitiko and Molly Barrows, we're going to link their book in the show notes, as Terry, quote, settled into the role of a family man, Kelly grew more restless.

It's like they're growing apart. Yeah, this is not great.

Their relationship had also started when Kelly was 17, so she never really knew life outside of her parents telling her what to do and now becoming a mother herself. She's a kid herself. She had no time to find herself. So when the stress of family life got to be too much, or if she was in a especially depressed mood because she did struggle with depression, she would just dip out for days at a time and just go missing. Only to return with a half-hearted apology, and every time, Terry would take her back. Then, in 1991, she came home from one of her disappearances and announced to Terry that she was pregnant with twins. Hoping to keep her happy and make her want to stay, Terry said he forgave her, and he wanted to help her raise the twins like they were his own, which they were not.

Wow.

So it seemed to actually work out for a bit. But a few years later, Kelly's restlessness returned and she decided that she really just didn't want to be a mom. Her desire was not there, which after having four kids, it's a little late to decide that.

I was going to say, I know people will get mad, but...

You can get mad all you want.

You can't decide four kids in that you don't feel like being a mom anymore. I'm sorry.

You know who won't get mad? People would deadbeat moms.

Yeah, that's an asshole move. It is.

It was 1994. She couldn't handle the stress and the pressure of the parenthood anymore, and she moved out, which left Terry with all four kids Two of which were not his own children. But he was like, Okay, I'll try to figure this out.

That's fucking crazy. Yeah. That's wild.

And they didn't have... Even when she was around, a lot of stuff was on him. Like money earning was all on him. And now you don't have anybody else around. So it's awful.

Oh, boy.

Now, for most of his adult life, Terry King had managed to scrape by with what he earned from pretty low paying jobs. And it had, like I was just saying, been hard enough to keep their heads above water when Kelly was at her best. But now she was completely gone and he was responsible for everyone and things were looking bleak. He did his best to try to keep up with the responsibilities of parenting and bills, but it didn't take long before he was falling behind on payments. He didn't have a valid driver's license at the time. So he was waking up early every morning to catch a ride to work, which was in Mobile, Alabama, so a little further away. He worked long hours as a day laborer. And during that time, he would just leave the kids with different family members who were willing to help. But before long, the financial problems got really bad, and he started writing bad checks to get food at the grocery store. Oh, man. Which is really sad.

Which to get food at the grocery store. Yeah. Like, that's sad.

Yeah. Eventually, that caught up with him and he got arrested for passing bad checks, which I do feel like this might be insane to say, but it's like, if you get caught writing bad checks to the grocery store, there should be some program that helps you with that.

Because you're trying to get food.

Right. Like, that's a basic necessity.

It feels like that. Yeah. That's just a different.

I don't know if there is something that.

Yeah. I have no idea. I have no idea. It just feels it's got a different You know.

Yeah. It's not like you're stealing jewelry.

You know what I mean? It's like mother's steal baby formula. It's like they're not. It's heart-breaking. They're not doing it for the thrill of it.

So at that time, the family was broken up for a long period. Terry kept the twin boys because he didn't have anybody else to give them to. Derek went to live with Kelly's mother, and Alex went to stay with Kelly's father because nobody really had enough resources to take care of all of them at once. Kelly's parents wanted to help, and they did their best to pitch in with what they could do, but they weren't a long-term solution because they just didn't have everything to care for small children. It's a lot. You need a lot of shit. So when it became clear to Terry that it was going to take a lot longer to get his life back on track, he made the impossible decision decision to place all four boys in the foster care system, which is just heartbreaking. So because they were still really little, the twins were quickly placed with a foster family, and they got adopted not long after. That's good. Yeah. Derek stayed in the foster home with his brother Alex for a few months before he eventually got placed by himself with a family of Frank and Nancy Le.

They had worked with the state for years, and it sounds like they were pretty good people. Unfortunately, Alex had the hardest time with the transition and the frequent disruptions because I'm pretty sure he's four at this point, four or five.

This is breaking my heart for these kids.

It's horrible. This was a really tough one to get through. But for some reason, it was difficult to get him placed with a foster family. So he was just in the care of the state, which I don't exactly know what the I don't know if you just bounce around from family to family because you can't get permanently placed. It breaks my heart. It's awful. So at first, Terry and Kelly tried to keep in contact with Derek. Kelly appeared again. And they tried to keep in contact with Derek. But eventually the foster parents, Nancy and Frank, told them that their calls were upsetting and confusing to Derek. Yeah. Which you can understand. Yeah. Like, she's trying to create a stable environment.

And it's like, you can't be there.

You can't dip in and out.

That kid at that age, a four-year-old isn't going to understand. Why can I talk to my parents but not see them?

I think Alex was around four or five, and Derek was around five or six.

Yeah, not those babies.

Babies. The sudden disappearance of both of his parents without any explanation obviously took a very serious toll on him, and it took a toll on his relationship with his foster family. At school, which was really the only constant in his life, he was very focused. He was very well-behaved.

Just shocking.

It really is. But when he got home, it seemed like he became another person. He got more and more defiant as he was growing up. He rejected any attempts at warmth or family intimacy by the lays, which obviously just put a greater strain on the relationship. But it's not his fault. No. It is not theirs. No, it's not theirs. It seems like everybody's trying.

Everyone's trying their best with what they have.

But as he got older, his behavior got worse and eventually included vandalism, destruction of property, and setting small fires. That's so scary. Really bad. I don't know how much therapy was involved in this back then because this is the early '90s. Yeah. So I don't know. But while Derek struggled to adjust to his life with his new family, Alex went through his own very traumatic period. After several unsuccessful attempts to place him with a foster family, Terry eventually regained custody, and Alex moved in with his father again.

This is just like a lot.

It's a lot of bouncing around. And they're very young. And the number one thing that kids need is stability. Yeah, absolutely. When they're little babies.

Stability is so important. Yeah.

So since he'd placed the boys in foster care, all Terry wanted was to get them back. So this was a step in the right direction, at least he felt. But now he faced a new problem, what to do with Alex while he was at work. Alex had just started kindergarten and was only at school for a small portion of the day? Because some kindergarten are only a few hours.

Usually when they start, that's when.

So that left a few hours in the day where somebody needed to watch him And Terry just didn't have anybody who could. So at a loss for what to do- And a lot of people deal with that. Oh, so many people deal with that.

A lot of parents have dealt with that situation.

So at a loss for what to do, he pulled him out of school and just started bringing him to work every day. So now just not going to school.

So now he's just not going to school. Yeah.

So in the years that followed, which I don't... This might sound so dumb, but do you have to complete kindergarten or can you just go right to first grade?

It's not universally required in the US.

Yeah, I thought I had heard that.

I thought I had heard that. It's mandatory. Most other states require school entry by age five or six.

Yeah. So kindergarten- So you can homeschool, technically. Yeah, it makes sense. I think it's just recommended. It's recommended. But Florida's compulsory attendance laws kick in at 6: 00, which is first grade.

It's apparently optional in Massachusetts. Is it really?

Yeah. Interesting. All right. Well, there's that. So he didn't, he didn't end up going to kindergarten. He just went to work with Terry. Yeah. In the years that followed, they moved around a lot around Florida a lot. They lived in a travel trailer, so they just went wherever there was work. So again, not very stable. No. By 2001, though, Terry had finally started to get his feet under him a little bit. And thanks to a close friend, he managed to find a more stable housing situation, renting a small house in Cantoneman, and eventually managing to hold down a stable job. So he was really, he was really trying. Yeah.

He's working hard to be the father.

Yeah. And he also wants to earn Derek back. Yeah. Because now that the twins were adopted, he wasn't going to earn those two back.

Because it's one of those things you would, you hope people do this before they introduce children into their lives. Like, that's the ideal. You should try to be as stable as humanly possible before you create another human being to take care of. But obviously, things happen, and that can happen in a different way. And it's like, but a lot of people, once they get the kids, they don't put in any work to become that. Exactly. They don't want to be better. They don't make any effort to be better. At the very least, it sounds like Terry was making an effort to be a good, stable father.

Exactly. So at that point, he's got a job. He's got a place to live. Like, he's got a place to live. He's doing all right. And he made the of a man named Ricky Chavis. I don't know if you recognize the name. I do. Ricky offered Terry the use of his garage to work on his car. And over the course of a few years, they became better friends. So when Ricky offered to watch Alex while Terry had to work, Terry was like, Oh, my God. Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. And he's desperate. Yeah. So at the lay house, things had not improved with time. Derek's behavior continued to be a problem as he got older. And as he got older, the problem only got bigger. By the time he was 13, his stealing and destructive behavior had become more than Frank and Nancy could handle. And one afternoon in the early summer of 2001, after Derek was caught sniffing lighter fluid on the school bus. Holy shit. Yeah, it's intense. I didn't even know that that was a thing. He's a literal baby.

He was 13.

This is a child. Nancy called Terry to explain what was going on, and she laid out all the ways they had tried to help him and how just nothing had been successful. She was seeking his permission to enroll Derek in a military academy. Terry Refused to give permission and instead obviously jumped at the opportunity to regain custody of his other son, which I get.

I totally understand. That's your kid. My outside perspective is like, he seems to need Structure. Some structure. I don't know if a military academy is the way to go, but again, I don't know a lot about that. I can see why they were like, he needs some structure and this is bad. If we don't nip this, it's going to get even worse. Then I understand Terry being like, I'll just take him. I'll take him back.

Don't give them away again.

I'm not saying either way is the right way. I'm just saying you can understand the emotions involved.

Exactly. So neither Frank or Nancy had ever thought much of Terry as a father, and they really didn't think he was going to be able to continue to provide a decent stable home environment for Derek. They actually tried to seek out other housing options, including sending him back to his mother. I don't know what the situation was there. I don't know if maybe she had done some work. Hey, maybe she had gotten- Yeah, who knows? I don't know. It didn't work out. It took several weeks of arguing and confusion, but by early September, Terry managed to convince them that he was the best option. Okay.

He probably showed that he was doing the work.

I think he did. So for Derek, the transition from the lays back to his father was just another traumatic experience.

It's yo-yoing everywhere. Yeah. I'm sure, again, I don't know what this feels like personally. I was very lucky that way. But I imagine as a kid, you're feeling like you're not wanted anywhere. Yeah. So you just keep getting past to the next person or getting passed back and then pass back that way. Yeah, I'm sure. The kid is only going to internalize that that way. Yeah. Of like, they're not going to see the- You think you're the problem. You think you're the problem. That's like, Oh, well, they're not stable, so they're trying to provide me with this. No, they're going to be like, You just don't want me. Yeah. And this person doesn't want me either. Yeah.

It's hard. That's really sad. I can't imagine. And also I can't imagine going to live with people that weren't your family.

That's the thing. I can't imagine how hard that must be.

I was lucky enough. When my mom couldn't take care of me anymore, I got placed with family. Yeah. I can't imagine being placed outside of that.

That's the thing. That's a whole different thing that nobody can understand unless they've been through it, I imagine.

And you have to remember, he's 13 now. He's lived with this family.

For a long time.

For over 10 years, or at least close to 10 years.

At that point, it's like, that's his family. Regardless of how it's going, that's his family.

And he's lived with them longer than he lived with his own father. Yeah. That's true. You got to take that into account.

And a big chunk of his developmental time. Absolutely.

Like, formative of yours. But so things didn't go well because things were handled very poorly, in my opinion.

That's my opinion. That's my opinion.

And again, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just saying, the whole situation is fucking wild.

There's a lot going We're looking at it from a bird's eye view.

Obviously, I go back all the time and say, oh, damn, I wish I made a better decision there. Yeah. So I'm not judging anybody.

And we're being super careful because we just don't want to be yelled at for our opinions. But we're just looking at it from all angles.

Obviously, this is a very delicate situation. It is. So Frank and Nancy held off on telling Derek until a few weeks before he was to move back home, which just didn't give him enough time to adjust to the idea.

Yeah.

But you can also understand- I'm with you on that opinion. Yeah, I think it's wrong. I don't think it was the right decision. But at the same time, I can understand them maybe being like, If we tell him too soon, will he run away? Will things get even worse? It's an impossible situation.

We've already made this decision, so what if he doesn't want this and then we have to go back. But I just think of it as personally as a parent, one of my children, I have to give them ample notice for fun things.

Yeah.

She doesn't like having something thrown on her at the last second, even if it is this exciting, awesome thing. Like the aquarium or something. Like, go to the zoo or something. She wants time to take it in and to sit with it and prepare for it. Well, that's the thing. That some kids are like that. Yeah. And I don't obviously I don't know how Derek was, but you just don't know.

I mean, he's already struggling.

Yeah, I imagine.

Like all the different transitions in his life. So you're.

So needing time to absorb Some information might be something that would be beneficial to him. But again, there's so much going on right now. Who knows what. That it also maybe it didn't matter either way. Exactly. Maybe both ways it wouldn't have been ideal.

Great. Yeah, yeah, exactly Well, as a result of him not really having enough time to get ready to acclimate himself to this idea, when the time came for Terry to go pick up Derek and bring him home, Derek felt like he was being ripped away from his family before he was ready. Yeah. As they point out in their book that we will link in the show notes, Mitiko and Baro said, Although they'd had difficult times, the Lays were the only family he ever had known, and he was losing them. And he was being returned to what had to have felt like a total stranger. It had been almost seven years since he'd seen his father and brother.

Yeah, this just doesn't feel like a good idea. No. I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to be with his biological parents.

I think it should have been, and this, again, is just my opinion. I think it's got to be a slow transition.

I was going to say, I feel like there needed to be more.

Yeah. I think you spend like an hour over there, you get lunch. You bring him to lunch, you bring him to the movies.

And you start building this trust in this relationship and this bond.

Then you spend a weekend.

See how you two react with each other. You are not a typical parent and child now because you have not had that time to fully bond like a parent and child who are in the same home all the time. Exactly. So it's like you need time to see if you work. I mean, the sad fact is some parents and children don't work. Don't work. Let me tell you. I know it's like it seems like it should be the way that you should always want the parent and the child, the biological parent and child to be together. Sometimes that isn't the best.

No, it's not.

It's just facts. I mean, we have lots of- That's why the system is very broken. Yeah, we have lots of evidence to see that that's not always the best thing is having a parent and child together. My therapist- And I'm I'm not saying that's the situation here. I'm just saying when you're going into something like this, I think it's good to give it some time and really see if this works for both parent and child.

I had a therapist tell me once that you don't always get the parent you're supposed to.

And I believe that.

And I fully believe that. I fully believe that. Some children and parents, like you just said, are just not good matchups.

And you see these situations where step parents come in and just become everything that that child needs and didn't even realize they needed. And the biological parent couldn't or wouldn't. Exactly. And it's like, so sometimes it isn't the biological parents that killed it. No.

Sometimes it's not.

Yeah. Or these adoptive or foster parents become everything that these children needed or wanted.

Yeah. And then that's got to be tough because when you're a foster parent, you don't always get the option to adopt. You don't always know how long you're going to be able to be that person, that child's steady person and in their life.

Loving foster parents are the gems of the world. Yeah. Of the world. Because I would love to be able to foster a fucking puppy, and I couldn't do it because I'd end up adopting all the puppies. So I can't imagine babies. It's so weird. And children.

This topic is coming up a lot lately. I feel like we've talked about this a lot lately, and it's something I do think about in the future. I was teetering on the system of maybe ending up there and maybe not. So it would be to get back, but I don't know. I don't know if I could do it. But I give foster parents a shit ton of credit. So for Detective John Sanderson, learning the backstory of the King family and the years of dysfunction that had led up to this fire and everything else going on was very useful. Yeah, good to know. It definitely provided insight into potential suspects. But his immediate concern was finding Derek and Alex because they're still missing. Unfortunately, family history really didn't provide any leads to where they could be. On the afternoon of November 26, Detective Sanderson and several deputies just made calls to various family members, an immediate family, to inform them of Terry's death. Obviously, Terry's mother, Joyce, and his brother Greg, took the news very hard. Of course. They couldn't imagine who would have wanted Terry dead. As far as his mother, Joyce, knew, sorry, Terry tried to be a good dad, and he worked really hard to support his kids.

She never knew him to be a drinker. She never knew him as a drug user. She said even though he had a few run-ins with the police in the past, those incidents came from a place of desperation to feed his family.

Yeah, just like turning to unsavory methods to get things for his family that he couldn't provide.

Literally desperation. Right. So they told the police that the only person they really even knew Terry to associate with outside of their family was his friend Ricky.

Okay.

So as Detective Sanderson was sorting through what he had learned, he couldn't help but notice that one name just kept coming up Ricky Chavis. An hour later, he was sitting across the desk in his office from Ricky at the Escambia Sheriff's office. Ricky confirmed what Sanderson had already heard from everybody else. He and Terry had been good friends. They'd gone back a few years. And Ricky said he went out of his way to support Terry and the boys in any way that he could. He said, I really care about those boys. Terry was abusing them. A lot of it psychological.

Okay.

So Ricky explained that since Derek had been placed back home in September, which they had just gotten placed back home, the Boys struggled to adjust. Just a few weeks earlier, they'd both run away from home, and Ricky found them in Pace, Florida, a week before the fire. When it came to where the boys might be now, Ricky said they may be back out in the woods. And he said, since they had been found, quote, Neither boy wanted to be with Terry, there was a hard friction between them. You really need to talk to Deputy Reggie Jernigan. He knows what's been going on with the Kings.

' Okay.

So from Sanderson's perspective, there was just something off about this guy.

I I love when they have a gut.

A hunch. Yeah. Yeah. He claimed to be Terry King's closest friend and somebody who cared very deeply about this family. But at the same time, he's sitting here saying Terry's an abusive father. Yeah. But he's one of my closest friends, and I love his kids. Then there was also the matter of Ricky Shavis having lied to Jimmy Walker about going into the house and seeing the body, which Ricky claimed was just a misunderstanding.

What?

Because remember- How do you create a misunderstanding about that? I have no idea. But remember, He literally told their step grandfather that he went in and saw the body.

You don't just accidentally say that. No.

So he was like, a misunderstanding. Okay. But what struck Detective Sanderson most was the way that Ricky kept steering the conversation back to this opposed abuse. According to Ricky, the abuse was almost entirely psychological. He said, Alex told me once that on the weekends, they go through therapy and they can't talk. Terry makes them stare at each other for hours. And he said, When Terry was work, the boys were told to stay inside and lock the doors. He said, They couldn't talk to nobody until Terry picked them up and took them to work with him. Which making them stare at the walls for hours, that's probably abusive, in my opinion.

That's in my opinion. To me, that's abusive.

Some psychological abuse.

That's very abusive.

But when you're not home and you tell them they're 13 and 12.

And you say, Lock the doors and don't answer it for anyone?

I think that's just good parenting. If you're not going to be there. Yeah, I would say. That's pretty standard. When I left at home, when I was that age, it was like, yeah, don't open the door for anybody.

I feel like it would be worse if he was like, unlock the door and welcome strangers in. That would be bad. I feel like that's not good parenting. Yeah. But saying, Lock the door and don't talk to anyone until I get here?

Sounds pretty careful. Yeah.

Don't talk to anyone. You can't trust anyone out here on these streets.

So like Jimmy Walker, Ricky seemed very determined to convey to the detective that Terry was abusive, but he seemed unable to describe the abuse in any way that really made sense. Yeah. Alex's supposed description of the therapy was very strange, but nothing Sanderson heard sounded like straight up abuse. And remember, this was like 25 years ago. Yeah.

So to them, they're like, what?

So staring at the wall sounds abusive to us now. I think it just sounded weird to them back then.

Yeah, exactly.

Then, like we were just saying, for a single parent to require their kids to stay inside while they were home alone just sounded reasonable to him.

I'm like, Is there something else here?

Yeah.

He was like, Am I missing Okay, I think that's pretty normal.

So something on the detective's face must have showed what he was thinking, because as Ricky pressed on, things clearly started to get more dire. He said, I never saw any physical abuse between Terry and the boys, but Alex did tell me his dad hit him before.

Oh, so now we're getting more intense. Yeah.

So obviously that gets Detective Sanderson's attention.

Of course.

And Ricky continued on explaining. He said, Alex didn't like his dad, and Derek told me he wished his dad was dead. I don't know what happened to Terry, how he I mean. But if it was a homicide, those boys had something to do with it.

Wow.

Just dropped that bomb out of absolutely nowhere.

And after sitting here being like, I'm super close with this family. I love those boys. I do anything for them. I love them so much. Do anything for them. Love Terry. He is an abusive prick, though. And if somebody killed him, he deserved it. And it was probably his kids. How do you get from A to B?

I have no idea.

That detective was probably like, oh, okay, what the fuck?

What the actual fuck?

Damn.

And that is where we're going to break for part one. Because with that bombshell, honey. Whoa.

Wow.

So, yeah, that's where we're going to break for part one. Part two we'll go over when the boys are eventually found, because I'll tell you that they are. We'll go a little deeper into who exactly Mr. Ricky is.

Yeah. Ricky is giving me vibes.

You know what? I'm I'm just going to let you know because I think you already do.

He's unsavory. Yeah, I would think he was unsavory.

He's an unsavory character.

He's come off as unsavory.

I'd like to physically fight him.

I know this. I didn't look up details about this case because I like you to tell me the story, especially if I don't know it. Yeah, same. But I looked up pictures because I was like, why does this sound so familiar? And I know I remember bits and bits and pieces about this, like the fire I knew, and I didn't know these details or anything. But as soon as I saw the pictures, I was like, oh, I remember these.

It's also, I should have noted it at the top, and I'm glad you just said what you did. It happened right after 9/11. So not all of that news, obviously, was all over the place. And this trickled into the media while the boys were missing. And then in part two, we'll talk about what comes out. And that's when it really broke into mainstream media.

Okay. That makes sense.

So a very interesting case.

I don't like Ricky. I'm going to be quite honest with you. You shouldn't. Okay, good. You have a good hunch. You have a good hunch. Because I really don't like him. Yeah, no. Something off. I hate him. Yeah.

But we'll end this on a fun fact.

Oh, yes. I have a fun fact.

Tell us.

So this is an actual fun fact.

Yeah, it should be.

Macaulay Culkin's middle name is Macaulay Culkin. So his name is Macaulay Macaulay Culkin Culkin. And he legally changed it. And he said he literally changed it for that joke.

I'm obsessed with that.

Just for joke.

Macaulay Macaulay Culkin Culkin.

And I think that's awesome.

How do you even yell that?

That's awesome. He did it as an adult, so nobody's probably yelling his middle name.

If I was his mom, I would.

I mean, if somebody would come out. You'd have to be up for that challenge. His wife should. Brenda? Brenda, yell it. That's so fun. Yeah. I had seen like a... I saw a very interesting interview with him. I think it's a mythical kitchen. It's called. It's a good... They sit down and they just eat and talk. I'm obsessed with that. And he was like... It was a good interview with Macaulay Coken. He talks about Brenda and how he wants to be such a different parent than his... You know, like he goes into that whole thing about how he wants to be this amazing to add to his kids.

That's so millennial-coated. We all just want to be different parents.

Brenda made him a better person. It's a very sweet interview. I was like, Oh, my God, I love them now.

I love that a lot. London Tipton. London Tipton. Aka. Brenda Song. There you go. The Prindle. I think of Brenda's song every single time I shift gears in my car. There's an episode you would not... I don't know what that means. You have no idea what I'm saying. If you're an elder millennial like Helena and you didn't watch Sweet Life of Zack and Cody, there's an episode where Mr. Tipton, who is the manager of the hotel, teaches her how to drive. He's like, What is this called? And he's talking about the gear shift. And she's like, The Prindle.

The Prindle?

Which park reverse drive.

I mean, valid.

Yeah, The Prindle.

I think that's valid.

That's what I call it now.

I remember I remember Brenda was in some Disney channel original movies that I actually did watch.

She was like a warrior.

Get a Clue with Lindsay Lohan.

Holy shit. You just literally unlocked something in my brain. She was in a really good one that I can't think of the name.

I know. I was thinking that, too.

It was like a warrior one. Wendy Wu, Homecoming Warrior. Oh my God. Wendy Wu, Homecoming Warrior. I love that.

I love that. That did slap. I remember Get a Clue, and I think, yeah.

I forgot that she was in Get a Clue. Yeah, she really killed it. She's also on the social network.

Oh, she was. She was in the social network. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She really killed it.

She's a queen.

I love her. This is now just us talking about Brenda's song, but that's okay with me.

These are fun facts as well. Yeah, they are. The movies that Brenda was in.

These are all fun facts.

All right, guys. Well, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening, and we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that given the option, you don't change your middle name to your first and last name legally. Yeah. I'm obsessed. Do that. What would it be? Ash, Ash, Kell, Kell.

Yeah. I like that.

And you'd be Elaina, Elaina- O'Leana O'Kart.

O'kart.

Yeah.

White.

I love it. That would be a lot. White. It would be a lot. I think it's great. Bye. Bye. Bye.