Transcript of The Best Way to Deal with Narcissists Without Arguing | Mel Robbins

As an expert on this topic and a practicing clinician, what are the signs that you have experienced narcissistic emotional abuse?

Self-blame, self-doubt, confusion, anxiety, a sense of helplessness, frustration, powerlessness, problems with sleep, problems with concentration, decrements or lack of self-care of any kind, feeling selfish if you do anything for yourself, being on edge, being hyper vigilant, always ready to fix, feeling you have to change yourself to please other people, a sense of loneliness, a sense of isolation, a sense that you're weird. That's just the shortlist.

Wow. And what is the first step if you're listening to this and you're going, Yep, narcissistic parents, or, I survived a narcissistic spouse, or I'm with one, or I've been in a relationship with one, and I exhibit all those things. What's the first step that somebody needs to take in order to start to heal from that damage?

You got to see it for what it is. And so that takes us to the place of radical acceptance. Radical acceptance is the awareness that this is not going to change. By this, I mean their behavior, these dynamics, this relationship relationship is not going to change. Number one. Number two part of radical acceptance is these things they do, these hurtful things, you radically accepting doesn't mean they're not going to hurt. When somebody invalidates you that you believe you loved or are supposed to love, when they invalidate you, when they insult you, when they criticize you, when they shame you, it will hurt. So don't think that radical acceptance means that all of that goes away, nor is radical accepting It's not a magic pill. It doesn't mean it's all going to get better. It's not that you're signing off on their behavior. It's not that you're agreeing with their behavior. It's that you're leaning into the understanding that this is it. This is not going to change And then the summit of radical acceptance is, this is not my fault. But I'm great. I'm glad when we can at least get the client to say, Okay, this is not going to change.

Why? Because it takes away one of the biggest barriers to healing. Which is?

Hope. Hold on. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Hoping that somebody that has a narcissistic personality style, hoping that they can change, that is the biggest barrier to you healing? Yeah. Why?

Because now your psychological resources are still invested in the idea of them changing. So until we can get that off the table, you are going to still have way too much of you invested in something that's never going to happen, which means that there's not enough of you left to work on your healing, your process of individuation, your process of finally getting to live in yourself rather than in service to them. Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense because for decades with a particular person in my life, I hoped that they would change. Yes. I would twist myself off in knots and show up differently and try a little bit harder and do this and do that and constantly think about it. And what was always there in the background was the hope that things could be different. Correct. And it wasn't until I met you three years ago or four years ago now, and you said, They are not changing, period. They're not even aware that they have this personality style, and they don't care. They don't care. And there is nothing that can do to change this. And when you said that, it was very interesting. I could see it for what it was. It's almost like when somebody says about themselves, well, I just am in the way that I am. People in my life have always said, Well, that person, Mel, is just the way that they are. That's just who they are. I could never accept that because I wanted it to be different. Correct. You're right. It was the hope that it could be better, the hope that this the person would change, the hope that things could look different that kept me trying so much.

Correct. Even though I think deep down, I knew that it wasn't going to make a difference. That is a That ass statement.

Yes, it is.

That hope that somebody else will change is what keeps us from healing.

Would you agree with that? That once the hope got lifted for you, do you feel like your healing proceeded? Yeah.

Once I understood the situation for it was. I was so enmeshed in the situation because it had been going on for decades that I just couldn't even see the situation that I was in. But when I started to understand more about narcissistic personality styles based on you and some work with my therapist, and I started seeing the behavior patterns, and I stopped making it so personal. And I extracted what I wanted and all my feelings and just saw it for what it is. When this happens, this person does this. You can start to predict it because you know it in terms of the patterns. Once I was able as much as I didn't want to, and I think that's the other thing that we don't talk about a lot when it comes to narcissism, is that you can understand all that. But if you still somewhere in the back of your mind go, But I don't want it to be that way, you will forever be at the whim of that behavior.

I wouldn't even say it's so much now that I don't want it to be that way, is that I believe it could be different. The situation I'm hearing from you is you don't want it to be this way. No. You don't. The key, the lifting of the hope, the radical acceptance is it can't be any other way.

That's painful because I do think that's probably why we do stay in these relationships.

You think people stay because they think it can change. Well, you're the expert.

Why do people stay? I can tell you why I've been in this relationship for a long time.

I think that that's part of it. But I think that even when hope gets lifted or taken out, radical acceptance comes. People still need to stay. The reasons for that are often things like practical factors, money, shelter, health insurance, family courts, co-parenting minor children, not wanting to share custody with someone who's not up to it, but the courts don't care. It could be duty and obligation. It could be stigmas against divorce within a cultural system. There are so many other factors. And the challenges, those factors are very real, even when they don't feel real. Like duty and obligation are still perceptions and constructs, but they are very real. It is challenging because to eradicate the hope and that this is how it's going to be, and yet you always have to be in it, what happens then? And this is the hardest part. You say, what's step one, radical acceptance? What's step two? And this is the worst part of this whole process is grief. Because grief, when we think of the word grief, we think of someone who's died. Someone dies and we have grief. They're no longer in our life. We can't talk to them in the same way.

There is a loss. They're not part of our routines in the same way. We think of grief as loss. Sometimes people will extend grief to a breakup or a divorce or something like that. But it matters here more than I've ever seen the word matter. Because not only is there a... It's a loss. Sometimes it's a loss of a relationship. Some people do walk away from these relationships. But what people lose when they give up the hope, when they go to radical acceptances, they lose a narrative. They lose a sense of a future. They lose a sense of belonging. The hope is what was keeping this person going all these years. And that's why even as a therapist, I don't just go in there and pull the hope out. The goal is to build a huge scaffold around the client before the hope gets lifted so that then the person can sit in that because the grief is monumental. If done right, healing done right means a cascade of grief, the likes of which you can't imagine because it's a grief that never really goes away. You don't get a second crack at childhood. You don't get another parent.

A lot of these things don't get to happen again. And so you're having to live with them. These people have not died. Talk to anyone who's gone through a divorce from a narcissistic person who Until the end, we'll say, I was still attracted to them. There's still a part of them I love, but this was not good for me, and I could see it, and I saw it wasn't going to change, and the hope was gone. And then that narcissistic person goes and meets someone new inside of the first week. That's grief.

In the topic of hope and radical acceptance, I think there's a bunch of things that you hope for. You hope for a behavior change. You hope that there's something that you can do that will somehow make things better. You hope to feel loved. And you also hope at times for an apology.

Let's talk about that, because that apology, there's two things that really make the grief worse, narcissistic abuse. The first is the lack of closure. Closure is that moment when it's a deathbed confession. It's the, I hurt you. It's the, I should have treated you better. You deserve more. Whatever it was, some awareness that they did wrong by you. You're not going to get closure, number one, in a narcissistic relationship. But the second piece, and this is what really, really harms survivors, is the lack of justice. It's not fair. These things feel incredibly unfair. The family continues to rally around the narcissistic person and uphold them and save the best seat for them at the wedding. The friends of you as a couple still stay friends with them despite them cheating on you seven times, including with someone you knew. The workplace just moves the narcissistic emotional abuser to another office and they get promoted. The narcissistic emotional abuser who left you finds a new person who's 30 years younger than you and gets engaged inside of six months. It doesn't feel fair. If If you look at Judith Harmon's work on her most recent book on Trauma and Healing, she really talks about how injustice is such an impediment to healing from trauma.

We can heal from trauma so much better if the story around it feels just. I hate to say it, but if the narcissistic person fails, takes a tumble, gets a public humiliation, it makes healing so much easier.

I'm so happy you brought this up because It makes me think of somebody in my life who went through a divorce, gosh, close to a decade ago, and she is still hung up on the ex. The ex was moving in a girlfriend to the family house, 20 years younger, almost immediately, lifelong friends now rallying around him. She, to this day, cannot get over it. I have always looked at the situation and thought, this was 10 years ago. You're not that weak of a human being. You understand it. You know that this spouse has a narcissistic personality style. Your kids know that this spouse has a narcissistic personality style. You know that nothing is going to change, and you just explain why she cannot let it go.

She can't let it go.

Because it doesn't feel There's no justice. No.

Because see, I would argue your friend is fully at radical acceptance. She does what he's about. Nothing he does surprises her. Correct. But the peace and the cognitive dissonance created by them continually being rewarded and rewarded, that is a huge barrier to healing. And there's actually no magic piece to that. I have said in the past, listen, the ultimate justice is that they still have to be them. But you know what? To them, if they're living large with their much younger spouse in the house and the money is coming in, they genuinely believe they've won. And because the other person in the relationship had a full complement of empathy and kindness and goodness, and they feel the wounds, the person who is harmed by the narcissist is hurt and carries that as a real thing. The Narcissistic person just merely found new supply, which is all you were in the first place anyhow, and it feels awful. And there is no quick fix to that except to identify it as an injustice. It's not that you need to get over it. Oh, come on, this, that, and the other. It's this is real. And part of the radical acceptance process is how unfairly this narcissism thing plays out in the world at large.

It's why I do what I do, because frankly, I'm tired of watching them get away with it. And so people say, Come on, Ramony, you're not going to stop a bunch of tech billionaires and all that and their narcissistic selves from ruling the world. I said, That's never They are my goal. I use the products they create, right? But I'll tell you what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to steer people away from relationships with them. They want to go out there and be the emperors of the universe. Great. Thank you for making my life a little bit more convenient. Please don't hurt other... Please stay away from them. They're not relationship material. They're make a fabulous app material. And let's just keep them there, okay? Because they're not made for this. And so I think that it's really to keep people from getting these relationships. But the injustice piece is one of the single greatest. That hope and injustice hold people back, and it can really make the grief a stumbling place to which, again, The loss of hope, the experience of grief, the injustice all fuel one of the major fallouts of narcissistic abuse, which is rumination.

It never fails. I always learn something from you. I'm so grateful that you're here as you're listening Dr. Romani. Aren't you grateful she's here, too? I want to take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring this amazing information to you at zero cost. Don't you dare go anywhere. We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm so glad you're here with me today. I'm your friend Mel, and I'm here with Dr. Ramani Diversula. She is the world's leading expert and researcher on Narcism. We're talking about her brand new best-selling book, It's Not You, and we're talking about the new research in that book.

Let's talk Tell us a little bit about rumination, because I think it's one of the most important things to understand about healing from narcissistic abuse. It relates to the friend you just talked about. Absolutely. Rumination is... Can't stop thinking, can't stop thinking. Now, here's where rumination gets interesting. One thing the research tells us, even from the times of Charles Darwin, we have argued that rumination has a function, right? It does.

What is it?

The function of rumination is a solution. Think on something long enough and you'll come to the solution. Right?

Okay, got it.

And then you do the thing and the rumination, prize, and you feel better. The problem with narcissistic abuse is, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, no solution. Ruminate, no solution, ruminate, no solution. So where many other ruminators are getting to solutions, the narcissistically abused ruminator just keeps hitting the same wall, which fuels powerlessness, and rumination without a solution is depression. Wow. So you see what's happening is that that's why the survivors, they look depressed. When they come into a clinician's office, rumination is a central part of the depression profile. In fact, Darwin and others have argued that all that rumination, it actually leads the person to almost turn inward and becomes part of the process of trying to find solutions in depression, but it gets the person stuck, stuck, stuck in the same way.

I'm thinking about this person, and they have isolated themselves. Exactly. They are basically this once vibrant, amazing person is literally living a very small life, is stuck in the thinking. The last time I saw this person, she was thinking about what's going to happen at her daughter's wedding when the ex brings a new... By the way, the daughter is not even engaged.

And may never get married.

Right. But I'm saying you're exactly right because they're spinning their wheels in isolation on a problem that has no solution.

So it becomes depression. The tricky bit is rumination is a key part of almost every mental health issue, anxiety, depression, you name it. But it holds a unique spot for survivors of narcissistic abuse because they're going through something that most people don't understand. Even a lot of therapists don't understand it, but certainly, they're friends. A lot of people are like, Come on, get over it. He's a terrible guy. You should be happy you're out of it. But they don't feel happy. Find someone you can talk about this about so many times until you actually let it out. Probably the best place to do that is therapy. I have clients I think of some of my clients, and they'll over and over say, I feel like a loser. I'm telling you this again. I said, You think you're telling me the same story, but every time you tell it, you've actually put another piece of it down. I'm hearing the difference. You're not. And every time they tell the story, we're putting another piece of it down to the point where they finally release it. Friends aren't always the best place to do it, right? Because friends are like, How many times have you done it?

I'm sick of it.

I'm literally like, I've heard about this crap for 10 years, and you're in therapy, and this is an issue, and it makes me profoundly sad to see that this ex has moved on and is very happy, doesn't think about you at all, other than to complain about any time something with the kids, and you are living in a mental hole.

Right. And it's still living in service to the partner.

So it's still not pulled themselves psychologically out.

This is really about pulling out all the connections. You know how when you take, you take, a wallpaper or something off a wall, you leave all those sticky bits. You got to get in there and get all those sticky bits off.

I want to take a step back and talk a little bit about the definition of being a survivor of narcissistic abuse. How would you describe someone or what being a survivor of narcissistic abuse is?

So a survivor of narcissistic abuse is in essence, a survivor of a narcissistic relationship. They've experienced all the patterns we've already talked about in the prior episode, the devaluing, the minimization, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the domination, the betrayal, the bread crumming, all that stuff, like being minimized, devalued, all that. That happens. Those are the behaviors. That's what narcissistic abuse is, by the way. It's the behaviors in the relationship. Being chronically exposed to that and not understanding what the hell is going on leads to a fallout in the person we also talked about, the anxiety, the helplessness, the rumination, the regret, all that stuff. And so the person is experiencing all these negative experiences and don't want to keep feeling that way. To be a survivor of a narcissistic relationship or narcissistic abuse is to have all these negative emotional, physical, cognitive, even spiritual. People report a loss of faith, a loss of belief in the world, a loss of trust. All of those things are a byproduct of having gone through one of these relationships. And if a person is not taught what narcissism is, how it shows up in them, what was happening in the relationship, and above all else, being coaxed into radical acceptance, these behaviors are never going to change.

These patterns are never going to change. You can set a clock by this person. Years ago, Mel, I worked with a client who was a tough sell on this, and I did something very unorthodox as a therapist. The person would come in and say, I think that this is going to happen. I said, No, actually, I think this is what's going to go down. She said, There's no way that that's what's going to go down. I said, You want to make a bet? And so at the time, I had an office that was on top of a coffee shop. And It was a pain in the neck for me. It was actually across the street, down across the street. It was a very busy road. It was hard to cross the street. So someone would bring me tea would be the greatest thing ever. I said, I'll make you a bet. And if it goes down the way I say it goes down, you buy me a tea and you bring it to your session. This is not how we're supposed to do therapy. Board of psychology, please don't listen. It works.

Do it.

So we did that. By the time I was done, she probably had brought me 60 cups of tea. I think only once did I get it wrong, and I had to get the coffee once. It was a bummer. I drove. But got it, 60 cups of tea.

So is that somebody who is so disconnected with reality?

What the heck? No, it was the hope. It was the hope. Here's where it got interesting. This is, to me, the more important part of it. End of therapy and said, You know what? Thank you. Thank you for the fact that this entire therapeutic experience cost me hundreds more because of the tea. But she said it was your conviction. She's like, You already had the coaster out for the tea. You were ready for that because I'd know she'd come in with the tea. She didn't tell me in advance.

The tea would show up.

I was like... She said, You were so sure. That assuredness, that conviction, it showed me this had to be a pattern. You weren't a... You didn't have a crystal ball. You weren't a future reader. You knew this as a pattern. Over time, she said, I knew it could be the other way. It's almost like she said, By the 60th cup of tea, I got it. I saw it, and then was better able to predict what was going to happen. So my point in sharing that is that we know this, but the other person needs some... They need a minute. Radical acceptance isn't like, Here's what narcissism is, and that's them, and look at all these things that happen. In fact, one of the techniques I talk about in the book is something I affectionately call the Ick List. And I say to the client, You need to make no moves in this relationship. Nothing has to change. Change. But I need you to write it all down. Every time they do something, and if you're not writing it down, I'm writing it down in here, and I'm going to keep it. And over time, this list gets to the point where you're like, This is a pattern.

And seeing it in writing makes it more real.

What you said about hope is genius, because with this particular example that I've just shared with this friend of mine, I personally believe, if I were to make a bet, that she hopes they get back together. Correct. And And so if this is resonating with you as you're listening, what I want to know, Dr. Romani, is if you're holding out hope that that parent is going to change, if you're holding out hope that things could be different, if you're holding out hope that this person that is narcissistic in your life, that somehow something is going to be different, how do you start to dismantle this thing that you've been holding on to forever that keeps you completely It's completely enmeshed in this relationship and this freaking fantasy in your brain?

Part of it is the writing it down. I know it sounds like a strange thing to suggest, but there's something very different because euphoric recall is a very real phenomenon.

What is euphoric recall? What is that?

Euphoric recall It's almost like a twist on what our minds usually don't do, but in narcissistic relationships, people cherry-pick the good stuff. We did have a really nice time in Miami 10 years ago, and they really did... We laughed so much at that TV They're like, They just... Gosh, our sex was actually really good. Like, euphoric. We picked the good things. That's why writing it down, and writing it down with people who watch the relationship and get the relationship, just getting it all down. Because there's times you're not going to be able to get it down. I've helped a lot of clients write these irls. I'm like, Well, remember that time you told me this? And remember that time you told me that? And they'd keep like, Oh, yes, I do. I'm so sorry. Yes, I get it. And so we pile it all and you can't unsee it then. It's almost like looking at the 5,000 transgressions of somebody you're going to hire. You do realize if you bring them back, these are all the things you did. An HR person be like, Yeah, no, we can't bring this person back. We can bring I'm saying that the more we have the data, that's one big piece to dismantling the hope.

There's the other thing, we can talk about this in the book, is this idea of going into, something I call going into the tiger's cage. So when a client is like, No, it's going to It's going to be different. Remember, Mel, as a therapist, my job is never to be dogmatic and say, Absolutely not. I'll say, Okay. I'm always going to hold space with the client to feel safe to go try something and that there's no judgment. So I'll say, No, I think it's going to be different. I'm like, Okay.

I couldn't be a therapist. I'd be like, You stupid idiot. It is not going to be different. I literally want to reach out and grab my friend and strangle some sense in her. I know that sounds like a very violent thing, but It breaks my heart.

I know. But this tiger's cage piece, as I say to them, Okay, so cage cat. Now, we're far enough from that cat. You're like, Is that a cat or is that a tiger?

It's only one way to find out.

And they'll say, No, I want to find out which one it is. I'll say, Go in the cage, which means have the interaction. Think it's going to be different. Tell them your good news and think they're going to be happy for you or confront them on something, whatever it It pains me as a therapist because you know how it's going to go down. They go in and invariably, if it was a tiger, what's a tiger going to do? Is it going to tear off your arms and legs and tear your throat out?

If it's a kitten, well, you just got yourself a new little pet.

Sometimes they go in and they have the difficult conversation. I'd say one in a thousand times. It's a little kiddy. They misjudge the person. More often not, I get this torn apart person and they're saying, it's a good cup of tea, right? You told me. And I went in there and I said, But this is material, so let's break it down. Those kinds of almost real-time analysis of these things are how we dismantle the hope. I mean, it's almost like an addict in that way, Mel. How many times does it have to pile up before a person hits rock bottom? It's different. It depends on the person. It depends on the person. It's really trying to get the survivor to their rock bottom. Rock bottom is where hope goes away.

I love the ick list. And And one of the reasons why I love this idea of taking and writing down in the physical world a list of all the things this person said or did or didn't do or whatever it was that gives you the gigantic ick is that it's in black and white. Correct. And I can see in my own life that when I think about another person who got into a relationship where there was a lot love bombing and the person they were dating came on way too strong. And huge red flag for me watching. Obviously, when you're in the middle of it, you're enjoying the ride as the person that's getting love bombed. But then the devaluing started. And the lying started, and the discarding started, and then the love bombing comes back. I remember being in conversations with this person, and they had zero recall of the devaluing. But you're only focusing on the good. Remember the time they disappeared for three days? Remember the time where they denied doing drugs, and now you're learning they're selling them to everybody? Remember the time? All of this stuff. I think having it in black and white is a really good strategy because I can even think about my own life dealing with somebody close to me with a narcissistic personality style and how often I'm like, Yeah, but five years ago when this was going on, they were really great, and they had a hard childhood.

And I want to keep coming back to the hope piece because I do see how hoping that something's going to change keeps you trapped.

Correct.

And what other strategies are there for somebody that is listening, sees themselves and is like, But I do hope they change. And it's hard for somebody like me because Dr. Romani, I'm like, But anybody can change.

Anyone can change. A narcissistic person won't change.

Oh, that's a big difference. Anybody can change. A narcissistic person won't. Oh, that stings. And hoping that they will keeps you trapped. Right.

And I think that that can't/won't distinction becomes important. But they're saying, You tell me they can't change. They can't change. They can't change. Maybe that's a languaging issue. I suppose anyone I could, but they won't. And I guarantee you they won't.

I don't know if anybody else listening is having the experience I'm having right now, where I have a pit in my stomach because I have at least one person, very prominent person that I have in my mind in my life, and I'm like, check, check, check, check, They just immediately trash them as they leave. What I want to know is we'll get into what to do. But now that you're really pulling apart the signs, and we've learned that there are two tracks in childhood where this behavior and this personality type is made, what is the impact if you have a parent that is like this? If you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these, or you're like, oh, my God, I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist. Check, check, check. How does that impact you now that you're an adult?

So it's not good. That's the best answer I can give you. It is not good. So let's remember two things. First of all, I'm going to add a 5 B to that list, look for entitlement. Like that idea of they won't wait in line, they're special, they expect special treatment, and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment. That's another There's a sign to look for. But let's remember this about narcissism. It's on a continuum. Not all narcissists are the same. So a person who is dealing with more of what we call a milder, lighter, narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe, narcissistic person. And I think that that has muddied the waters in this conversation, because if a person dealing with a milder narciss, here's the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narciss or saying, well, maybe I'm not dealing with a narciss because I'm not living in terror. I'm not isolated from all my friends. I still think that person dealing with a lighter narciss is still feeling unseen, unheard, self-blaming, and all of that. It's just at a different level.

The reason I bring this up is with the parents, right? I do think that any narcissism in a parent is never good for a child. But at the more severe levels, it's absolutely devastating. What it does is it hijacks a child's sense of self, identity, autonomy. They don't believe in themselves. They believe that their needs are not... In fact, they've been shamed for their needs their entire life. You want something from me? That's what the parents' attitude is. Maybe not that explicitly. But people who grow up with narcissistic parents, the vast majority, become rather anxious adults who are not aware of their own self-worth, who have very inaccurate self-appraisal, usually in the wrong direction. They devalue themselves entirely. They don't trust themselves. They downsell themselves. They don't aspire to things that they actually could do because in some ways, they've so internalized the way they were shamed by that parent. But above all else, they lose their entire sense of self because their parent never let them develop it. Because in essence, the parent really experience the child as an extension of themselves.

What does that mean, when the child is the extension of the parent?

So it means that the child should have no needs outside of that parent. So if the child goes along, everyone gets along. If And they're, mommy, mommy, you're so pretty. And what do anything you want. And they eat the way the parent wants, and they do the sport the parent wants, and they Excel at what the parent wants. And they just become literally the parent and have no identity or need outside of that. Everything's going to be just fine. But that's not how kids work. The whole point of being a child is to individuate and become autonomous. And once that happens, the parent is not interested in that, and they don't like it. So the child will always feel that they're almost in psychological servitude to that parent. They're not allowed to have a reality outside of the parent. Wow.

Let's talk a little bit about this whiplash, because when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent or spouse or boss, it feels like I keep reading these comments from our audience about, on one hand, you're like, okay, there's the tantrum behavior, but you still feel responsible for them. You still feel guilty when you're mad at them. You still want to please them.

Correct. Why? Because there's a guy named Daniel Shaw who writes about this brilliantly, and I want to credit him because I'm going to use his language. He talks about, and it's going to use a technical term, and I'm going to bring it down to what all of us, how we'd make sense of it. He calls having a narcissistic parent. He calls it a loss of inter-subjectivity. That's a real fancy way of saying, it's my reality. It's my way. You're almost a non-entity here. Everyone exists to serve me. I don't want you to have needs. I don't want you to be something separate. In a healthy parent, the child will be sad, and the parent will... Even if the parents are in a good mood, the child will stop and be with their sad child and listen to them and empathize. Whereas a narcissistic parent will say, This is my birthday. What is happening here? Wait, get this kid away from me. How dare he cry on my birthday? It's that thing, right? So the child is not allowed to have any experience outside of that of the parents. And then the parent really expresses the resentment at the child having needs.

Thus, the child internalizes a sense of shame and even guilt over having needs. So when they go into adulthood, that shame and guilt persists because that relationship, a lot of therapists don't address it that explicitly. It's not an easy cycle to end because remember, unlike an adult narcissistic relationship, the child needs the parent. The child needs the parent for safety, for shelter, for food. It's not like you can divorce a parent and say, I'm going to start dating again and see if I could find someone better. That is not how this works. The child knows the parents the only game in town, and identity is very much shaped by that attachment relationship, by that caregiving parental relationship. So what you're learning is that you're a pain in the neck, don't need so much, you're not good enough, because if you were good enough, that parent would be regulated, that parent would be happy, so you're doing something wrong. And the narcissistic parent explicitly and implicitly communicates that to them. I wish you'd never been born. You're so much trouble. I would have had such an amazing career if it weren't for you. A child shouldn't be hearing that.

They'll shame a child's weight like, oh, goodness. If somebody's eating too much, it's because you're a bad reflection on the parent. If you don't look the way the parent wants, you're not doing what the parent wants. Oh, my kid, he wants to play a violin. He won't even play sports. All of those things are the child is supposed to be a functionary for the parent. And so as that person goes into adulthood, I would actually say it's almost a three-part whiplash. There is the sense of, you know what the tantrum is, you see it coming. You then have the experience of, Is this my fault? I need to calm them down. I feel bad. And then you have the third experience that you may still have some good moments with that parent. That parent may be really smart, really interesting, really fun. In fact, a lot of people say, As I got older, there were parts of my parent I enjoyed because I'd noticed there was something fun, but I still felt the shaming and the blaming. And it's very interesting for a lot of narcissistic parents. They like babies because babies are like an accessory, like a bag.

You can take them around and show them around town. Once they stop being bagable and carryable, not so interested in them, not so cute on social media, then there's this long period where that child needs more than it can give back. Then the child gets to late adolescent in early adulthood, the parents interested again. They can go out to dinner with them. They can go to a bar with them. They can go on an interesting vacation with them. They can bring them into the family business. And so now they're interested in their kid. And for some kids who desperately wanted that love, they go all in on that. They're like, I'm going to play tennis with my dad, or I'm going to help my mom in her business because now, now, now I'm going to get that love, the love you wanted when you were four, and you couldn't quite work in the family business. So Now, that's where we get to this idea of the trauma bond.

Okay, let's talk about this, because I know that what's happening as you're listening to this is you're probably going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding And we're focusing on parents right now, but we are going to get into romantic relationships. But I think it's an important distinction that with the parent-child relationship, you are there. You don't have an option. So what do you do now? If you're sitting there listening to this and you're going, Oh, my God, that's me. And I do keep jumping back into the fire. It's like this, Are they super hostile or are they loving me? Did I I did it right, and now I'm getting affection? Or are they trying to annoy me because they're not getting what they need from me and I'm not behaving? So as an adult now, if you're going, This is me, what do you do?

So a couple of things. All right, number one, I am not going to sugarcoat this and say there's three easy steps to pushing back from a narcissistic parent. This ain't TikTok, folks. This is hard work, okay? There is no three-step, five-step, 10-step, or even 172-step plan here.

Okay, I'm going to take a deep breath because I need every one of you to hear this is not TikTok. You need to wake up and realize that, first of all, you're not changing the weather in Chicago, and you're not going to change the personality reality type if your parent is a narcissist or you are in love with one. Okay.

It's okay. So number one is the acknowledgement. And this is the hardest part of all. Although you're this person's child, narcissistic people view all the people around them as objects. Like my coffee maker or my tea maker. This morning, I made a cup of tea. I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea. When I want a cup of tea, me and my tea maker interact. The rest of the day, don't think about it once. At all? At all. Why would I? I don't need a cup of tea. And that's how a narcissistic person thinks about other people. Do I need something from you? Really? Do I need something from you? Oh, yeah, I do need something from you. Now you're my central focus. I'm thinking about only you. But if that team maker waddled over to me and said, Hey, could you listen to me? I'll be like, What? You're a team maker. Go away. This is not Beauty and the Beast. Appliances do not talk. Get the hell away me. You are a team maker. Learn your place. So for a narcissistic person, we all serve a function for them, whether it's their lover, whether you're their accountant, whether you're their cleaner.

That's why narcissistic people always have a team around them. It's always about the team. I'm like, of course, you have a team around you because everyone serves a function for you.

I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor because this is a revolutionary idea for me, that a narcissistic person isn't ever They're thinking about you unless they need something for you. Exactly. And yet, if you have ever been in a serious relationship with a Narcissist, or you were raised by one, you think about them all the time.

All the time. You're ruminating them. They're not thinking about you unless they need something from you or you're a blockade to something they need. You're not signing the deal or because you're sick, they can't go to something. Now they're thinking about you because they're mad at you. But it's so going back to your parents- I'm sorry. I'm like- Going back to that parenting issue. So as you get into adulthood, you are an object to them. So what can I do? What can I do? You're never going to be able to read their mind and give them everything they want. You will never be able to... None of us are mind readers. You're never going to be able to fully anticipate. And what's so sad is people who are all in with narcissistic parents or even narcissistic partners will literally try to devote their lives lives to anticipating the narcissistic person's every need so they can finally win them over, that they could do it just right. So that's not possible because none of us are mind readers.

So what do you do?

At that point, you're like, okay, I can only be the best person I can be. Live in a way that's in line with your own values, right? Now, this is what I'm saying, that this is not an easy TikTok strategy. Because even as you do that, even when the day comes, you realize my parents never going to end, but my parent I'm never going to change. None of this is my fault. It's really just my genetic bad luck that this is the parent I pulled. Again, I am not responsible for any of this. I need to stop taking my bucket to an empty well. They are never going to notice me. They are never going to have empathy for me. I cannot live my life as a sacrifice to them and forever keep trying to please them and not living my own true, authentic path. All of those things are important. Here's the part that I'm saying is never, this is just the work. And then when you tell your parent, no, I'm not coming to dinner this Sunday. I'm not. I didn't feel good last month. I'm taking a pass. Really? You're not coming?

I was making that special thing, and I really miss you, and I'm thinking of you. And I'm getting older. 90 % of people are going to break under that one, and they're going to show up and guess what's going to happen at that dinner again? The criticism, the humiliation, the devaluation, the invalidation, right? So I say to people, you got two options here. Either be with the guilt of saying no, or go to the dinner with realistic expectations, and almost make it a game, like a personal bingo. It's not quite a drinking game because if you took a shot every time they invalidated, you would be loaded before the main course came. But I literally have done this where I'm like, okay, I'm going to collect points at this dinner. For every five invalidations, I'm going to go I'm going to get a scoop of ice cream. And then it's a little thing that pays out during the week. Tuesday, I'm going to get ice cream. And on Thursday, I might get a massage. 15 invalidations is usually a massage for me.

And that keeps you objective, too.

Yeah. And I'm like, I'm gone in. I'm like, Do it again, do it again, do it again. We're 13. I really want to massage.

So let me ask you this question. So should you ever confront a narciss? Somebody's going to come listen to this podcast and be like, All right, that's it. I'm calling dad. Nope.

If we only said one thing in this entire Our podcast episode is never, ever call out a narcissist. We will be giving the single most brilliant piece of advice.

Why do you never call out a narcissist?

I'm going to temper that with it depends on what you want. If you're doing this because you want to say, it's like a got you moment. Ha ha, I see you. Okay. And they're going to rage at you, and they're going to scream at you. And there might be a smear campaign now. And they be telling everybody out there that not only are you an ungrateful kid, but you are the narcissist, and you're the one who's harmful, and everybody needs to keep their distance from you. They will really do such a number on you, and they're not going to change. So if all it is for you to say, I see you, I think the better way to play that is you see them, not change your behavior. Stop being supply for them. Stop engaging with them. Stop taking the bait.

So are you saying if you call home and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is, Haven't heard from you in a long time, you should not say, The phone works both ways.

No way. No. If you know this person's narcissistic, absolutely not. So they say, Haven't heard from you in a long time. And you'd say, No, you haven't. Where are they going to go with that? Because what you've done is you've taken away the volley. They're playing tennis. You need to play solitaire.

Can you give us some other role plays?

So put another conversation starter out there for me.

Why don't you come to Thanksgiving?

And the assumption in this one is, Why don't you come to Thanksgiving? Because this person is committed fully to not going there.

Yeah, they Every day, you got to come to me.

Okay. So you go, this is where... And I'm going to step back before I role play that. I'm going to introduce the concept of True North. Okay? The True North. True North. Okay. True North is a big healing, we call it healing technique. Technique for folks, or at least it's more of a management technique than healing, I should say. True North is that you need to figure out what in your life is worth fighting for. So maybe you're not going to Thanksgiving this year, not only because you don't want to see them, but your kid is playing football that day, all right? And you do not want to miss that football game. Or you do actually have a big deadline at work, the Monday after Thanksgiving, and you want to get it done. Or you said, tack with it, this is the year we're actually going to go camping, or we're going to go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving, okay? Because that's what my family has always wanted to... Whatever, your friends. You've decided to take a trip with your friends. Your true north is what is healthy for you, okay? So you've got to be clear on that.

It sounds like it's a It's a difference between how much guilt can you tolerate, right?

Kind of. It is and it isn't. Because the guilt is... People feel guilt. People feel guilt when they believe they're doing something wrong. To which I'd say, what did you do wrong? You feel guilt if you committed a crime. You feel guilt if you stole something. You feel guilt if you cheated on I'm on. So when people, my clients tell me all the time, I feel guilty. I'm like, Tell me what you did wrong. And that's when I get the pause. They're like, I don't want to go to Thanksgiving. I'm like, Where is... I'm sorry. So help me understand where that's wrong. Well, that's what they want. I'm like, I hear that, but how is that wrong? Because the axiom to that is not doing what they want is wrong.

Okay, everybody, did you hear that? This is a huge takeaway. So if the lights are going off in your head and you're You're starting to go, Wait a minute. I definitely either had a parent that had some narcissistic personality, or I'm in a relationship with somebody like this. The reason why you feel guilty Is because if you don't do what they say, that's wrong.

Correct. That's exactly.

And that's what you are trained to believe.

You are trained to believe that is. And if you had a parent like that, let's say this is even happening in your committed relationship or your marriage, then that's another time when you're almost indoctrinated into believing not doing what another person wants is wrong. And I make the argument about it for me.

This is foundational because what happens is the tantrum throwing. Yes. The shaming, the gas. I didn't say that. Like all the adolescent tantrum behavior- Adolescent, toddler. Yeah, is what actually has trained you to believe that not doing something that that person wants is wrong. That's why you feel guilty. That's why you feel guilty. Holy shit. Yeah. Wow. How the hell do you get rid of that programming?

Well, first of all, is one of the only paths forward to healing is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, right? I don't like that answer. And I know people don't like that answer. I'll tell you why. Everyone goes to the damn gym, and they lift the weights, and they do the this, and they're cross-fitting that, and they're in pain because they want a hot ass, or they want abs, or they want arms, or they want to look good. Why are you willing to tolerate pain there, and you're not willing to tolerate pain here? Pain's pain, folks.

Hi, poppy. Hi, Mel. How are you? I'm great. Lay it on me, poppy.

Okay. I have a question for you. So how does one turn off that voice that's been programmed into our head, telling us that our needs, our emotions don't matter, and we must cater to theirs. So how do you turn that off?

Okay, it's an excellent question. And you don't turn it off, you have to lay a new soundtrack. So if you think When you think about the default mindset, almost like a playlist that runs in the background, that it's almost hard to make it go silent. It's much easier to put a new playlist in there. And so there are two tricks I'm going to give you. So number one... Well, before I get into the tricks, I just want to acknowledge something. Great job recognizing that the default thinking doesn't serve you in your life now. So the fact that you recognize, wow, I have this way of thinking that I don't want in my life, and I'm going to do something about it. So that's enormous, and it's amazing. Can you tell me, what does this default soundtrack sound like? What does it say to you?

So it says that whenever I put myself first and don't put other people first, I'm selfish, or if I want to If I were to do something for myself, it's never going to succeed.

Now, did somebody tell you that?

Yes. My parents, actually. Okay.

All right. So thank you for admitting that. And the reason why your parents told you that is because their parents probably told them that. And so they probably thought that they were protecting you. And instead, they sentenced you to a brain and a way of thinking that makes you feel terrible.

Right.

And so when you can recognize who the programming comes from, it also helps, because then you can separate yourself from that voice, because it's not your voice, it's your parents' voice. And you have a chance to break this chain. You have the chance to be the one that this playlist dies with. You have the chance to create a whole new way of thinking and talking to yourself, and that's incredible. And so the first thing that you said is that you have a belief because somebody programmed this into your mind that runs on default, that putting yourself first is selfish, correct? Right. How does that impact your life?

I get burnout, basically.

If you could program a different belief, what would the belief be?

You know, the word that, basically, it's okay for me to take care of myself. It's It's okay for me to have emotions. It's okay for me to just be me.

Oh, I love this. Your whole life is about to change. Because not only is it okay, I deserve to feel how I feel. The main mantra I want you to have is, I deserve to be happy. Does this make me happy? I deserve to feel happy. Does this make me happy? What would change What would change in your life if you started to tell yourself over and over every single morning when you start your day, I deserve to be happy today? What would change if you believed that happiness was something you deserved?

Wow. I think that my day to day would be a lot better, basically. I would actually get to cross off all the lists that I put down on my to-do I would have self-confidence. I would be able to go out and have a great day with friends. I notice that I hold myself back a lot because of what's been programmed in my head, and I'm done with that.

Well, I'm glad you recognize it. That's a huge step. Most of us sleep walk through life and don't even realize that we have been trained as little kids to make everybody around us happy, and that it's your job to make people happy. It's It's your job to keep people satisfied. It's your job to make sure nobody's disappointed with you. And part of the problem is, is that underneath what your story is, which is, It's selfish to put myself first. You have an uglier story. And the uglier story, which I recognize because I had this one, too, is, People will be mad at me if I put myself first. There will be consequences if I do what's good for me. And so that's what you're wrestling with is that you've connected taking care of yourself with somebody pulling their love away. Yes. And that's why you're scared to put yourself first. This goes way deeper. And so you're doing fantastic on behalf of all of us by recognizing that your own thinking is holding yourself back. And I can tell you're just sick of it. And so here's what you have to start to do. Number one, I want you to name the voice.

Name it? Yeah.

Give it a name. Sally, Sue, Jocco, Raul, Michael. We got to name this thing.

Oh, boy. Vicky, I guess.

Vicky. Okay. So when this default programming comes up, you're going to talk back to Vicky. Okay? Okay. And literally, you can even physically, when you feel yourself holding yourself back, that's the signal that this is default programming. You're going to turn toward Vicky. Like, literally, I want you to turn your body, and you're going to look as if Vicky's there, and you're going to be like, Shut up, Vicky.

Right.

Now, I want to hear you do it.

Shut up, Vicky.

Yeah, but if you don't make your boss happy, nobody's going to love you. Tell her, Shut up.

Shut up.

If you don't do exactly what your parents want, they're going to be disappointed.

Shut up.

Say it louder. I don't believe you.

Shut up.

Say her name.

Shut up, Vicky.

You don't want to believe this shit Vicky's saying, right?

Nope.

What do you want to believe?

In myself. Yeah.

Now, your parents want you to be happy. They don't know how to make you happy. So they're just telling you what their parents told them. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying this is what people do. You are now an adult. You're not to blame for the crap Stop the malarkey, the garbage, the gunk, the generational trauma shit that your parents put in your brain. You're responsible now that you're an adult for reprogramming this. And so whenever your mind tells you something that you don't want to think. Shut up, Vicky. I don't believe that. I believe that if I'm happy, my parents are going to think they won the lottery. I don't believe that. I believe that if I put myself first, I'm going to do better work. Shut up, Vicky. What the hell? You're not paying my rent. Shut up, Vicky. You're not going to the party. I'm not taking you with you. There's no plus one on this invitation. Shut up, Vicky. By distancing yourself and talking back to it, it loses its power over you. And what also starts to happen is the filter in your brain, the RAS, it's now noticing, Oh, you actually care about empowering yourself.

And you're going to see more More and more reasons to put yourself first. But it really does start with, you got to delete that song. Shut up, Vicky, shut up, Vicky, shut up, Vicky, on the playlist in your mind from the past. And you've got to insert the new programming you want to run on default, which is I deserve to be happy. My parents are proud of me for being me. Nobody's disappointed in me. And if they are, I'm an adult, I can freaking handle it. And I got to start taking care of myself because I deserve that. Those are your beliefs, period. And whenever you start to feel like, Here you go, holding yourself back. Shut up, Vicky. And you'll notice, the more you do this and you take ownership for programming your mind, the less Vicky is going to show up. Okay. I mean it. Right. I really mean it. If you believed in yourself, what's one change you would make that would improve your life?

I would be less intense, I would say.

Why are you intense?

Well, just a little story for you. I'm an immigrant, And so are my parents. And they are very tough on me. They're very toxic because of culture, and they feel the need to raise me a certain way. But in terms of living in America, what they're doing to me is very toxic and abusive. So I'm just always living on the edge, basically. And if I could just embrace myself, I think I would be a more relaxed person.

Yes. So are you open to some coaching?

Yes.

So a couple of things I want to say about this. I agree with you. And when you take on the job of programming your mind to work for you, you will be happier. You will relax. And the reason why you're intense is because you have been trained to believe that at any moment, something could go wrong. And that's your lived experience. That is real. That happened. And that is what happened during your childhood. And it will also help you if you can lose the word toxic. Like, unless your parents are abusing you, and I don't know that they are or they're not. But if you lose the word toxic, and you amplify a little compassion, and you say, I'm not saying what my parents are doing is right. I'm not saying that they didn't cause Issues for me, emotionally and mentally and psychologically, but they did the best that they could. And I bet it was hard to immigrate here. And I bet it was hard to feel like an outsider. And I bet the stakes felt really high for them, and they felt like outsiders, and they felt like they couldn't mess up. And I bet they took all of that stress that was their lived experience, and out of fear and love, they aimed it at you.

Right.

And the reason why I want you to drop the word toxic is because I see this word thrown all over the Internet, and it's a very divisive word, particularly if you want to improve your relationship with the people who are engaged in behavior that feels toxic. And so I think your parents probably did the best they could with their experiences in life and the situation that they were in, and that if they truly understood what it was like for you as a child, they'd be mortified and horrified, and they'd feel terrible. Is that a fair assessment?

I guess, for some parts.

Okay. So I don't want to have you have to go into your whole family history. But if there's abuse and that stuff, then yeah, that is toxic, and you do need boundaries, and you'll figure that out with your therapist. But when it comes to not adding more pressure on yourself, adding a little compassion so that it doesn't feel so personal, and accepting the fact that this was a form of emotional abuse for you, that you stressed you the hell out. You have this toxic stress in your body. You feel on edge all the time. You can change this. And you can also change this and change the dynamic with your parents. And the way that you change the dynamics with your parents is by taking responsibility for how you show up for yourself. There's always two people in a relationship. When you change, the energy that you bring into that relationship is going to change, and they're going to have no choice but to change in reaction to it. That's how this creates a major ripple effect, because it has held you hostage for far too long, and you have the chance to not only heal yourself, but to heal this pattern that's been passed down through your family.

Yeah.

What are you thinking?

So for right now, we're not really on speaking terms. Yes, they have abused me physically, emotionally, mentally. It's bad.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. So since you're not on speaking terms and you're seeking therapeutic help, let's first say this. I am proud of you for getting the help that you need, andThank you. I'm proud of you for drawing boundaries that put you first. And drawing boundaries that put you first is an example of you believing that you're worthy and that you deserve to be happy. And that's amazing. Absolutely amazing. And when you continue to start to evict the bully that's in your head by naming that bully and talking back to that bully, you will start to hear and reclaim the most powerful voice on the planet, your own. Period. And you don't need to worry about your parents. The time will come, if it ever comes, when you will feel strong enough, confident enough, secure enough, and safe enough to reconnect with them if that's what you choose to do. And if you choose to never do that, that's okay, too, because you deserve to be happy. You do.

Okay.

What did you get from this conversation?

Basically, to have more compassion for others as well as myself.

Yes. Because part of learning to accept yourself is being compassionate. Compassion for self is super important. You don't You don't have to excuse what somebody did. But when you seek to understand what was going on, both for yourself, for other people, when you bring compassion to it, that's where you open the door to true power for yourself, and where you take control and responsibility for what happens in your life moving forward. You get to decide what happens next. And when you start to change the way that you speak to yourself, again, your whole mindset is going to change. And that will be what empowers you to create a new relationship if that's what you decide to do in the future. But what you're doing right now is you're actually working on the most important relationship on the planet, and that's the one you have with yourself. Right. Awesome.

Thank you so much, ma'am.

I'm really proud of you. Thank you. And thank you for telling me what you told me, because you actually saying, wait a minute. I can hear what you're saying, but there was physical abuse here, Mel. That's you putting yourself first. That's another example of how strong you are. Claim that stuff, baby. Thank you. You're welcome. I love you, Mel. I love you, too. You're awesome. And next up, you're going to hear from a fellow podcast listener who's been impacted by the negativity of narcissism, and she's sick of it. And we're going to talk about what steps she can take and what steps you can take, too, when we come back. Hey, it's Mel, and I wanted to jump in to the middle of that podcast episode you were watching to make sure you knew about a free opportunity that I created for you. It's a new three-part training called Take Control with Mel Robbins. It is packed with science. It is packed with action. It's exactly what you need right now. I know that you are tired of feeling like you're in in survival mode. You're tired of merely coping, and it is time to tap back into your excellence and power again.

Let me coach you. Let me guide you on the steps that you need to take in order to level up and start executing. It's going to feel so great to start winning again. All you got to do is click on the link right there in the caption. It's melrobbins. Com/takecontrol. It is free. It is for you, and you need to be in it. Now, let's go back to to the podcast. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins, and today we're talking about a mindset reset, which is when you identify the default programming in your mind, that critical voice that's constantly chirping away in the background, you're never good enough, you didn't get it right, you look fat. Once you identify that and that you're sick of it, how can you erase that bully and program a new positive soundtrack in its place? Well, Diane is about to help you do just that. Hi.

How are you doing?

I'm great. How are you?

I'm doing all right. Do I have a question for you? I mean, wonderful information from Popy. My question comes more of, what about when this programming and voices are from spouses, friends, employers, and they're just basically building on what your parents or other people have said.

Great question. So the question Question is, what if you've got programming from childhood that now is basically being reinforced by colleagues, bosses, spouses, friend group, blah, blah, blah, blah, What is the default negative thing that you say to yourself?

It's definitely not good enough, and who the heck do you think you are?

The who the heck do you think you are? That a real bite to it. Yes, it does. Yeah, it does. I don't know why I'm going to ask you this, but I'm going to ask you this. Were either of your parents on the Narcissism personality disorder by chance, Spectrum?

I'm pretty close. I would say yes, one of them for sure.

And the reason why I say that is because the who do you think you are has a very hostile nature to it. So I would imagine, and again, I'm just guessing, just guessing here, that there was a level of either hostility or fighting or outbursts or eruptions that were very chaotic for you when you were a little kid happening with the adults in your house.

I've blocked out a lot. I remember more of my adulthood where my ex I was a narcissist.

Okay.

Definitely.

Yeah. Okay. I am not surprised that you blocked a lot of childhood out because what happens is that when you're in a situation that is extremely stressful as a young kid because the adults around you can't be trusted, or they're erratic, or whatever the situation may be, you You live in a state of fight or flight, and the alarm system in your body is going off. And when you are on edge and the alarm system in your nervous system is going off because you don't feel safe around the adults in the house, It impairs the cognitive functioning in your brain. This comes from research out of UCLA. Dr. Judith Willis has studied extensively how nervous system dysregulation impacts the your brain's ability to function. And so if you're busy managing this toxic stress in your body as a kid, your brain's not actually present to make memories. And so super normal to not have a lot of memories, by the way. I do not have a lot of memories from my childhood, from high school, from college, from law school, because I was in a constant state of anxiety. Never present in the room to make memories there.

And what I I want to tell you first is the good news. So the good news is, even though you have been the victim of being with a narciss, and you have had a childhood that was fraught with all kinds of stuff, you can change your brain. You can learn how to calm your nervous system, and you can absolutely change the programming in your mind. And I want you to relate to the programming in your mind as if it was deliberately put there. Because even though a narciss or somebody with a narcissistic personality is not deliberately doing this to you. They are so incapable of empathy. They're not even considering you and me. We're objects. They're just doing what they're doing. But we literally get damaged in the way that we think about ourselves when you're around somebody like that, because you think you're the problem. You think that if there was something different about you, then everything would be okay. And lots of people with a narcissistic personality issue, they actually tell you that you're the problem. And so this was a deliberate programming in your mind at the hands of other adults. Now, the good news is you're an adult, and you can Then take deliberate steps to reprogram your mind.

I'm going straight for like, boom, in the face on this, because I want you to realize that you got to get deliberate about this. That somebody else trained you to think this way. It is a level of being deliberate, as if I said, You're going to move to Russia, and you got to speak fluent Russian. I realize you've spoken... How old are you? Sixty-four. You've spoken English for 65 years. But for the rest of your life, we're going to speak Russian. We're going to speech Swahili. We're going to speak a different language. And you can learn a different language. And learning to shut off the abusive voice in your head and teaching yourself through a thought substitution, a different language is what you're going to have to do. So that's number one. Number two, you're not going to overnight be able to look in your ear like, I love myself. It doesn't work that way because you've had a lifetime of people telling you otherwise. And your brain will reject any mantra that you choose that you have actively I tried to disprove. And so we got to pick something for you that you may not quite be there yet, but you believe in the truth of it.

And what I believe that everybody deserves, I think you can say, I deserve to be happy, or I'm a good person who's trying her best, and I deserve to be happy. I'm a kind person who deserves respect. I am doing the best I can, and that's good enough. There are these mantras that kick the narcissist, You're not good enough, who do you think you are thing, out of your head. And you can say something back that's like, Hey, I'm a kind person. Doing the best I can, and that's good enough. And that is enough of a rebuke. And it's believable enough, even when you're beaten down, that as you repeat it and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it to yourself, because you're going to have to, you will start to believe it. And one final thing that I wanted to say to you is that you know how you said that the program started with my parents, and then it was an ex, and then it was colleagues, and then it was a boss, and it was this. That may be true, but we've also got to start to do the work of catching the filter in your brain.

So yes, your boss may be an erratic douche who calls out the things that are negative or is always in a grouchy mood. But that doesn't mean anything about you. This is where your filter and the programming in your mind scans the world and reads your boss's crappy mood as having to do with you because the narcissus in your life made you feel like everything was your fault. For all you know, your boss's wife is having He's going an affair. He's going through a tumultuous divorce. He's dealing with some issue in his gut, and he has irritable bowel syndrome, which is why he's always grouchy. And he's a really sad, sad guy who can't get his shit together because he has childhood trauma, none of which has to do with you. But your programming in your mind makes you think everything's your fault. And that's also the part of the work that you're going to need to do. You got to reprogram the words you say, Hey, I'm a kind person. I'm doing the best I can. That's good enough. Or, I deserve to be happy, especially after these assholes that were in my life.

You can put a little sauce in there. You can tell I like a little spicy mantra, like something that... Because if you don't quite believe it, if it doesn't loosen you up a little bit, that's not the right thing to say. Because most mantras are bullshit because people pick things like, I love myself, and then they spend the day going, You look like shit. You screwed that. No, you don't love yourself. I need to give myself a break. I'm doing the best I Now, there's a mantra I can get behind because I believe that. And so pick something believable, put a little edge or fun into it, because it shakes the mood down a little bit. And then go to work on this filter that you have of making everything as your fault because it's freaking not. Your stupid parents and your dumb ex-husband, all of whom were mentally challenged with narcissistic personalities, made you think that horse shit. You're not to blame for that, but you have a responsibility to change the way you talk to yourself and to basically go, not everything's about me. Thank God. I love that you're laughing now. You seem lighter.

What did you get out of this?

I I love the one thing, it's not everything's about me, period. It's not all of it. And really retraining the brain, really working through catching those filters. And It's going to have to be one step at a time. That's it.

And here's the thing. Give yourself a fucking break. Seriously. Give yourself a break. Have a little bit of compassion. Wow. I got out of a marriage with a raging narciss. I'm pretty awesome.

Yes, I am.

Yes, you are.

Yes, I am.

Give yourself more credit. And it is true. We get so focused on our own bullshit that we convince ourselves that the world's problems are doing. Most people have so much stuff going on and are so busy beating themselves up. They're not even thinking about you and me.

All right.

You got this. Let me hear you say your new mantra.

Well, quit taking myself so seriously. I'm not getting out of this thing alive.

That's true. This ends the same. And how about adding, I might as well enjoy the rest of the ride.

There we go.

I may as well enjoy the rest of the ride. The first 65 kicked my ass. So let's have some fun the next 65.

And they did.

Oh, my Lord. Yeah, but you're here laughing about it. That's more than most can say. And so I do believe the best days of your life are on the road ahead.

Any of us... I mean, you must know, Mel. You said you know narcissistic people. Tell me they were not some of the most charming, charismatic, shiny, sparkly people you've ever known.

It's true. I think there are two enormous takeaways that I have from this conversation so far. Number one, that there is a difference between their behavior and it being acceptable. You said this thing earlier that made me go, Holy cow, you're absolutely right. Their behavior is what their behavior is, and that is completely separate from whether or not it is appropriate. Correct.

Regardless of their backstory.

Regardless of their backstory. And that's an enormous piece of it that I think I I've explained away so much of the bad behavior and the broken dynamic because of the backstory. And the over-extension of empathy and consideration has put me in a position where I have tolerated the behavior. I have made excuses for the behavior. I have felt bad for the person when the tantrums or the grudges or the this or the that. I tune it out, and I have not given myself the permission to say, Hey, you are who you are, but how you're behaving around me is not appropriate. The second thing that has been an enormous eye opener, because I always fixated on the fact that somebody is not necessarily born this way, that's made in childhood. It's a personality style. It is like concrete. You're not going to change it. But when you started explaining how selective somebody is, how they turn it off and on, how they target you versus a sibling, or they target a certain situation versus another situation, you're a thousand % right. That there is this complete conscious direction of when I'm going to explode, when I'm not going to explode, who I'm going to gripe to, who I'm not going to gripe to.

And that is so empowering to me because it allows me to really step into that truth that is still not appropriate. It doesn't matter what the hell happened to you. That allows me to understand what's going on. It doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Right. And I think that, again, I'm so glad you honed in on those two things, because what I think people are often... They're asking a question, and asking the wrong question, and we sometimes give them the wrong answer, which is, does the narcissistic person know why they are the way they are? To which I'm going to say not really, and it doesn't matter. But I think the thing is that people want to say maybe they can't help it. I'm telling you, obviously they can. And if they couldn't, Mel, they'd never be as successful as the way they are, or they'd be screaming in shareholder meetings. They'd be screaming at everyone. Sometimes they do, but they tend to scream at what they consider low value targets, people they view as disposable. It's pretty rare for them to scream at other people.

That is disgusting. It's disgusting. If you really think about it, if you really get out of the victimhood mindset, why is this happening to me? And you embrace what you're saying, which is the reason why they target you and not your sister, is because they view you as the low value target. They can get what they want out of you, which is the supply of your attention and stepping on your face in order to feel better.

And you're going to come back around.

Yeah, because you always do. So Dr. Romani, I remember at one point you saying after decades of being in a clinical practice, being a professor, researching, writing best-selling books, that you have had many narcissists in your practice. Is it possible in your clinical experience for a narciss to actually change?

Okay.

I wish I could say yes or no. Not enough to make a difference in the health of the important relationships in their life. Micro changes that might affect how they go through the world with less important people. They may learn their pleases and thank you's. They may learn to show up on time. They may regulate their anger a little bit better. They may not flip off the person who cuts them off in traffic. Are they going to be present, empathic, mindful, and self-aware? I haven't seen that happen. One of those old emails I'd get from former clients was a person, a person who was in a long-term relationship with a malignant narcissist. When that person terminated therapy with me many years ago, the person said to me, I have to end therapy with you because you see the truth of my relationship and I'm not leaving. It's unfortunate that this person did leave therapy because 50 % of people stay in these relationships. It's not unusual. And I get it. And there's no judgment. And this person said, I feel ashamed that I'm staying in this. And this person happened to choose to stay because they had a very well-resourced lifestyle There was a very restrictive prenup.

And the person said, I don't think I can give up this lifestyle because I am really looking at a one bedroom apartment for the rest of my days. I'd left the workplace for too long. I'm going to make it work. I'm going to make it work. By happenstance, a few years after the client terminated, I happened to be in a large event where the person was with the spouse. As therapists, we have a rule. We're not to ever acknowledge a client in public unless they acknowledge us, and then rather perfunctually to preserve their confidentiality. So when I saw this person, I put myself on the other side of the room, but I watched. And I could see this person trying to make a horse race of it with the spouse. Five years after that, the client emailed me and said, nothing ever changed. It remained the same way. And at the end of it, it ended up really destroying our child's mental health. And I can't say that there was any self-satisfaction at that email. What broke my heart is that as a clinician, you can see what's coming, especially for the children. You could see what a hard road it would be for a person like this.

But that's not the only email I've ever gotten like that. And that when people would leave and they'd say, I'm going to try, I'm going to try. The trying and thinking it's going to get better is where a heart gets broken. But this person Slated out the thing we know, it doesn't get better. And sadly, what ends up happening is there's more collateral damage, like children and other people close to you. The best I could do at that point was give that person a referral and wish them well. But for that one story, there's millions more.

So one of the other big takeaways today for me is that one of the reasons why somebody that has a narcissistic personality style is not going to change is because you are They're basically disposable. You don't matter enough to them to have them put change ahead of themselves.

To put change and to, again, remember, to really create change, Mel, a person has to be willing to be attuned to their own vulnerability. That idea, there's no authenticity and narcissism never belong in the same sentence because it doesn't happen. So to be self-aware, to be self-reflective is to connect to our vulnerability. And now we're back to the psychological diarrhea. So that constant sense of threat. It is, yes, not only are other people disposable, they have to be disposable because Mel, if other people aren't disposable, then they have too much power.

Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.