Transcript of The Murder of Kitty Genovese

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

And I'm Elaina. And this is Morbid. This is morbid.

It's morbid at two o'clock.

Yeah, I've had falafel and hummus.

I've had falafel and garlic dip. Hell, yeah. And I'm having a little Olliepop.

Oh, my God. Having a little Sody break. I'm having a little strawberries cream Dr. Peppy.

I hate to admit how good those actually are. They are.

They're so good. They're not extra. They're not super sweet.

I really don't like it.

No. But yeah, it's been a pretty good day today.

It's been such a good day. I'm having a little bit of an afternoon.

Not in the world, but in the pod lab.

No, not in the world.

I don't need to clarify that.

The world is pretty awful right now. But the pod lab day has been solid.

It has been.

I started the day with a big ass Mason jar coffee, so I knew it was going to be a good one.

Oh, see, that's smart.

I'm crashing I'm watching a little bit, but that's what the ollypop is for.

You're going to ride that ollypop.

You're going to ride that.

Oh, you know what? I started my day off really well. What did you start your day off doing? So you know how I've been telling you guys? Like, do you know... Joy. But don't be hard on yourself. Like, do it small. So I'm not being hard on myself is what I'm saying. And so I was like, I need to start waking up earlier, before the house. I got in a good habit of that, and then I fell out of it. And so now I'm like, okay, my problem is I go too hard, too fast. I put too much pressure on myself.

And that's not how you have it stacked.

That is not how you have it stacked. And I've learned this. So I said, okay, for a couple of weeks, get used to waking up early. Don't do anything productive when you wake up early. Get your coffee, sit quietly, do something that's enjoyable. Don't feel like you have to be productive. Just get used to that early morning thing. So I'm in the middle of that and I'm doing well, everybody. Good job. And this morning I said, you don't have to be productive yet. It's not next week. Do this for a week. We restart on Monday. I made my coffee and then I sat down and I said, I should watch something. Yeah. Because no one's awake to be loud.

I know. And you actually could have watched something fucking horrifying. I almost did. It's surprising that you didn't, actually.

Here's the funny part. So I go into my Netflix or Prime, and I'm looking through it and I'm like, Oh, I'm going to watch a horror movie because no one's awake. I can do this. That's what I would have expected. So I was going to watch Scream or something. I was like, just a comfort thing. And then I flipped by and I saw Center Stage.

A great pick.

The movie Center Enter Motherfucking Stage. A wonderful pick. The one with Jemira Quai's Canteet. Yes.

Yeah, of course. That one. I haven't seen. I probably haven't seen Center Stage since you were pregnant, and we watched it at the apartment.

That's the last time I watched it. Yeah. And then before that was when I was in high school.

Earlier, I was like, oh, my God, I haven't seen that movie in a few years. I'm like, that's literally 10 years, almost.

I saw it and it's something deep within my... It's from 2000. It is a 26-year-old movie. I saw this when it came out. We watched this. Debbie will tell you we watch this constantly. Constantly. Constantly. And I saw it and something deep in my soul said, Bitch, you watch that right now.

See, now I have a question for you. I think I know the answer, and I think we vary. Out of these two iconic dance movies, which do you pick? Center Stage or Save the Last Dance? Center Stage. Center Stage. Save the Last Dance. Save the Last Dance is my absolute favorite.

Save the Last Dance is great. I might watch that later. I'm taking nothing away from that chair routine. I will take nothing away from that. You better not. Nothing. Oh, wow.

It's iconic. Oh, wow. I'm like, I can't just move on from that. Maybe I'll wake up early and watch that tomorrow.

I'm telling you, it started my day off because it was the nostalgia that this movie brought me. The girl who plays Maureen was in all those movies during that time period. What is her name? I need to find it now because I saw her and I said, Oh, you and me. We've been through so much. You and Maureen. Me and Maureen, because she was in Ten Things I hate About You. She was in Drive Me Crazy. Remember that banger of a film?

Oh, my God. Crossover with Center Stage and Save the Lost Dance. Ten Things I hate About You.

There you go. Julia Style. We got it. Who is it that plays Maureen? I'm looking it up right now. Susan May Pratt.

Oh, wait.

What else is she in? She was the girl who was obsessed with Shakespeare, in love with Shakespeare and 10 Things I hate about You. Yeah. And she's like the bitch in Drive Me She's in so many things of that time. And then she just went away. And I read, and of course, because I am who I am as a human, as I'm watching this, I was like, What is that lady up to right now? And I looked and I found an article where she was like, Yeah, I was in all these things in the early 2000s. I was in every teen movie. And then nothing happened after that.

And I was like, Susan May.

Justice for Susan May Pratt is what I say because she was iconic.

It's really tough for people with three first names. Yeah. People with their first name's going to get a bad rep.

Also, fun little fact that my hyper fixation journey.

Tell me everything.

She had no ballet experience before center stage. Wow. Blew my fucking mind. I know. That's actually insane. And she played the star ballet dancer. Yeah.

That's actually nuts. Yeah.

So there's that. Zoe Saldana is in that, and she is a godess.

I got to watch this. I haven't seen this in so long.

Guys, I highly recommend watching Center Stage at 5: 30 in the morning. Check it. With a hot coffee.

Let's fucking go, girls.

I highly recommend Feeling Blue. Watch Center Stage at 5: 30 in the morning.

She's been in a really good mood today, folks.

I have. It set me right. I love it. It set me right. I may watch Drive Me Crazy tomorrow morning.

That would be a reckless way to start off your morning.

It absolutely would.

And I'm ready. In the best way.

I'm ready. I'm ready for it.

I don't think I could watch Save the Last Dance first thing in the morning because I cry.

No, that's not a first. You don't need to cry.

No, not first thing in the morning.

You don't need deep emotions. You need teen nostalgia.

It's what you need. Yeah. I just woke up from a really scary dream this morning. You did. That there was a robber in your house on the camera. I hate that. But then we were also getting dinner with Patricia Atchell from Southern Charms. Which is wild. And I was lost in Ms. Path's house, and I couldn't get to anybody.

I would get lost in that house.

That house is gorgeous. No. That's one of those not my house, but I'd know my way around houses. Yes.

That's honestly... Yeah. That house? Gorgeous. I'm obsessed with It's just on the road, I guess.

People have driven past it and they're like, it's literally just right there. That's just... Not to triangulate Ms. Path's location.

I mean, it's on Southern Charm. It's a pretty iconic house. It is. But yeah. And it was like the burglar from the Sims.

No, but it was a lot scarier than that. It was dressed like that, but it didn't have the big, what's the thing over?

Plumb bob?

Yeah, did not have a plumb bob. Remember when you had a plumb bob? Yeah, that was awesome. It was scary. It was saying creepy things into the camera and I was trying to get to you, but I was lost in Ms. Pat's.

I hate I mean, you get lost in Ms. Pat's. What can you do?

I wouldn't. But it was in your old apartment, which was super weird. I was very transported. Then I hate a dream that you wake up from first thing in the morning like that. Where it's like, I wasn't like, I didn't wake up, like shrieking or anything, but it was just like, unsettling. Yeah.

I don't like that. Yeah.

And then I ran into my neighbor who was the nicest lady, and she was so put together. I was wearing, one hadn't brushed my teeth yet. I was wearing cherry pants. Yeah. And drew shoes. Hell, yeah. It was really embarrassing.

That's why I'm really happy that it seems like my whole neighborhood is very the same in the morning. This woman- It feels like we're all just rolling out there in some sweat pants.

I think she has a job to go to that's not- That she has to look nice early. Yeah, I think she has to look nice, and she looked great. In fact, I told her she had great loavers while I was wearing my husband's shoes. That's nice. My husband's van clompers.

But you know what? You threw a compliment to somebody first thing in the morning. I did. She started her day off, right?

I did. And Dolo's day started off, right? She fucking loves our neighbor's dog.

So there you go.

Yeah, you do what you can.

So that's starting your day.

Starting your day? Starting your day with us. Maybe you're starting your day with us right now and you're like, wow, this is ridiculous.

You're like, holy shit, what are you guys doing? Well, if you need one more thing to do, maybe go pre order the Butcher Legacy, the third book in my series. What's the link? You can get it at butcherlegacy. Com. You can get it anywhere you want. I believe there are still some signed copies left at Barnes & Noble, but there's a limited amount. So go. Those are only at Barnes & Noble right now, the signed copies. But go grab them wherever you want.

And there's special editions with fun illustrations and sprayed edges.

There is. That's fun. So go get whatever one you feel you are drawn to. But go pre-order it. There's an option for all.

Also, check out, if you're listening to the rewatcher, continue to do so, please. And if you're not, what the heck?

Come on. Trueblood is so fun.

Trueblood is really, really good.

We're having a blast.

We are going to be covering next Wednesday, the penultimate episode, and then obviously the season finale the week after that. So tune in.

It's going to be awesome because Ash is going to find out the identification of a serial killer on Trueblood.

I have so many theories.

I can't wait for her to find out.

I'm so excited, but I'm also so nervous. I hate being wrong.

I know. I'm excited for you to find out. But yeah, join us over there. It's a lot of fun. And I think that's... I shouldn't say that's all business, but you know. That's all our business. That's all our business and pleasure, I would say. Check it. But let's get into the case, shall we? We shall. So the case I have today for us. Tell me. Is the murder of Katie Genovese.

I did take a psychology class in college. Got a bunch. So I am familiar with this.

A lot of people should be familiar with this. If you took any psychology classes or any true crime or true crime, any criminal justice classes, anything like that in school, usually they They bring this up. They cover this. So this case is wild.

It's very tragic.

It's very sad and very tragic. And trigger warning because it's like, very brutal. So let's talk about first who Katie Genevies was. Katherine Katie Genevies was born July seventh, 1935. She was born in the Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York. She was the oldest of five children, born to Vincent and Rachel Genevies. Of the five Genevies children, quote, Katie was the talker, bright-eyed and full of pep. Oh, I love that. The family was definitely not well off financially, and life could be a little difficult. They're in a cramped Brooklyn apartment together. That's a lot of people Yeah.

Brooklyn stuff.

Yeah. And think about New York apartments right now, and there's seven people in there. No. Yeah. But they generally got along with each other, and they cared for one another best they could. It seemed like a good existence. That's nice. By the time she reached high school in the fall of 1949, Katie was definitely one of the more popular girls in school. She was killing it. And she was starting to get attention from the boys in her class. Of course. We love love. One of her former classmates, Angelo Lanzón, said, Katie was attractive, but there was more to her than looks. Katie had charm. Oh, honey. Which Angela. Angela. I love Angela. Just being like, She was real pretty, but she was also awesome.

I think she's a cancer, so she's definitely deep.

She's a chama. Yeah. And while Katie may not have been the best student among her peers at the time. She did Excel in courses like English and music. She seemed like she had a creative spirit to her. Yeah, that makes sense. And she was very liked by her teachers. She was liked by other students. She was just like, killing it. No. Katie. Katie. By the time Katie finished high school in 1953, New York was changing. It was just changing as a city, and there were fears over rising crime rates. It was just becoming wild. Not long after she graduated from high school, her mother was walking home one afternoon and witnessed a shooting in the street in broad daylight. Jesus. According to author Kevin Cooke, Rachel Genevies practically walked into the shooting. She was close enough to see the victim's blood filling the sidewalk cracks. Oh, that'll change you. Yeah. Rachel's one and only experience as a witness to violent crime was more than enough. She has a whole family to take care of. Yeah. In that summer, Vincent bought a small ranch house in New Cana, Connecticut, and began making arrangements to move the family to the suburbs, about 50 miles north of the city.

He told the rest of the family it's safer there. Nice people.

I think that was happening a lot during this time. People were moving outside of the city-city.

For sure. Obviously, the move to New Canaan was supposed to bring them out of the city that they saw as having rising crime rates. But Vincent also hope that the new environment and the higher caliber of community is what he felt it was, would encourage Katie, especially, to meet a nice man and get married. Have some kids. To that point, Katie had gone on a handful of dates with boys at school, but never anything serious that lasted more than a few dates. In truth, the thought of dating, quote, filled her with troubling longings and queeziness. She's like, not for me. To Vincent and Rachel's great surprise, when they announced the move to Connecticut, Katie said, No, I'm not moving. Hello? Yeah. She frankly told her parents, I can't go. I feel free in New York. I'm alive here. At first, the thought of their daughter staying behind in the city was out of the question. She was an adult at this point, and if she wanted to live on her own, there was really nothing they could do to stop it. They could try to convince her, but you can't stop it.

Oh, that's got to be so rough because they're like, Wait, come with us because we feel like it's safer.

Then this happened. She promised them she would find a safe neighborhood and a good job. She would call them regularly and take the train to New Cana on weekends to visit. All right.

I mean, really, what more can you ask her to do?

And although Rachel and Vincent still didn't like the idea of leaving her behind, Katie's assurances seemed genuine, and eventually they gave their blessing and were like, Fine. Now, in that first year on her own, Katie stayed in the extra room in her grandfather's apartment and found work as a secretary at an insurance company. And in time, she'd saved enough money to move out, and by the end of 1954, she'd found an apartment of her own. Her job paid enough, but it lacked the social aspect that Katie had been hoping for. Just a few months after moving into the apartment, she quit her job and found a new job waiting tables. When the job as a server fell through, she found another, this time as a hostess at an Italian restaurant. But that, too, really wasn't what she wanted. It was only by chance that after the hostess job came to an end, Katie finally found what she had been looking for when she answered an ad looking for a bartender at the neighborhood bar in Hollis Queens.

Like you said, she's chatty, she's got a Geneseo.

Yeah, and as a bartender, the money she made in tips was more than enough to support herself. But just as important, the bar in the neighborhood provided a community that she was looking for, especially since her family had moved to Connecticut.

Restaurant, crews get so close.

Really tight. And in time, she moved up from bartender to manager and began settling into life in Queens.

Wow, good for her to be so young and to make moves like that, like legit money moves.

Yeah, she's moving on up. Now, as promised, Katie kept in regular touch with her parents. She visited as often as she could. She was telling the truth. But Rachel and Vincent remained troubled that now in her mid 20s, Katie still hadn't married or even dated someone seriously. They're just being parents.

They're from a different generation.

In 1959, to appease her parents, Katie accepted a date with a man from Connecticut. Seeing how happy it made her parents, she didn't have the heart to tell them she wasn't at all interested in him. So she let the relationship go on, and later that year, they got married. Oh, no. So she really appeased her parents with that one. She sure did. Just two months later, though, the marriage wasn't old. It just wasn't going to work. It just wasn't going to work. All Katie. Katie's end of her marriage was a serious disappointment to what I didn't mention before, is her deeply Catholic parents. You didn't even have to mention it. I don't know if you guys got that idea. You didn't even have to mention it. I didn't mention it because I thought it was implied. But it was not to be the last embarrassment suffered by Rachel and Vincent Genevies in their lives. In 1961, less than two years after the annulment, Katie and one of her coworkers at the bar, Dee Guarnieri, were arrested for bookmaking for taking bets on the horse races from patrons at the bar.

Damn. She She's livin'. Bets are also a big bar thing. She's living. I remember those football squares? Did you ever get those? Oh, yeah. Football squares are huge.

Oh, yeah.

It's a little different with horses.

Well, and it's like the offense is relatively minor. Yeah. Even in the law's eyes. I mean, it resulted in a $50 fine.

I was literally just going to say, Is it just a fine?

But they both lost their jobs. Oh. Which sucks. Despite whatever embarrassment Katie's parents felt that they got from that, she managed to land on her feet, and she quickly found a new job tending bar at Eve's 11th seventh hour, a neighborhood bar in Hollis, and moved into a motel room a few blocks away. Okay. So a few years later, Katie's life would again change dramatically, this time for the better. However, she explained the failed marriage to her parents in 1959. It almost certainly wasn't the truth. Okay. However, she had said was happening. The fact was the queasiness that Katie had always felt when it came to dating and her failed marriage was likely due to the fact that she did have an interest in men. Yeah, I was starting to wonder. Like a romantic interest in men. Of course, in the late 1950s, early 1960s, coming out as a lesbian would have had serious consequences.

That range- She comes from a deeply Catholic family.

Exactly. It would range from being disowned by her family to being arrested or involuntarily placed in a mental health facility.

Yeah, shit was fucking wild.

So Katie had good reason to keep that to herself. Whether or not she chose to reveal that side of herself to her family, she wasn't entirely closeted. And on occasion, she would visit the underground gay and lesbian bars in Greenwich Village. So she was at least exploring that side of her, which was good for her. And it was at one of these bars called the Swing Rendezvous, which is a great fucking bar. That Katie met the first person who she felt a true romantic connection with. Mary Ann Zelenko. She was a few years younger than Katie, but she'd been on her own since the age of 16 and had been supporting herself in New York ever since, which takes a tough She's a rough, badass, essentially. If you could make it in New York from 16 years old. Yeah.

You're a straight-up New Yorker.

One spring night in 1963, Mary Ann stopped into the swing rendezvous for a drink and was approached by a woman at the bar. The woman asked, Don't I know you from somewhere? Oh, I love it. And as opening lines go, it was definitely a tired one. Maryanne was like, I don't think so.

You know Maryanne had been hearing that from the age of 16 onward?

No. And she brushed it off as a failed pickup attempt. But the woman just smiled and said, Oh, I think I do. I'm kidding. So she wasn't deterred by it.

She said, I will continue with this line.

She was like, I'm not embarrassed. I thought that was great. I love that. So the pickup line might have been a tired one, but Maryanne found it pretty hard to resist Kitty's charm and her infectious laugh. Which a lot of people said. She said, We just hit it off. We meshed. I'm very quiet, and she talked a lot. We both had struggles with our sexuality, but we had a quick A few days later, Maryanne returned home one afternoon and found a note from Kitty tape to her door, and it said, We'll call you at the street corner phone booth at 7: 00. Kitty G.

Stop. Kitty G.

That night, they made plans to meet at 7 Steps, which was a nearby bar. From that point on, they were practically inseparable.

Love, love, love.

Katie and Maryanne. For weeks, the two would meet at bars or get together at Katie's motel room around the corner of the bar, and Maryanne said, But that's not real life. Katie was happy, but it made me nervous. I didn't think it was safe. Who lives in a motel?

Yeah, understandable. She's worried.

At Maryanne's insistence, the two began looking for an apartment and soon found a one bedroom on Austin Street in the Q Garden's neighborhood of Queens, right next to the Long Island railroad station. Okay. Now, decades later, Maryanne would remember that time as, One of the happiest years of my life. Oh, that breaks my heart. Which just ruins me. Because you know what happens. They both work days, Katie managing L's 11th hour and Maryanne tending bar at Club Chris, leaving their nights free to spend together. Nice. When Rachel and Vincent Genevies first visited the apartment, Katie introduced Maryanne as her friend. But after that, the question about her meeting a nice man and getting married came to an end. Well, that's good. And Maryanne said, I think her mother knew.

It's nice they stopped asking.

And Maryanne said, She was always very nice to me.

All right. Nice.

But later, after Katie's death, their attitude towards Maryanne changed. Okay, well, that's really shitty. Starting at the funeral where they refused to acknowledge her. I really don't like that. And Maryanne said, I think it was because of our lifestyle. It wasn't because of your lifestyle. It was because of really messed up thinking.

100 %.

You I have to take that blame. No.

I don't like when people refer to being gay as a lifestyle. I know. That has been said to me before and it hisses me the fuck off.

Because it's like, is being straight a lifestyle?

No. Because a lifestyle is It's a choice.

Is a choice. Exactly.

Being gay is not a choice. Just like being straight is not really a choice.

I love a cozy lifestyle. That's my choice. I chose that lifestyle. That's not the same.

I just got so triggered in that moment. I remembered an exact instance.

Obviously, Maryanne is saying it's because of her lifestyle, because that's what she's from this era as well. That's how she heard it said to her.

That's what I'm saying.

That was put on her. Yeah, exactly. Now, regardless of how Katie's parents or anyone else felt about their relationship, Katie and Maryanne could not have been happier. Good. And good for fucking them. They both deserve to be. Immediately after moving in, Katie began setting up her apartment, determined to make it a cozy home because she was choosing a cozy lifestyle.

A cozy lifestyle.

And getting to know their neighbors. Billy Corrado, one of her neighbors, said she was super nice with a smile for everybody.

She sounds fucking awesome.

Katie Genevies sounds like a fucking badass. She does. Now, after moving in, they quickly settled into a quiet domestic life together. And on their nights off, Katie would read fiction while Maryanne painted. They talked about art, music, movies, their shared interest in astrology. Oh, bitch.

You would have loved that. I love, especially to be interested in astrology back then. And Ogie, Astrology, Girly. Yeah. Come on.

Yeah. They really were living this little idyllic just moment together. And for it to be in the 1960s, for them to be a gay couple in the 1960s, that was hard to find. Absolutely. Is your own idyllic bubble together where you were unburdened by everyone else's fucking opinions about it. But they found that together, and it makes me happy that they had that. It makes me so happy.

She's living such a New York life, which makes me so happy because that's what she wanted. That's what she wanted and where she felt free.

I feel free. I feel alive. Now, it's going to take a rough turn. I know I've set you up for this, but it gives me a little comfort to know that she had this idyllic life with someone she loved before this happened. But this is going to be a hard, burn. Now, at around 2: 30 AM on March 13, 1964, Katie finished closing up Eve's 11th hour and headed out to her red fiat parked in the lot. After years of managing the bar, Katie had gone through this routine a million times, and it all felt so routine that she didn't even think to survey her surroundings when she left the bar. She might have noticed, if she did, a man in the Chevy Corvair sitting at the light watching her. If she looked in her rear view mirror as she pulled out the She thought she might have seen this man do a U-turn in the middle of the road to follow her car. But even at that late hour, it's unlikely that Katie had danger on her mind. After all, Queens was the safest of the boroughs at this point. She felt so at home here that it never It would have occurred to her that something terrible could happen.

Well, like you said, she has been enmeshed in this place for years.

This is her home. She feels safe. Now, pulling off the parkway at the Queens Boulevard exit, Katie turned on to Austin Street and then parked in the lot for the Long Island Railroad, ignoring the No parking signs, just as everyone in the neighborhood always does. They said, Fuck that. As she got out of the car, she fumbled with her keys. She probably didn't notice the white corvair slowly pass by and pull off the side road a half a block away. After lingering a moment to lock her car doors, Katie turned and began walking towards the building. The door that led to Katie and Maryanne's second floor apartment was in the back of the building, which required her to walk down a dark alley, lit faintly by the street lamp by the railroad tracks at the other end, but pretty dark. Yeah. Maybe Katie finally caught on to this man who'd been following her since she left the bar, or maybe she simply got the feeling that something wasn't right. We don't know. Whatever the case, she started running towards the street light, and the man behind her ran after her.

Oh, God, that's an A absolute nightmare.

Most women know that feeling. Absolutely. Of running from somebody.

So many people, so many women have been in that situation.

Now, she'd reach the entrance to the bookstore when he finally caught up with her, knocking her to the ground and driving his hunting knife into her back, yanking it out and then stabbing her again. It happened this fast.

Oh my God. That's a split second. Yeah.

Several of Katie's neighbors were awoken by the screams they heard coming from the street. She shouted, Oh my God, he stabbed me. Please help. Please help me. At that, one of the windows in the apartment above shot open, and a man, Robert Moser, stuck his head out and he shouted, Let that girl alone, thinking that she was being harassed by someone. The Sound of Moser's voice startled Katie's attacker, who looked up at the man in the window, then shrugged his shoulders and walked down Austin Street towards his car. He was just like, whatever.

Oh, my God.

Now, with her attacker having fled, Katie struggled to her feet and began making her way towards the back of the building, presumably trying to get inside to safety where she would find help. Now that the scene was quiet again, those who had been woken by the screams assumed probably that whatever commotion that was about, it was over. So they turned off the lights and went back to bed. Ten or so minutes later, 10 or so minutes later, those few who were still awake and still watching out their windows saw the man in the white car return.

Ten minutes later. He came back. And it's like, what was he planning to do? Because she could have her way inside at that point. Was he going to break into the apartment looking for her? Who knows? Or was he coming back for somebody else?

Well, now his face was covered with a wide-brimmed hat, and the man appeared to be looking for something, searching the area around the bookstore. The parking lot of the train station, and eventually, behind the building where he found what he was looking for. Katie Genevise was slumped in front of the back door to her building, a locked door preventing her from reaching the safety of her apartment.

Oh, my God.

What happened next occurred out of the view of any neighbor's windows, so the specific details of the attack are unknown. But according to the autopsy performed the following day by Queens medical examiner William Benson, there were 13 stab wounds scattered over the body, nine in front and fore and back, a stab wound in the throat and several slashes on the right-hand. That's unreal. The wounds on the hand were jagged, indicating Katie had tried to fight off her attacker. But by that time, her injuries would have left her with little energy to do anything. Despite the number and severity of stab wounds, the cause of death was listed as bilateral pneumothorax, meaning the air from a punctured lung had filled her chest and compressed her lungs, causing her to suppocate.

That's a horrible way to go.

After stabbing Katie repeatedly, the man sexually assaulted her and robbed her of the $49 she had on her and then fled to his car. Mm-hmm. Peace of shit. Just moments after the attacker fled the scene, her next door neighbor, Sophia Farrar, got a phone call from one of the other residents in the building. The frantic neighbor told Farrar that Katie had been attacked and was outside by the vestibule. Without hesitating, Sophia dropped the phone and ran down the back stairs. When she reached the door, she found that it would have budged because Katie was slumped against it. A moment later, Sophia was able to get the door open and found Katie, in a pool of blood, moaning and gurgling and barely conscious. Sophia shouted for someone to call an ambulance, then held the gravely wounded Katie in her arms, whispering to her that help was on the way.

I'm so glad she wasn't alone throughout all of that, but she was alone through so much of that.

It's true. And in a 2016 interview, Farrar said, I only hope that she knew it was me that she wasn't alone. Yeah. What happened next remains pretty unclear, with some details lost through time. And others, because one thing that you should know about this is that the myths and untruths surrounding this case are aplenty.

Yeah, it's heavily related.

It's very difficult to ascertain fact from fiction and what's been told through a game of telephone for a long time. Now, several people in the building called the police at various points during the attack. But because no one could tell what exactly was happening, they couldn't adequately convey the emergency. In the most charitable interpretation, it appears the police dispatcher, there was no 911 system at the time, which is wild to think about. It was under the impression that Katie had been beaten up or robbed, so the report wasn't given the highest priority, which, whoa. By the time the real nature of the attack had been reported, nearly 40 minutes had passed, and it would be another half hour before the ambulance arrived at 4: 15 AM. By then it was too late. Katie had died from her injuries on the way to the hospital. Now, a short time after Katie was taken away by ambulance, Maryanne heard a pounding at the door. She said, It woke me up and I was scared. Who Who comes knocking at 4: 00 in the morning? So she cautiously opens it to find a police officer on the other side.

Worst nightmare.

The officer explained that Katie had been attacked and was on her way to the hospital. She had lost a lot of blood and it didn't look like she was going to survive. Maryanne said, I went numb. As they stood there in the doorway, another officer approached and informed them that Katie was dead. At 4: 00 in the morning. So 4: 00 AM, she hears a knock at the door. It's a police officer who says, The love of your life has been attacked and is on the to the hospital, and we don't think she's going to make it. And another officer comes up while you're processing that and says she actually died. She didn't make it. Like, one, two punch.

How do you ever recover from that? How do you process that? And at such a young age, too. Like your mid 20s, That's probably the first person you've ever truly loved.

How the fuck do you ever move on from that? No. I don't know how you've survived. For the next several hours, Maryanne sat in the kitchen with her neighbor, Carl Ross, who brought over a bottle of vodka. Outside, police and reporters were milling about the area, taping off the scene, snapping photos. When Detective Mitchell's sang arrived around 7: 30 AM, he didn't take kindly to the presence of Carl Ross. In his report, sang wrote that Ross claimed to be consoling Maryanne while swilling vodka and acting obnoxious. When sang asked to speak to Maryanne alone and Carl protested, which like, don't do that. Yeah, you got to. The Detective physically pulled him out of his chair and shoved him out the door. Yeah. Angry, frustrated, and probably a little drunk, Ross kicked a hole in one of the first floor doors, causing Sang to place him under arrest for disorderly conduct.

It's like, maybe you're not doing yourself any favors.

It's also like, with everything going on right now. Don't add. I just wouldn't. Because you're also adding to Maryanne's, like shit right now. She's going through enough. It just doesn't need to be about you.

You might think you're helping, but you're very much hurting.

Yeah, you're just making it about you right now and Mary and someone going through this. Now, I also don't think he should have been arrested. No. I think you just tell him, just go outside. Go sleep it off. Yeah, go sleep it up. You shouldn't arrest him for that. No. Obviously, everyone's owner.

He did damage a public property.

I didn't even think of that. In my head, I was like, Oh, he kicked a door. It happens.

He kicked a hole in it. That does suck. Now it's like somebody's got to fucking fix that.

It's just such a high... I'm like, Fuck. The emotions are so high in that situation. It sucks all around. It's true.

They probably just arrested him to get him the fuck out of there.

They probably did because he was drunk.

That's not good. Hopefully, they just let him sleep it off and then sent him home.

I just feel bad for these people.

I know.

This is a lot. The arrest of Carl Ross does reflect the misplaced priorities and bias that would ultimately run through much of this case, though, which is frustrating. A young woman had been brutally murdered by a stranger at the doorstep of her own apartment building.

It's like, maybe let's focus on that.

Yeah, and it's like the first action taken in the investigation was to arrest a neighbor. Can we look somewhere else? When homicide detectives John Carroll and Jerry Burns took over the investigation later that morning, things didn't exactly improve. Oh, great. After aggressively interviewing the neighbors in the building, the detectives turned their attention to Maryanne, who was treated more as a suspect than a victim. A suspect? Yeah, Marion.

You woke her out of a dead sleep.

Maryanne said, It was good cop, bad cop. But the bad one, Burns, did most of the talking. For hours, they peppered her with questions that, in retrospect, didn't seem all that relevant to what happened.

I'm sure.

They wanted to know how long she'd known Katie, who their friends were, how often they argued, and most importantly, inappropriately, did Maryanne have any sexual problems?

Sexual? Oh, because they were saying, Are you a lesbian? Because that was considered a sexual She said, I was still in shock.

It took me a while to realize what he was getting at. They thought I might be the one who killed her. She didn't even know that's what they were getting at. It eventually became clear to Maryanne that the detectives were more interested in her relationship with Katie than they were finding the man responsible for murder her. The more they pressed her, the less comfortable she became.

The other thing, it's like, go ask around from the apartment. A man literally saw the person who did this.

You're aggressively talking to the neighbors. They're going to tell you they saw a man. She said, I didn't want to talk to the cops, especially not Burns, but they harassed me for six hours, trying to get me to say something bad about Katie. Finally, they got me to admit it. Okay, we were lesbians. Decades later, Maryanne would still regret revealing that information. She said, I was always upset with myself for revealing that. What right did they have to know?

It's true. What right did they have to know? But when you were pressed for 6 hours, I'm surprised you didn't say more than that. In the worst day of your life.

Now, in the days that followed, Marion shut herself up in her apartment while more than a few neighbors began keeping their distance from her. That's horrible. Police officers and detectives continued coming around to ask prying questions about their relationship that felt more like accusations than anything else. A few days later at the funeral, things only got worse as Katie's parents rejected Marion entirely and turned their back on her. That's shitty. Katie's brother, Vincent, said, My mother couldn't handle it. We read about it in the papers, the gruesome description. A few days after the funeral, the police finally took Marion's name off the suspect list.

Nice. Couldn't even let her get through the funeral.

Here's the thing. Normally, when somebody is murdered, if they are living with a partner, of course, you ask the partner first. This is a little different. This is so much different. She's outside on the street She's not in the apartment.

The door was locked, and that's the whole reason she couldn't get in.

She was sleeping in the apartment, and neighbors literally saw a man.

Their eyewitness.

It's like this is a very different situation. I would always say it makes sense to ask the partner first because you got a roll in the mouth. But not here. This is not one of those. I feel like they railroaded her at first.

Well, they did it because of- Yeah. They did it because of her sexuality, 100%.

Now, on March 18th, less than a week after the murder, Corona New York resident Raul Cleary was standing outside his house when he saw a young man he didn't know coming out of his neighbor's house carrying a television. Cleary called out and asked the man what he was doing. He said, It's okay. I'm helping them move, as he loaded the TV into his Chevy Corvair. Now, Cleary went back inside and called one of the other neighbors to ask whether the family across the street was moving, which this is a good neighbor. It really is. Hell, yeah. The neighbor said they definitely were not, then hung up and called the police. Not wanting the man to get away before the police arrived, Raul waited until the man was back inside the house. Then he went out to the Chevy, lifted the hood, and removed the distributor cap, ducking back into his apartment before the man returned.

King shit is not even the description. That's next level. That's a neighbor that you want to take care of your shit while you're away.

Yeah, because He's not... All he's doing is making it so that car won't run. He's not breaking it. He's not. He just removed a cap that he can put back when he needs to. That he can put back if you are proven to not be a robber.

Iconic behavior.

Raul. Raul forever. Now, when the man came back out and found his car wouldn't start, he simply got out and walked away down the street, giving no indication that he was committing a crime. It was equally unconcerned a short time later when two patrol officers pulled up beside him and started asking questions about his having been at a house down the street. The young man with the white Chevy turned out to be 29-year-old Queens resident, Winston Moseley. Winston Moseley. At the time of his arrest, Moseley was married with three children. Are you fucking kidding me? Had a decent job at a nearby factory, and most importantly, he had no criminal record.

That is next level.

To their surprise, when he was interrogated by police, he freely admitted to having robbed the house in Corona and even claimed to have committed many similar break-ins in the past. He told police he had given most of the appliances to his father, who owned a repair shop, and could resell them. The officers paid a visit to Moseley's father, who confirmed that his son had brought him several items in the past. Now, despite his calm demeanor, an almost eager confession to robbery. For real. Investigators couldn't help but feel there was something he was hiding. So they decided to hold on to him a little longer for the robberies while they did some digging. It didn't take long for them to realize that Moseley's car matched the description of the car seen outside in Katie's building on the night of the murder. A few hours after Winston Moseley was arrested for robbery, he was sitting in an interrogation room across from Detective John Carroll. Among other things, Carroll was curious about the fresh scabs on Moseley's hands, which he claimed he got from working around the house. Doubt it. Carroll said, No, you got those cuts from Katie Genevies when you were putting the knife in.

Which like, whoa. Just boom. The room went silent for a few seconds. And then with a slight smile forming on his lips, he looked at Carol and said, Okay, I killed her.

Oh, that's chilling.

What the fuck?

Just a father of three?

Yup.

In that interrogation room, cheezing about the fact that he murdered a young woman.

And this detective is like, no, you got those cuts when you put the knife in her body. And he's like, okay, I did kill her.

You're right.

What the fuck?

That's a moment that probably never left Detective Carroll. Can you fucking imagine?

Because you're looking at evil. That's like you are looking at pure evil.

That's like we always say, like one of those things you see in a movie and you're like, all right.

Yeah. And it's like that's what it happened. But it happened. For the rest of the night, Winston Moseley continued giving his confession to detectives, not sparing any gruesome detail. That's such a weasly ass name. Even as he ate his dinner.

He shouldn't have been given a dinner.

He told them about how he'd spotted her when she was getting into her car, how he'd followed her and stabbed her, and he came back after being run off the first time. He even told them about how he'd stolen her wallet and kept the money, throwing the rest of the billfold into the weeds as he was on his way to work the next morning. Moseley also claimed that as he was driving home after killing Kitty, he spotted a man sleeping in his car by the side of the road. He approached the car and tapped on the driver's side window with the bloody knife. Startling the driver awake, Moseley said, Listen, Mister, you shouldn't be sleeping like that. The carbon monoxide builds up. Or somebody could come along and do something bad to you.

Jesus Christ.

The man thanked him for the warning, then drove off. I'm sure. That man's probably like, What? Yeah. To tap on the window with the bloody knife. To say that you're a psychopath.

No, he Absolutely is.

To the detectives, the whole story seemed fucking bizarre. Moseley was so forthcoming that they wondered whether he was even telling the truth. They were like, Is this real? But he had no reason to lie, and he seemed to know too much about the murder to be a false confession. So there was little doubt that Winston Moseley had killed Kitty Genevies. But that wasn't all. After he'd finished confessing to the robberies around Queens and the murder of Kitty Genevies, he also confessed to murdering 24-year-old Annie Mae Johnson a week earlier. The details of that one are remarkably similar to those of Kitty's murder. When they asked why he'd done it, the best explanation Winston could come up with was that he gave in to urges to kill and rape. Well, put him away.

Yeah, forever. Bye. Bye.

When Moseley was done giving his confession, Detective Carroll went to the phone to call prosecutor Phil Cheta to inform him that they'd likely solved two recent murders. Cheta listened to Carroll's story, but after he heard the details of the Johnson murder, he stopped the detectives and explained that Moseley was wrong. He claimed he'd shot Annie Mae Johnson when, in fact, she had been stabbed to death.

Oh, so he was just trying to get credit for a murder?

Well, when Carroll confronted Moseley with the discrepancy, Winston looked unsurprised. Then in the same flat tone he'd had all night, he simply said, I shot her.

It's like, What the fuck are you talking about now?

This is wild. When the autopsy was initially conducted on Annie Mae Johnson, the coroner had to contend with the fact that she had been badly burned across large parts of her body, which obscured some of her injuries. After having the body exhumed and X-rayed, the coroner discovered that indeed, his original cause of death had been wrong. The X-rays clearly showed 6 22 caliber bullets in Johnson's body. Holy shit. When he had originally conducted the autopsy, the entrance wounds had been so small that he'd mistaken them for puncture wounds caused by something like an ice pick. Thus, Plus, he had listed it as stabbing. This new revelation proved that not only had Winston Moseley killed Katie Genevies, he had absolutely killed Annie Mae Johnson. Wow. The fact that they said, No, you were wrong. You told that he just said, I shot her. He's like, Go ahead, figure it out. Wow. Like, what? Now, the murder of Katie Genevies was a tragic event that scarred the neighborhood that it happened. Yeah, of course. But from an objective position, there was little about it that was outrageously out of the ordinary for a horrible crime, unfortunately. You know what I mean?

It was horrible, but it was a horrible crime. Had it not been for the news coverage that followed, it likely probably would have been one of those that we found and we're like, Why didn't we know about this? You know what I mean? It would have got totally obscured in other things. In fact, in the week that followed Katie's death, the murder made the paper a handful of times reporting basic facts. Then came Martin Gainsberg's now notorious New York Times article that changed the narrative entirely. Published on March 27, 1964, Gainsberg's article, 37 Who Saw a murder, Didn't Call the Police. Ignoring He ignored most of the facts of Katie's murder and instead focused on a misunderstanding of the reactions from her neighbors. He wrote, For more than half an hour, 38 respectable law-abiding citizens in Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Q Gardens. According to him, Katie's neighbors not only heard her cries for help, but actively ignored them, knowing that she was being violently assaulted. He said, If we had been called when he first attacked, the woman might not be dead now. That's he had quoted a police chief as saying that.

It seems unlikely that Martin Gimsberg was acting in bad face when he wrote the article. Instead, the article was assigned to him by an editor, Abe Rosenthal, who had been fed the misinformation by New York City Police Commissioner Michael Murphy. What? So this is not like one guy who just made shit up. It's a game of telephone. It's a game of telephone, but it was misinformation that was given. Yeah. And then spewed out. Right.

I remember when you go over it, they're like, It's not real. They're trying to say the bystander effect is not real.

Exactly. Now, in reality, no one saw Katie getting attacked the second time.

Right. Because they wouldn't have been able to. She was in the vestibular. She was in the vestiment.

At most people heard her cries for help, and when they went to see what was going on, she had already moved behind the building and couldn't be seen. As for no one calling the police, that was also untrue. Several people called the police that night, but not knowing exactly what was happening, the reports were marked low priority and police didn't respond as they would have if they knew she was being actively murdered. Now, regardless of the facts, the story seemed to speak to the people of New York, many of who, like Katie's parents, were concerned about the changing composition of the neighborhoods and what they thought was rising crime rates. Journalist Joe Sexton wrote, The killing of Kitty Genevies was first a tragedy, then a symbol, then a bit of a durable urban mythology. That is to say, the story, as the New York Times presented it, confirmed what a lot of people already believed, that crime rates were skyrocketing and it was becoming unsafe to live in these neighborhoods. That all of this stuff resulted in an extreme form of apathy. That they were really making people feel like, What the fuck is going on here?

People are becoming apathetic as a whole, and it prevented them from even doing anything to intervene for this poor woman. Now, to the editor, Abe Rosenthal, the story had very little to do with Katie at all. It was, in fact, all about the state of American society in the mid-1960s. He wrote, 1999, I was interested only in the manner of her dying. That is the power of the Genevies matter. It talks to us not about her, a subject that was barely of fleeting interest to us, but about ourselves a subject never out of our minds. That's a real thing that was said.

Did you just see me, like, Ash actively, backed up in her seat?

Like, it thrust her backwards.

What the Fuck.

I can't imagine.

So he's talking- I'm actually speechless.

So the whole thing was like, oh, my goodness, we're all becoming apathetic. This is bad. High crime rates. Nobody's going to interview. And then he's literally like, yeah, I don't care about that woman that got married. Let's talk about apathy, though. That got murdered. And it's like, did you not step right in the irony of your statement? Did you choke on the irony of that statement? That you're being like, Fuck, we're all getting apathetic. This is terrible. Everybody, listen to this. Who gives a fuck about that girl? I care about me. It's like, You literally are apathy, my friend. That's insane.

You are literally walking apathy down the street.

The point, you just... How did you miss it?

How can you How can you actually lack that much humanity? And also, as a journalist, I'm like, you wrote that down and read it and then published it?

And somebody else was like, Good idea. Like, what?

Hello? Yeah.

Yikes. As author Melissa Jane Hardy put it, Rosenthal's interest was aroused not by the murder victim, but by his fantasy of the reader reading the story, which is a perfect way of saying it. Yeah. She's like, Yeah, he didn't care about a murder victim. He had this fantasy in his head about somebody reading this story and being enthralled by it.

Then you should write fiction. Yeah.

Fantasy is perhaps the best way to describe his interpretation of this case. To him, it didn't matter that Katie Genevies had a family, friends, a girlfriend who loved her.

Clearly not.

Or that an entire neighborhood had been literally fucking traumatized by her death and would carry with them the burden of inaction, however unfairly it had been put upon them. What mattered to him, the only thing that mattered, was that people maintained their fear and outrage that drove them to pick up his articles instead of another paper.

That is so outlandish.

That's unbelievable.

And just the lack of ethics, babe.

Yeah, that's a crazy one. The lack of ethics, the lack of Empathy.

Yeah. Hello?

Yeah. Hello? Hello? In the weeks that followed, subsequent articles appeared in different newspapers all over the place addressing the so-called problem of urban apathy.

Did they put him on the cover of those?

Rosenthal wrote in a March 28th article, Experts in human behavior, such as psychiatrists and sociologists, seemed as hard put as anyone else to explain the inaction of witnesses. Citing no one in particular, Rosenthal went on to say, Most of the witnesses in attempting to explain their inaction said they did not want to get involved. So he didn't cite anyone as saying that. Everybody said that. Except people had gotten involved.

Right. Somebody yelled at their window.

Many, as soon as they knew what was happening, got involved.

Called the police, right.

When Robert Moser heard Kitty's cries for help, he shouted at the man he believed was only harassing her, but got involved when he thought somebody was just harassing her. Yeah. Causing Winston Moseley too briefly, fully the scene.

For 10 minutes.

The only reason Moser didn't go down to see what was happening was that he saw Katie stand up and began walking towards the door, and he said he just believed she was all right. Right. Also, the moment Sophia Farrar learned that Katie was in trouble, she raced down the stairs and held Katie in her arms, offering her comfort and kindness and just somebody being there in her final moments of life.

That's the thing. There was a lot of humanity involved in this and a lot of empathy.

We can't take that away from this. The fact of the matter was, if there was an action, it was on the part of law enforcement who couldn't be bothered to find out what the fuck was going on until it was too fucking late.

That's the reality. It's the truth. It is the truth.

But none of that mattered to the people that were saying this, to Rosenthal. All that mattered to him was that people kept reading what he was saying. He kept building a name for himself. In the weeks and months that followed, he continued to push the apathy narrative, determined to find a way to ride this wave of attention as far as he could. In May of that year, he published a long form article in the paper titled Study of the Sickness of Apathy, where he summarized the public reaction to learning of the inaction of the Genevies case, saying, What the devil do you expect in a town, a jungle like this?

Sir, go elsewhere. Just go away.

In a matter of months, this story had been changed. They had taken a tragic story of a brutal murder in Queens and made it into an alarmous statement of the decline of urban society. And she got totally lost.

Which he didn't give a shit about.

Yeah. In his autobiography, Rosenthal Road of Kitty, her name, once known only to her family and the people she served at the bar, has taken on an instantly understood meaning to all who have heard I'm going to make a broad statement, but I feel pretty confident about it.

Does he hate women? I feel like he hates women. I'm just getting woman hater vibes.

It's not great.

Broad statement, but feels appropriate. You motherfucker.

Yeah.

Can you imagine writing that about any person who has lived? Yeah. That doesn't suck. But a murder victim who was in their mid 20s when they were brutally stabbed and sexually assaulted?

Yeah.

Nobody would have known her name. Nobody would have known your fucking name if you didn't insert your dumb self into this.

It's like this all just fit their worldview. It didn't matter if it was true or not. This fit the worldview that they had of what was going on. And so they just accepted it. And anyone else who had that world for you also accepted this. I was like, Yup, confirmation of what I've been saying.

That's just a fucking crazy thing to write down.

And for anyone else, they simply just accepted what they heard in passing. Life in the city had become so hard and so bad that people were even afraid, too afraid to interview and to save the life of a young woman being attacked in front of them on the street. That was the message. For decades, that was the story of Katie Genevise. Not one of a young woman cut down in the prime of her fucking life, but one of urban apathy and cowardice. It would remain that way until someone finally decided to ask some more probing questions and say, Wait a minute.

How could this have possibly Now, following his arrest and arraignment, Winston Moseley was briefly held in a psychiatric hospital where he was evaluated and deemed to be sane. Wow, that's even scarier. Worse.

In June 1964, Moseley went on trial for the murder of Kitty Genevies, where he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. I was like, you were just found sane. You were literally deemed sane. By that point, he had been charged with Annie Mae Johnson's murder the month before Kitty's death and the murder of 15-year-old Barbara Kralik in Queens the previous July. Oh my God.

This guy is a fucking crazy person.

Which I want to go back and try to look further into those two cases, so we'll touch upon that again. As evidence of his insanity, Moseley's lawyer cited his client's willingness to confess to the crimes. That's not insane. Despite the lack of evidence that conclusively tied him to the murder.

It's a wild, weird thing to do, but it's not insane.

But it's not insane. Regardless of his explanation and admittedly bizarre behavior, less than a week after the trial began, he was found guilty of murder and sentenced to death, but that was eventually commuted to life in prison. Four years later, he broke away from a prison guard in Buffalo, New York, and escaped from jail briefly before being recaptured and returned to the Clinton Correctional Facility in Danamara, New York. In the years that followed, he appealed his case and repeatedly petitioned for parole, but was denied each time. During his final hearing for parole in 2015. Holy shit. What? The parole board declined his petition, writing, You still minimize the gravity of your behavior and did not exhibit much insight. For that reason, they believed he was not fit for release.

That many years later, they still said, You're not showing any remorse.

He was 80 years old and still not showing remorse. That's next level. The following year, he died of natural causes at age 81.

Rest in distress.

Winston Moseley's death probably would have gone unnoticed had it not coincided with the release of The Witness, a documentary by filmmaker James Solomon and Kitty's Brother Bill. Oh, okay. After spending decades watching his sister's life and tragic death be exploited for the sake of a cynical social critique, brought up in psychology classes as like, you know. Bill Genevies decided it was time to correct the record once and for all. He said, There was a lot of things we discovered of the 11 years of research that he and Solomon had done for the film. He said, but basically the most fundamental thing was that the 38 eyewitness story and three attacks was not true, which is wild.

That's got to just shatter your fucking brain, especially as somebody related to the case.

Well, in this poor family, her poor family and friends and Maryanne were told that 38 of her neighbors watched this happen and didn't give a shit about her. That would have been maddening. I can't imagine that.

And that also is going to change your view on society and the way that you interact with society.

It probably shaped a lot of it. Now, most important to Genevies was learning that, contrary to popular belief, his sister hadn't been callously ignored that night. And in fact, there was someone with her in the final moments of her life.

It's like that could have provided that family so much comfort. Had they known that?

He said that. And he said Bill said that. He said that was enormous. It was such a relief.

Of course it was.

About Sophia Farrar's actions that night. He said, My only regret is that my parents were not able to understand that that was the case. They would have been, I'm sure, somewhat relieved to have known that somebody was there. And not only somebody, it was a friend of hers.

Of course, they would have been relieved by that.

In the course of their research, Solomon and Genevies found many people who continued to carry not only the trauma of that night, but also the memory of his sister, were still telling them. She was this amazing person, and that's not what is being told here. In telling their story and in celebrating the life of his sister, Bill Genevies started a larger conversation that ultimately questioned this myth of urban apathy and corrected the record when it came to the life and death of Katie Genevies. As for Maryanne, whose life was irreparably altered that night. Like I said. She eventually managed to heal a little bit from the trauma of her loss and built a life for herself, working as a statistical analyst. Wow, for her. In 1997, she retired with her partner in Rutland, Vermont. But she carried Katie's memory with her until her death in April 2024. Oh. Just happened.

I'm glad she lived such a long life. In 2000- Yeah.

And I hope she was so happy. In 2004, Maryanne spoke to the press for the first time about her relationship with Katie, during which the interviewer asked if Katie hadn't died that night, would they still be together? And she said, I think Katie would probably own a bar, and I think she would be happy. And then she paused for a second and added, We both would. I was about to cry. No, I get it. Then she paused for a second and said, We would both be.

Of course, they'd be happy.

Which just like, for her to have to sit there and think about what life could be with the person you love so much and taken from you like that. They had their whole lives ahead of them.

Those are the questions that it's like, Is that appropriate to ask?

Yeah. I can see both sides of that coin. I know. I don't know. I don't know if it is.

It's like if she had her partner That's really disrespectful.

Well, that's the other thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's the thing.

If she was single, you know what I mean?

To be like, Do you think you would still be together? But even that is like- It's disrespectful to her to put her in that position. She also is diving into something that would be so hard to access, which is like, Hey, go back and pull out all your hopes and dreams for your life together.

That you had to put- That you just had to- Oh, down, down, down, down, down.

You had to To the side. Yeah. When that house, that was torn away from you.

That you literally had to bury.

Tell me, would you still be together? That's a lot for her to have to access in that moment. I understand. I understand the question itself. I don't know. That's got a heavy impact. I'm not saying the person who asked it was trying to be a dick. No, I'm not either. But that question, I'm like, oh, that hurt my heart. I just don't think. I don't know. It just doesn't feel like something I need to, I don't need to know that. It's not my business. It's her. It's her feeling.

I just think that sometimes people can be a lot more tactful with the way they interview. For sure. And that's a great example of it. I don't think the intent was bad, but I'm just like, oh.

Yeah. Maybe scratch that was. Maybe scratch that was. It's not the bad thing. It's just the outcome, the execution of it is not great. And I just feel like she... I just didn't... I don't know. That's not for us. If she wanted to access that, then she can access that. Exactly. I don't know. I don't want to force someone to access that pain. A little exploitative. But I think Kitty Genevies sounded like the coolest fucking lady ever. I wanted to hang. I would hang with her in a fucking second. The whole time I was reading this and stuff about her, I was like, damn, what a cool- Sounds like a great girl. What a cool girl. Then Maryanne sounds like such a badass. I feel like hanging in their apartment would be so cool with her painting and her fucking- Mary, Katie reading and Talking astronomy. Yeah, just talking astrolog, cooking, doing all kinds of cool shit.

We would have been tight, I feel like.

They just sound like they.

Had we crossed paths back then.

They just sounded like she was taken away from a lot of people and people who didn't even know her yet. She was taken away from potential friends. It's awful. That she probably would have had everywhere.

I'm so happy, like you said, in the middle of that, that they had that little bubble for even the amount of time that they did. Even the amount of time they did. That's such a special connection.

And I'm glad that her brother was in like- To set the record straight. Solomon was able to... They were able to dive in and be like, no, she wasn't callously ignored because that's an awful thing to think about for your loved one. Yeah. To think that her parents thought that she was just callously ignored as she was brutally killed. And that no one was with her when she died. When in reality, Sofia Farrar was holding her and hope and whispering to her to make sure she knew she was with her.

That's a good fucking person right there.

I feel like sometimes we always look for the negative. A lot of people want to look for the worst. For the hole in the donut. The hole in the donut. I tell my kids that all the time. Don't look for the hole. Is that a nannyism? It is a nannyism. My grandmother, she would always say, Don't stop looking for the hole in the donut. There's a whole bunch of donut around that hole and you're not even looking at it. I love that. And I tell the kids that all the time when they're being negative.

I'm going to take that when I have kids.

And it's like, sometimes people are great. Yeah. Sometimes that is true.

And sometimes human interaction Connections are great.

Sometimes people are fucking terrible, but sometimes people will surprise you.

Well, the sad thing is, it's like, there are so many instances of humans being terrible to each other. When there is an instance of connection, let's expose that for what it is. Let's hold that dear, not try to flip it on its head.

Exactly. It sounds like people did act. It wasn't an inaction. It was just a tragic, tragic, awful. Fucking Winston Moseley can go fuck himself. One hundred %. Rest in distress, bitch.

Yeah. Fuck you.

Because the fact that he came back. Go fuck yourself. Ten minutes later. The fact that he was scared off and then came back is really scary.

It's also just like, that's a fucking predator. Yeah. What's your fun fact?

So most people are petting cats the wrong way.

How am I supposed to pet my cat?

Apparently, research shows that they will tolerate it for food and attention. Like, they're just dealing with it. But the safest spots to do it are under their chin, their cheeks, and the base of their ears. The worst, their belly, and the base of their tail.

Oh, that makes sense. None of my cats except Remi being pet on the belly. And I always do behind their ears.

There you go. Oh, I love knowing that. Yeah. So get them under the chin and the cheeks.

The base of their tail makes so much sense because once you start going to a cat's tail, it's like the most sensitive part of their body.

That makes sense. Yeah. So, yeah.

Thanks for that.

Pet your cat accordingly. Pet your cat, correct. Come, correct.

Well, with that, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird.

But not so weird that you try to turn things into something that they're not when they actually were quite all right.

Yeah, it's pretty wild.

Yeah, it's a weird fucking thing to do. It gives weird vibes.

It does.