Transcript of Lessons for Anyone Who Was Scapegoated by a Narcissist (Narcissistic Family Roles) | Mel Robbins

When there is a narcissistic parent, there are typically roles that people tend to fall into in their family that keep this dynamic propped up. Can you talk a little bit about that?

So anytime you have... The more dysfunctional the family system, the more we get put into these concrete codified roles instead of having the flexibility of being able to be who we are, so we're not stuck in a role. In a narcissistic family system, there's two classical roles. One is the golden child. The golden child is the anointed era parent, the one who can do no wrong, but is the hope of the family. In some families, that's a son. It's the eldest son because of whatever cultural issues are. Sometimes it's the child that most physically resembles the parent. Sometimes it's the child that does the things that the parent wants. They succeed at the sport that the parent wants or whatever it may be. Sometimes it's just a kid that's just helpful. It might even be the kid that mixes mom's martini. Whatever it is, it's that kid who is the best source of supply. That's the golden child. And all other children will be compared against that child in any home that's not a single sibling home. But if it's sometimes there's cousins and others that might be compared to that child. The second role that we always see in a narcissistic family system is a scapegoat.

This is the child that gets the venom of the narcissistic parent and is really more the punching bag. I'd see the golden child is the pacifier, the scapegoat is the punching bag. And this is the child who may not look the way the parent wants, behave the way the parent wants, doesn't do the things the way the parent wants them to, whatever it may be, may actually be mouthy, may call the parent out, may challenge the parent, may say, Well, how come you're not treating us better? And that child will get the wrath of the narcissistic parent or parents. The scapegoat role is no joke. Anyone who's listening to this who was a scapegoat as a child will say the wounds of that role stuck with them until adulthood. They never felt safe. And It's a horrific role because a scapegoated child will often see that other siblings and other people in the family system are being treated significantly better than them. It's not like everyone's being uniformly abused, that they are getting the worst of it. That idea that in real-time, you can see that you're getting it worse than others can really do a psychological number on a person.

But the roles aren't just limited to those. Other roles include the rescuer. So the rescuer's fixer, if you will. This is the kid who's always trying to make things right. They clean up after dinner. They make sure everything's running well. They take away all the stressors that could set off the narcissistic parent. They're the one that almost feels anxiety while they hear the parents car come up. The driver like, quick, quick, quick. We need to clean up. We need to clean up, you guys. Come on, come on, come on. It's a lot of that anxiety. Rescuers, they tend to be rescuers well into adulthood. We got to make it better. We got to make it better. They tend to be appeasers. They tend to be those appeasers in the family system through adulthood. The peacekeepers are the diplomats of the family. The rescuers are often doing things like, let's clean up. The peacekeeper, the diplomat, these are the people that are like, No, that's not what mom meant. Mom didn't mean that. I think, Mom, you were trying to tell Billy that you liked it, right? And they're constantly trying to get in there like some really hapless UN diplomat, trying to make peace between countries who don't want it.

The peacekeeper, diplomat child is always on edge, like watching for... So they never get to relax. They're always paying attention. Then there's the invisible child. Have a big enough narcissistic family system. This is the kid that literally gets forgotten. They may be very independent, they may be very quiet, but they're very forgotten. Oftentimes, their interests aren't cultivated. Sometimes, they're not even picked up from school. We're talking that invisible.

I'm laughing because that's my husband.

The final role is It's something we either call the truth-teller or the truth-seer. It depends on how much they're telling. The truth-seer, truth-teller role can overlap with the scapegoat, but this is a very interesting role. This is the kid who gets it and sees it, even as young as five or six. They will see a pattern. When they're little, little, and they don't know to inhibit, they'll say, How come you said that? How come you did that mean thing to grandma? That narcissistic person, it's like the eye of Sauron Lord of the Rings. They'll be like, What? That kid can go scapegoat like that. Some truth see your kids don't say a word. They just watch all of this, and they're very aware, acutely aware. This is almost like a gifted feel to them in the sense of they're very aware of who the players are. It's so fascinating, though, because one thing we know about narcissistic people is they're very socially perceptive for how unempathic they are, for how selfish which they are. They can read a room really well in the sense of how it affects them. If they sense someone has their number, they're onto them.

That truth seeer kid, in a way, is in a position of risk because the narcissist autistic person, parent, can almost feel that child's contempt. That child is almost seeing like, This isn't cool. And the kid may not even be saying it. It's a very subtle dynamic, but I've worked with a lot of survivors who will say, I knew this was a mess, and somehow my parent knew I knew, and that really put me in their crosshairs.

Is it normal when somebody starts to wake up and see and accept the situation for what it is? Is anger part of this, too?

Oh, heck, yeah. Anger is great. Anger is my favorite emotion. Let me tell you why.

Please, because I also think a lot about the fact that if there is a parent that's narcissistic and parents are still together, there is also a parent that didn't protect you from that person. That's right.

That's where we start getting into the weeds. Why is anger so great for survivors? Because it's a mobilizing emotion. It's an activating emotion. Unlike sadness or anxiety that can create a heaviness or even an apathy, anger is a let's go emotion, right? But anger scares us. We think of the anger as being a narcissistic emotion, but in fact, the narcissistic people are rageful, not angry. Anger is great. When When something is unjust, anger is what we should feel. This is not okay, right? Anger is a stage of grief. So anger and grief very much go together. So let's assume that you've got a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent, Because some people have two narcissistic parents, and all I can say is that I promise there's a special corner of heaven for them. But more often than not, it's a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent. And this gets complicated. Because what many people What you will say is, I'm very aware of the suffering that my non-narcistic parent did endure at times. They were humiliated, they were embarrassed, they were criticized. The real agony is a sense of abandonment that the child feels by that non-narcestic parent, thinking like, You were the parent.

It was your job to keep us safe. For an adult in that situation, it becomes a very complex set of emotions. Whatever that case may be, it Sometimes people will say, I get why they didn't fight back, and I get that they were going through their own thing. Then there's often a sense of guilt at being angry at the non-narcistic parent for not fighting harder for them, and then in a sense of anger for feeling abandoned by that person. When you combine anger and guilt and empathy into a blender, it is one of the most difficult to swallow smoothies you are ever going to taste It's in your life.

What do you do, I may be seeking personal advice here, when the narcissistic parent has died and now they are the golden person and the The way in which the narrative about that person is being told publicly is just so glowing and so wonderful. You see the surviving parent waxing on and on and on about the narcissistic one, and you're sitting there going, That's not true.

Right. So this is an interesting conundrum. In some ways, when the narcissistic person is gone, systems are often now willing to hold them up because I think everyone's collectively relieved. So they get to maintain this false narrative of, Now I can talk about him glowingly, and I get to look good, which makes you wonder how much of that narcissism infected the entire system because you get to talk about the dead person like they're cool, but because they're dead and they're not going to be able to keep bothering you. And you get to seem like a great grieving person, and you're filling the grief role, as it were, of being the grieving widow or widow or whatever it may be. Different people will approach this differently. Some people will say, Well, now that that person is gone, I'm going to speak my truth, and I don't care. Others will feel as though maybe this isn't the time because this person is gone. It's going to be different in every system. But that complicated series of reactions after the death of a narcissistic person who had emotionally or otherwise harmed you. It's not an easy one. And a lot of people say, Well, now they're gone.

This is going to be easy. No. I mean, there's going to be some maybe pragmatic relief that you no longer need to deal with them and work around them. But now the rest of the system is not going to have the same clean series of reactions you do. And so it gets messy. And I think that it's giving yourself space to have the complex grief that a narcissistic loss brings to be in therapy. When people People will say, Do I confront the family? It's back to the tiger's cage. Okay? What may happen is any time you confront anyone in a narcissistic family system, and just because a narcissist is dead, doesn't mean this is still not a narcissistic family system. The roles are still held. All the toxic patterns are in place. They don't just disappear with the narcissistic person.

That's a huge point. That you think because now the relationship is over or the person is dead, that all of the wreckage, no, now you're just dealing with it.

The homage to the narcissist in many ways is that the family system stays exactly the same.

Oh, that sucks.

It really sucks.

Well, because I'm also thinking about the example that I'm sure so many of you listening can relate to, which is you have children with a Narcissist. The relationship ends, and you not only have to deal with that sense of this isn't fair, this person has moved on. Everybody's rally ride around them, all is forgiven. I'm sitting here holding the bag, whether it's the hope or I won't allow myself to grieve, but then your kids have their own relationship with this person. That's right. What are strategies that you can use when you are in a system that is still active, whether it's because you share children with somebody or because you're part of a family system where there's been narcissistic abuse, how do you protect yourself?

Part of it is radical acceptance that the system is still the system, that the narcissistic person in a way has, if you will, infected the system in a way, and that those roles, roles keep us comfortable in a way. They keep us safe. That's why dysfunctional systems call for roles, because they create a sense of either safety or definition. I don't know that the scapegoat role keeps someone safe, but it's a very clear role. It's the radical acceptance that those things are going to persist. Then there has to be, again, an intentional self-exploration of how How do I want the people who remain in the system to remain in my life? If you are co-parenting and you have adult children with a narcissistic person with whom you're no longer in a relationship, don't ever gaslight your kids, but also don't proselytize them either. What does that even mean? It's not your job to convince your kids that their other parent is narcissistic. It's actually not okay. If they come to that awareness themselves, they can share it. You don't want to jump on it like, Yeah, isn't he the It's worse, but that's a lot to take in.

Do you want to talk about it? This may not feel the safest place. I hope you do get to explore it. How can I be a support to you as you figure this out? Because it's not easy.

You know, though, I would imagine in that scenario that if you're somebody who feels like this isn't just, and your adult kids come around, and they finally come to you and say, Mom, dad's a narcist, you're right. Your first reaction is going to be, Finally. You know what I mean? You're going to say something that's not... Because that's the justice you're looking for.

Correct. It is the justice you're looking for, but you want to tread lightly because you Kids feel loyal to their parents, even their narcissistic parents. And they're testing the waters. Don't think they're coming in here to say, You're a comrade's in arms. They're testing the waters. And if you're too enthusiastic, you may be viewed as a problem. But if they say, Mom, I'm so sorry. We never made this easier for you. It is so clear he is narcissistic. We went on this ski trip with him and his new girlfriend. Oh, my God. And Then, again, at the highest level of functioning, you'd say, I mean, do you want to talk about it? Do you not? I understand if you don't feel comfortable about it, but it's a lot. I hear you. I get it. By saying, I get it, that's really code for Yeah. And then I'm here. But you can have that justice within yourself, Mel. It doesn't have to be a justice parade.

Well, I just feel like this is something that's incredibly relatable. Very relatable. In the earlier episode, even though this is not validated by a scientific study, you basically feel, after decades of doing this, that one out of every five or so people display this narcissistic style of personality. If I think about the fact that 50% of relationships are more in divorce, and I think about the number of people listening that are recognizing that they may have been married to somebody like this, once you deal with your own radical acceptance, and you give up hope that anything's going to change, and you accept the situation for what it is, and you stop looking for justice, and you are in your own healing, and you're using the tools in your new book. I would imagine that any Every parent listening would love to know the best way that they could accelerate the healing of their children from this. How do you show up both for yourself and for the kids that are being impacted by that parent.

Here's one thing to always remember. Nobody walks away from a narcissistic parent unscaathed. It's not possible. No matter what, if a person has had a narcissistic parent, it will negatively affect you. Now, in the extreme, obviously, it'd be things like complex trauma. Some people with narcissistic parent become narcissistic themselves. We might see things like addiction in response to that. The vast majority of people who had narcissistic parents develop significant anxiety. Anxiety, self-doubts, social anxiety, and all the stuff that goes with that. Am I doing enough? Am I enough? That thing. But we'll put that in the bucket of anxiety. So if you are co-parenting in that situation, your kids will be anxious. That's a fact. That's number one. So let's start there. Number two is don't try to fix it. I think that the big mistake that we make with our kids is we try to solve problems. We are not their life coaches. We are not their efficiency coaches. We are their parents. And sometimes they're mad at us. They're mad at us for having found this person and having kids with them. And they're never going to be able to put it in that many words.

So there are times we will be these children's punching bags. We have different tolerances for that. Some behavior is acceptable, some is not. But it's to be that place where you kids, if they start talking about something, it's not how can we fix it, it's how are you feeling? Then you can say, How can I help? It might be just to listen. Every kid's different in these situations. Mel, in the most tragic telling of this story, sometimes your kids rely with the narcissistic parent. I know many people in the situation they've lost at least one adult child. Narcissistic parents love bomb their kids when they're adults. When they come into young adulthood, now the narcissistic person has made their own supply. It's quite remarkable for them. The one thing a narcissistic parent will often do if they've got it is use money. I'll pay you rent, I'll get your apartment, I'll get you a car. And depending on the kid, some kids don't fall for it, but some do. And they may feel a loyalty to that parent. They may feel sorry for that parent, but they also may be calculating themselves. If the narcissistic co-parent is somebody who is willing to say terrible things about the other parent, then you might have lost this battle.

Because I think that's a very unique situation when people, because you might have multiple kids, and some of your kids still have a relationship with you, and some of them have gone over to the narcissistic parent, but people only have one or two kids, and they've all aligned with that other parent. That is something that some people say they may not ever be able to fully grieve.

You said that the grieving part of this is the hardest part. So what are the tools that you can use to help yourself grieve when you are recovering from a narcissistic relationship?

Number one, recognize it as a loss. In fact, the person going through this loss is, I think it's on the level of more complicated even than the loss of a death. So it's the giving yourself, grief This time, when we have a grief-laden loss, like a death, we mourn. We think of the the Tibhettin 49 days. We think of sitting shiva for loss for people who observe the Jewish faith. We think about the various ways it shows up in different... In some cultures, in South Asian culture, we can't touch each other in a certain period of time after there's been a loss in the family. You don't go to a temple, you don't share food together. So it's always going to be different. But those rituals ground us loss. There are time when we're allowed to press the stop button on the clock and attend to ourselves. We don't build that time in when it's this grief. So a person has to take that for themselves and build in that time.

As I'm thinking about this, the grief has been really helpful as a concept for moving through a narcissistic relationship because it allows you to engage in radical acceptance, give up the hope that it's going to change, and to accept it for what it is. To me, being able to grieve that either your parent wasn't who you wanted or deserved, or your spouse wasn't who you wanted or deserves, to me feels like a mentally healthy response to a situation like this versus the bashing of what's wrong with me, what's wrong with me, which It just makes you feel worse. Correct. But what happens when you get stuck in that rumination of why was I so stupid? Why didn't I see this before? Why didn't I move on earlier? Do you have tools for how you get over that?

That, in a strange way, could be a little bit easier is it's almost like somebody saying, Well, why didn't I know the answer to this exam question? I'm like, Well, because it was never taught to you. It was never taught. We don't teach this in high school. Who was going to teach you It's right. Your parents didn't teach you. High school didn't teach you. College didn't teach you. I guess now with the advent of things like YouTube and stuff, people might get it that way, but some people don't even know what it's called. We're talking about a relatively recent phenomenon that people are understanding what this thing is. So how are you to know it? Every single person around you is telling you, Forgive them. They didn't mean it. This is who they are. They didn't mean it when they said it. That's what everyone around you is saying. And then the narcissistic person themselves is saying, I never said that. You're crazy. There's something wrong with you. You make a big deal out of everything. You're too sensitive. If those are the two sets of voices coming at you, how the hell would you have known what this was?

It's true. And I feel like a first class jerk now because I have been in situations where even though I've been the victim of narcissistic abuse, I've looked at other people, though. I've been like, What's wrong with you? Can't you see this? Why are you still worrying about it? So I apologize to those of you listening that I did that to. Because you're right. If you don't know, how are you going to know? But now you do. So let's talk about the grieving process for those of us that choose to stay in a family system or in a relationship with somebody who we are very clear has a narcissistic personality style. We have accepted it. We have given up hope. But how How do we grieve? How do we protect ourselves? What are the tools that we need to be able to remain healthy and separate in a situation where we've accepted the reality?

But I would guess about 50% of people are narcissistic, intimate relationships stay in them. Let's talk about the staying, first of all, is more common than the leaving. So keep that in mind. Number one, people don't think this is grief because you're in it. It is grief, so treat it as such. Because what's been taken from you. You've lost hope. You've lost the idea that there would be a someday better. You recognize that your childhood was a mess. You recognize the lost potential within yourself. I think to me, the real tragedy that I see with many clients who go through this is they say, had this been different? Had I had a parent who saw me clearly, who actually stepped out of their selfish haze long enough to see me, I would not be 45 and figuring stuff out in life for the first freaking time. That at 45, they feel behind all their peers. Or like, I wouldn't have been in three wrecked marriages. It's not that they're saying they were... People were taking responsibility. I made the mess. I recognized that. But my God, if I'd been given the right tools, it's like somebody who said, Oh, I tried to build a house and all I had was a glue gun and a stapler.

I'm like, Yeah, no, there's this thing called a drill and all this other stuff. You recognize that, holy crap, there are all these tools that some people have, and I still try to make a horse race of it. There's a sadness. So I think that people are grieving the loss of themselves, really. If you know David Kessler's work. Loss has to be gone through. There's no rushing this. What I love about David's work is he talks about the meaning and purpose we derive, meaning more than anything, from the process of grief. And the same applies in narcissistic relationships. Because I say this to every survivor of narcissistic relationships, My God, you are tougher than hell. So basically everyone else was running a marathon just on the flat ground, and they sent you on the wrong path, and they put this weird 400-pound backpack on you and said, Oh, the marathon goes uphill, and you still finish the marathon. No, you didn't win or get a medal, but my God, you finished. And that there's a toughness, a flexibility, a resilience, a discernment, a cleverness, a knowing that survivors of narcissistic abuse have unlike any clinical population I've ever worked with in my career.

They're fantastic. I say this as a survivor myself, and I have so much grief Mel over how late in the game and still struggle with. You've said some nice things to me today, and more often than not, I've put myself down. And I made a joke about it, but I don't know that I'll ever get to a place where I'll ever fully value myself. My Part of my journey of grief is recognizing that I'm never going to get there. And instead, I say every day I'm going to wake up and I'm going to fight the good fight, and I feel privileged to get to do what I do. But there are holes in me. And some days I grieve those holes, and some days I embrace those holes. I could not do what I do unless I had gone through this. That, to me, feels like a gift from God, that I was given this gift. I was given a voice that every of women before me and my family never got. Narcissism is endemic in patriarchal cultures. So I think to myself, you could have either sat there and felt bad for yourself or say, you've been given an opportunity, but my God, my heart, I didn't know the number There are ways the heart could be broken, but you have no idea.

There's ways hearts can be broken that are diabolical, and I had experienced a lot of them. Didn't know how to get into an adult relationship. And I still show up into a lot of these narcissistic relationships. I am tired. And that's what a lot of survivors say. But what comes out of this grief is that some days are very hard, many days are great. There are lots of dark nights of the soul, but I finish the marathon, even though someone threw that backpack on my back and sent me on the uphill track.

I have a question for you. How does one turn off that voice that's been programmed into our head, telling us that our needs, our emotions don't matter, and we must cater to theirs? How do you turn that off?

Okay, it's an excellent question. You don't turn it off. You have to lay a new soundtrack. So if you think about the default mindset, almost like a playlist that runs in the background, that it's almost hard to make it go silent. It's much easier to put a new playlist in there. And so there are two tricks I'm going to give you. So number one... Well, before I get into the tricks, I just want to acknowledge something. Great job recognizing that the default thinking doesn't serve you in your life now. So the fact that you recognize, wow, I have this way of thinking that I don't want in my life, and I'm going to do something about it. So that's enormous, and it's amazing. Can you tell me, what does this default soundtrack sound like? What does it say to you?

So it says that whenever I put myself first and don't put other people first, I'm selfish, or if I want to do something for myself, it's never going to succeed.

Now, did somebody tell you that?

Yes, my parents, actually. Okay.

All right. So thank you for admitting that. And the reason why your parents told you that is because their parents probably told them that. And And so they probably thought that they were protecting you. And instead, they sentenced you to a brain and a way of thinking that makes you feel terrible.

Right.

And so when you can recognize who the programming comes from, it also helps, because then you can separate yourself from that voice. Voice, because it's not your voice, it's your parents' voice. And you have a chance to break this chain. You have the chance to be the one that this playlist dies with. You have the chance to create a whole new way of thinking and talking to yourself, and that's incredible. And so the first thing that you said is that you have a belief because somebody programmed this into your mind that runs on default, that putting yourself first is selfish, correct? Right. How does that impact your life?

I get burnout, basically.

If you could program a different belief, what would the belief be?

That, basically, it's a Okay for me to take care of myself. It's okay for me to have emotions. It's okay for me to just be me.

Yeah. Oh, I love this. Your whole life is about to change because not only is it okay, I deserve to feel how I feel. The main mantra I want you to have is, I deserve to be happy. Does this make me happy? I deserve to feel happy? Does this make me happy? What would change in your life if you started to tell yourself over and over every single morning when you start your day, I deserve to be happy today. What would change if you believed that happiness was something you deserved?

Wow. I think that my day-to-day would be a lot better, basically. I would actually get to cross off all the lists that I put down on my to-do list. I would have self-confidence. I would be able to go out and have a great day with friends. I notice that I hold myself back a lot because of what's been programmed in my head, and I'm done with that.

Well, I'm glad you recognize it. That's a huge step. Most of us sleep walk through life and don't even realize that we have been trained as little kids to make everybody around us happy, and that it's your job to make people happy. It's your job to keep people satisfied. It's your job to make sure nobody's disappointed with you. And part of the problem is, is that underneath what your story is, which is it's selfish to put myself first, you have an uglier story. The ug story, which I recognize because I had this one, too, is people will be mad at me if I put myself first. There will be consequences if I with it's good for me. That's what you're really wrestling with, is that you've connected taking care of yourself with somebody pulling their love away. Yes. And that's why you're scared to put yourself first. This goes way deeper. And so you're doing fantastic on behalf of all of us by recognizing that your own thinking is holding yourself back, and I can tell you're just sick of it. And so here's what you have to start to do. Number one, I want you to name the voice.

Name it?

Yeah, give it a name. Sally, Sue, Jocco, Raul, Michael. We got to name this thing.

Oh, boy. Vicky, I guess.

Vicky. Okay. So When this default programming comes up, you're going to talk back to Vicky. Okay? Okay. And literally, you can even physically, when you feel yourself holding yourself back, that's the signal that this is default programming. You're going to turn toward Vicky. I want you to turn your body, and you're going to look as if Vicky's there, and you're going to be like, Shut up, Vicky.

Right.

Now, I want to hear you do it.

Shut up, Vicky.

Yeah, but if you don't make your boss happy, nobody's going to love you. Tell her, Shut up.

Shut up.

If you don't do exactly what your parents want, they're going to be disappointed.

Shut Shut up.

Say it louder. I don't believe you.

Shut up.

Say her name.

Shut up, Vicky.

You don't want to believe this shit Vicky's saying, right?

Nope.

What do you want to believe?

In myself. Yeah.

Your parents want you to be happy. They don't know how to make you happy. So they're just telling you what their parents told them. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying this is what people do. You You are now an adult. You're not to blame for the crap, the malarkey, the garbage, the gunk, the generational trauma shit that your parents put in your brain. You're responsible now that you're an adult for reprogramming this. And so whenever your mind tells you something that you don't want to think, Shut up, Vicky. I don't believe that. I believe that if I'm happy, my parents are going to think they won the lottery. I don't believe that. I believe that if I put myself first, I'm going to do better work. Shut up, Vicky. What the hell? You're not paying my rent. Shut up, Vicky. You're not going to the party. I'm not taking you with you. There's no plus one on this invitation. Shut up, Vicky. By distancing yourself and talking back to it, it loses its power over you. And what also starts to happen is the filter in your brain, the RAS. It's now noticing, Oh, you actually care about empowering yourself.

And you're going to see more and more reasons to put yourself first. But it really does start with, you got to delete that song. Shut up, Vicky, shut up, Vicky, shut up, Vicky, on the playlist in your mind from the past. And you've got to insert the new programming you want to run on default, which is I deserve to be happy. My parents are proud of me for being me. Nobody's disappointed in me. And if they are, I'm an adult, I can freaking handle it. And And I got to start taking care of myself because I deserve that. Those are your beliefs, period. And whenever you start to feel like, Here you go, holding yourself back. Shut up, Vicky. And you'll notice the more the more you do this and you take ownership for programming your mind, the less Vicky is going to show up. Okay. I mean it. Right. I really mean it. If you believed in yourself, what's one change you would make that would of your life?

I would be less intense, I would say.

Why are you intense?

Because, well, just a little story for you. I'm an immigrant, and so are my parents, and they are very tough on me. They're very toxic because of culture, and they feel the need to raise me a certain way. But in terms of living in America, what they're doing to me is very toxic and abusive. So I'm just always living on the edge, basically. And if I could just embrace myself I think I would be a more relaxed person.

Yes. So are you open to some coaching?

Yes.

So a couple of things I want to say about this. I agree with you. And when you take on the job of programming your mind to work for you, you will be happier. You will relax. And the reason why you're intense is because you have been trained to believe that at any moment, something could go wrong. And that's your lived experience. That is real. That happened. And that is what happened during your childhood. And it will also help you if you can lose the word toxic. Unless your parents are abusing you, and I don't know that they are or they're not. But if you lose the word toxic, and you amplify a little compassion, and you say, I'm not saying what my parents are doing is right, I'm not saying that they didn't cause issues for me, emotionally and mentally and psychologically, but they did the best that they could. I bet it was hard to immigrate here. I bet it was hard to feel like an outsider. I bet the stakes felt really high for them, and they felt like outsiders, and they felt like they couldn't mess up. I bet they took all of that stress that was their lived experience and out of fear and love they aimed it at you.

Right.

And the reason why I want you to drop the word toxic is because I see this word thrown all over the Internet, and it's a very divisive word, particularly if you want to improve your relationship with the people who are engaged in behavior that feels toxic. And so I think your parents probably did the best they could with their experiences in life and with the situation that they were in, and that if they truly understood what it was like for you as a child, they'd be mortified and horrified, and they'd feel terrible. Is that a fair assessment?

I guess, for some parts.

Okay. So I don't want to have you have to go into your whole family history, but if there's abuse and that stuff, then, yeah, that is toxic, and you do need boundaries, and you'll figure that out with your therapist. But when it comes to not adding more pressure on yourself, adding a little compassion so that it doesn't feel so personal and accepting the fact that this was a form of emotional abuse for you, that you stressed you the hell out. You have this toxic stress in your body. You feel on edge all the time. You can change this. And you can also change this and change the dynamic with your parents. And the way that you change the dynamics with your parents is by taking responsibility for how you show up for yourself. There's always two people in a relationship. When you change, the energy that you bring into that relationship is going to change, and they're going to have no choice but to change in reaction to it. That's how this creates a major ripple effect, because it has held you hostage for far too long, and you have the chance to not only heal yourself, but to heal this pattern that's been passed down through your family.

Yes. What are you thinking?

So for right now, we're not really on speaking terms. Yes, they have abused me physically, emotionally, mentally.

It's bad, Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. So since you're not on speaking terms and you're seeking therapeutic help, let's first say this. I am proud of you for getting the help that you need. And I'm proud of you for drawing boundaries that put you first. And drawing boundaries that put you first is an example of you believing that you're worthy and that you deserve to be happy. And that's amazing. Absolutely amazing. And when you continue to start to evict the bully that's in your head by naming that bully and talking back to that bully, you will start to hear and reclaim the most powerful voice on the planet, your own. Period. And you don't need to worry about your parents. The time will come, if it ever comes, when you will feel strong enough, confident enough, secure enough, and safe enough to reconnect with them if that's what you choose to do. And if you choose to never do that, that's okay, too. Because you deserve serve to be happy. You do.

Okay.

What did you get from this conversation?

Basically, to have more compassion for others as well as myself.

Yes. Because part of learning to accept yourself is being compassionate. Compassion for self is super important. You don't have to excuse what somebody did. But when you seek to understand what was going on, both for yourself, for other people, when you bring compassion to it, that's where you open the door to true power for yourself, and where you take control and responsibility for what happens in your life moving forward. You get to decide what happens next. And when you start to change the way that you speak to yourself, again, your whole mindset is going to change. And that will be what empowers you to create a new relationship if that's what you decide to do in the future. But what you're doing right now is you're actually working on the most important relationship on the planet, and that's the one you have with yourself. If you've never heard that narcissism is not something someone's born with. It is created in childhood. It is the result of repeated trauma. And what Rebecca is explaining to you, and this piece of it is critical, that the trauma during childhood, emotional neglect, physical abuse, whatever the trauma may be, it causes arrested development in the part of the brain that is responsible for someone's emotions.

Yes. And what does that mean? That means that while their prefrontal cortex or their Their thinking part of the brain is fully functioning, their emotional part of the brain is lagging. That's why somebody who has a narcissistic personality has so little emotional control. When you start to understand, oh, wait a minute, the thinking part of the brain goes forward, but the emotional one literally stops. If you've ever dealt with somebody who's narcissistic, I bet they spin on a dime. I bet all of a sudden, they can rage at you. I bet all of a sudden, they're irrational. And when I started to realize in my own brain, oh, wait a minute, this is something that a narcissistic person has no control over. This is why they're so unpredictable. This is why they're immature. This is why they can say such mean things and be like, I understand that. It has to do with the delay in the emotional development while the thinking part of the brain is proceeding. This is really important for you to understand because this is not your fault. Yes. There is nothing you can do to change this. And getting yourself all wrapped around the axel because you got somebody in your life that tantrums at you, like some eight rolled.

This is part of how the brain developed because of the, you heard the word again, arrested development in the limbic system. This was critical for Rebecca to learn so that she could navigate the courtroom, so that she could be a savvy negotiator so that she could get into the courtroom or into the deposition and win because she knows she's dealing with somebody who's super sharp in the mind, but ridiculously immature in the emotions. This is so life-changing for you to wrap your brain around because this has nothing to do with you. Later, I promise you, Rebecca Zahn is going to teach you her four-step, proven approach to negotiating with somebody that has narcissism and still winning. She's also going to give you One of the phrases that she likes to say that really disarm somebody with this arrested development. And when we come back from a short word from our sponsors, you better be here because I'm going to be here with Rebecca, and you know what we're talking about? We're talking about this phenomenon called blindness. That happens when you have narcissism. And this is also part of how a person's brain develops during early childhood.

And I can't wait for you to hear this, so stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, I'm so thrilled that you're still here because we are with Rebecca Zung. She is one of the world's highest ranked attorneys, worlds, the US. Okay, I'm just so excited. I'm now starting to inflate her credentials. But the bottom line is she's a badass. And She's here teaching you and I about narcissism and what she's learned as a lawyer and in research and writing three different books on the topic about understanding how narcissism is developed as a result of childhood trauma. I want to recap what you've already learned, because this is going to empower you. You've already learned that narcissists are not born, they are made, and they are the result of childhood trauma. I'm going to repeat this part because this is a game changer when you understand this. Due to childhood trauma, somebody with narcissistic tendencies or full-blown narcissism, what happens is the thinking part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, it keeps on going and developing. But the limbic system, the emotional controls, has this arrested development, which is why when you're dealing with somebody that has narcissistic tendencies, they can seem super irrational or emotionally immature or crazy selfish, like a six-year-old who doesn't want to share their toys and then erupts in something, and then you're like, What is going on?

And then somehow, you feel like you're the problem. And so, Rebecca, I want to continue right in this thread, and I want to flip the script a little bit. As you're listening, I want you to think about somebody in your life that you're dealing with that either has narcissistic tendencies or is a full-blown narcissist. Maybe it's your mom or dad, maybe it's your ex, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a boss, maybe it's a kid, somebody in your life that really fits That's the description that you're starting to fully grasp. Good. You got that person? Great. Now I want you to take that person. Let's just say it's your dad, and let's shrink your dad down and imagine who's just a little kid who is experiencing a traumatic situation in their house, whether it's emotional abuse, it's physical abuse, it's abandonment, it's loneliness, whatever it may be. That That is their reality. Can you explain what's going on for that little eight-year-old kid that's exposed to this, Rebecca, and how narcissism develops?

For children who are dealing with this, continuing continuously in households where there's a lot of stress, where there's a lot of trauma, and they're exposed to this on a continuous basis, while the prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop the part of the brain responsible for judgment or other thinking, planning, that continue to develop. And so during the rest of their lives as adults, they appear to actually functioning normally. There's actually a disconnect between the development between that part of the brain and the limbic system part of their brains. And so while they are functioning normally in one part of their lives, and now something might happen, some trigger, some stimuli has caused them to feel like they need to be back into survival mode. And that stimuli can be anything. And most times, Sometimes it's not necessarily rational or reasonable to most people, but it is to them. And it can be anything. It can be nonverbal or it could be verbal. It can be a nonverbal cue, such as an eye roll or a stance, or it could be a tone of voice. I always say, Narcissus hear tones like dogs hear whistles, but there's no tone, but they hear tone.

So it could be anything, but they get triggered. That thing triggers them. And because of the phenomenon called splitting that they have, where everything is black or white or good or bad or whatever, when that trigger happens, now they go from that prefrontal cortex back into the limbic system. That limbic system becomes activated. And now you're dealing with that limbic system, or they are dealing with that limbic system. And that emotionally charged state is what is taking over now at that point. And now that front part of their brain is no longer in charge anymore. Their limbic system is now in charge. And when that happens, they don't necessarily remember or know what they're doing. That's what's now happening. And that When that happens, it's what's narcissistic injury, is what it's called. And they will then take themselves down, sometimes, to take you down. The retaliation might It happen. They inflict harm. They manipulate. They have little recollection of their actions at that point, and they are seemingly blind or different to the collateral damage that they cause to themselves or others during that state. They are literally blinded by their actions.

We have to stop on this point right here, because what Rebecca is explaining to you when she talks about blindness, and this being tied to the brain development. This changed my freaking life. And I want to take a highlighter, and I wanted to change your life. Because when you have somebody that is narcissistic in your life, and they say, I never said that. That never happened. You're wrong. I didn't mean that. I always felt like they were lying to me, that there was this intent to destroy, right? And when I dug into the research, just like Rebecca dug into the research, and I learned that there is this term blind kindness that due to the arrested development in the limbic system, which means they have little to no emotional control, right? That the emotional eruption, when they get that wave of emotion, it does override the thinking center, and they completely forget what they did. And so I will say, are there narcissists that do it intentionally? Probably. But it was super helpful for me to realize that there are things that have gone down in our family, for example, in the past, where somebody with a narcissistic personality or narcissistic tendencies erupted and said some really cruel things.

There were tears, there was a fight, there was upset. It has always bothered me that the person has operated as if it never happened. And what I've come to realize is that, based on the research, if it is a heightened emotional state, they might not even remember that it happened. If we track back to the example that I gave you, remember when I asked you to just imagine, let's just say it's your dad who's narcissistic, and imagine him as an eight-year-old freaking out, right? And having a complete temper tantrum. Do they remember the mechanics of the temper tantrum? Usually, they don't. And so you know this based on your experience, but being able to tell yourself, Oh, they say this because they actually don't remember saying it. Yeah, they may be a sociopath dickhead, too, but there's also this, again, spectrum, where because somebody is so emotionally immature and they get so triggered so fast, and then they erupt with emotion, and then they forget that they actually said it. One of the things that I love about this is we have had a a number of the world's most renowned experts on this show.

One of my favorite things that I have ever learned about narcissism, I have learned from Dr. Ramony Diversula, who, by the way, is coming up for a two-part series because she has a new book out about healing after you've been sucked into a narcissistic relationship. But one of the things that I learned from her, and this is why I keep repeating this stuff, that narcissists are not born. They're made, and they're made during childhood. What I loved about that is that it allowed me to feel sorry for a narcissist. And that may sound like a weird thing to say, but when you feel sorry for somebody, you get your power back because they don't seem so big and scary anymore. When I look at an adult who is narcissistic, you know what I feel? I'm like, Wow, you must have experienced a lot of trauma as a kid. I feel pretty bad for you. That ability to feel empathy or sadness or feel bad for somebody, it gives me my power and makes me not susceptible to their BS. You know what I'm saying? And so knowing that narcissists are not born that way, they're made.

Tap into a little empathy. And now you know, because there is this arrested development, you are dealing with somebody who is not mature emotionally, and you are You're dealing with somebody who will tantrum as an adult, and you're also dealing with somebody who will likely deny that they did that because they're blind in those moments where they get wildly emotional. And, Rebecca, why this is so important is that one of the most important things, and we're going to get into Rebecca's four-part strategy that she uses when she needs to negotiate or navigate or diffuse or win against a narcissist. You're going to learn the phrases that diffuse somebody who has a narcissistic tendency or approach. But what I love about this is you're getting the why this works. You're getting the understanding. You're getting the facts and the science and the research so that you know this isn't about you. I think that it's really empowering for me to know that every time this particular person in my life that I love, who is so easily triggered, who so easily rages, who so easily, like at the drop of a hat, boom, the mood changes, who's always about them who's got crazy-ass expectations, and the second that the expectations aren't met, they're pouting like a freaking six-year-old.

When I can look at that and go, Oh, this is childhood drama. This is somebody who is not emotionally mature, and probably never will be, because the development of their limbic system got arrested due to childhood trauma. That's why they don't think rationally, and that's why they can't control their emotions, and that's why this has nothing to do with me.

That's exactly correct. That's exactly correct. And even beyond that, what people need to understand is when that is happening, and because that is happening, dealing with that in any situation means that you cannot communicate with them, you cannot negotiate with them in the same way that you can with a rational, reasonable person. You cannot.

Well, Rebecca, I love that you said that because we're both parents. Just to make this as so simplistic that anybody of any age, anywhere in the 194 countries where this show is syndicated, can understand it. Just like you cannot negotiate something with a eight-year-old the same way that you would negotiate with a fully functioning adult, you need to put someone who's got narcissistic tendencies into the camp of negotiating with an eight-year-old, because you're not dealing with a fully functioning, rational human being with fully developed emotional centers in the brain and the ability to regulate themselves or even understand what they're doing. Is that correct?

Yes. And I would even say an eight-year-old who's having a tantrum. Okay.

I love that. How did knowing that help you?

Oh, so much so. So much so. Because Because once you learn this, then, first of all, you can stop taking it personally. Second of all, once you learn that you can stand in your own power, and they're actually way more afraid of you than you are of them. Are they?

Are they afraid? Do they feel fear? You start to feel like this person is such a cold piece of shit that you wonder, do they even feel fear? Do they not?

I mean, they're afraid that you're going to leave them. They're afraid of abandonment. They're afraid you're going to expose them. They're afraid... They're very fear-based individuals. They're afraid you're going to figure out that it's all a big bruise. You know, So that none of what they're doing is... That you actually have more value than they do. The next step is knowing that once you stand in your authentic power, that they can't touch you because they prey upon people who don't have that. They prey upon people who have leaky boundaries. They prey upon people who are... They're going to be able to get, suck that supply from because that's what it is that they need.

You use that term leaky boundaries. What are leaky boundaries? Give us an example of what a leaky boundary would look like.

Leaky boundaries is when instead of stopping somebody from doing something, we allow something to happen that we probably shouldn't. So for example, we don't speak up when we should. So I can say for me, in my business, I saw some things happening with money, for example, and I didn't say something, and I should have. Sometimes maybe you allow things to happen. It's just like things happen in relationships where you shouldn't and you don't speak up. You're just allowing things to happen when you shouldn't. And it's an emotional response to trauma, and it allows you to be open and vulnerable to situations, especially with narcissists, that allows them to come in and take control.

I feel so empowered, don't you? Now that you really understand the brain and the development and the emotional aspect of this, and that it's not your fault. And now that we got that, we're armed with the knowledge, everybody. I want to pivot, Rebecca, and talk about this concept that you have researched extensively called Narcistic Supply. Because this concept also changed my life. And so, based on your research, can you explain to the person listening, what does Narcistic Supply mean? And we have to really put a lot of emphasis on this as you're listening. Here's why. Because you have to understand narcissistic supply in order to truly follow Rebecca's four-point strategy, and in order to use the tactics to win. It has to do with narcissistic supply, okay? This is paramount to you understanding and being able to effectively deal with narcissism, negotiate with a enthusiast, stay grounded in your power, and not get sucked in to this supply and demand loop that Rebecca is just about I'd like to explain to you. Rebecca, give us the 101 on Narcistic Supply and Why It Matters.

It's anything that feeds their ego. Because ego is the only thing that they feel is... They're very steeped in ego. It's the only thing that motivates them. It's what fills them and gives them a feeling of value. For me, I say there's two levels of narcissistic supply. It's that diamond-level supply and what I call coal-level supply, and there's two tiers. To me, it's tiered, and it's important for people to understand that when they go to create leverage. This diamond-level supply is all wrapped up in image. It could be celebrities, it could be money, it could be a new girlfriend, it could be a judge in the courtroom, it could be their employers, it could be their employers. It could be the employees. It could be a new wife.

Could it be the outfit they're wearing, the car they're driving?

It could be the label of the outfit. It could be what bank they're banking with. But it's all wrapped up in image. It's all wrapped up in what I call the window dressing of the world. But they will protect and defend the diamond level supply at any cost, even at the cost of their children, even at the cost of their children. And I have seen it. Period. End of story. And then there's what I call coal level supply, which is also very, very important to them They love it, they need it. But there's a slightly less tier, which is degrading people, controlling people, manipulating people, treating people poorly, pushing other people down in order to make themselves feel good. So passive aggressiveness, little comments, Oh, What dress is very becoming on you for your figure, things like that.

One of the things that I've seen a lot, because I feel like I've mostly come in contact with people that do the coal-level supply, that insult other people, manipulate other people, is this concept of triangulation, where they are gossiping and they are building bonds by trashing other people. They're the person in the corner of the room at a party who's gossiping about everybody else to create a bond with someone in the corner. And when I first heard about that as a extremely... When I first heard about triangulation and that type of, as you call, coal-level supply, trashing other people to bond with the people that you're with. That was my first introduction to narcissism about five years ago. I'm like, Wait, that's what a narcissist does? Oh, yeah, that's the number one sign that somebody has this as a personality type. And it was mind-blowing because I didn't realize that that becomes something that somebody does is in order to supply their own ego, because when you're trashing other people, of course you feel better than other people. And once you see that trashing other people as a sign that you're dealing with criticism, and you see it in the context of supply, I just want to warn you listening, you're going to see it everywhere.

How do I deal with a narcissistic adult son who uses our grandchildren as leverage leverage for the silent treatment, blame, and manipulation?

This is a very common dynamic, and I'm so glad someone's asking about this. You have a narcissistic adult child, fully grown, obviously has gotten into a relationship, has kids, all of that. The grandchildren become the greatest leverage of all leverage on the planet. And this is devastating for parents on multiple levels. Number one, because it's narcissism is a developmental state, many parents Parents will say, What did I do wrong? Am I partly responsible for this? It's particularly devastating if you did co-parent that child with a narcissist and you did your very best. You might have even been that co-parent who actually protected your kid but couldn't get out of the relationship or they were having to spend time with the narcissistic co-parent, whatever it may be that you did what you could, but you could not outrun this thing. So that can be even more devastating. There's a sense of complicity that parents feel that you don't see in any other form of narcissistic relationship. Number one. Then they have kids, and you love those grandchildren, and all the ways grandparents might love grandchildren often do. And Now your narcissistic son recognizes that they've basically got you over a barrel.

It's the ultimate tool of manipulation. With narcissistic people, the struggle is that it's very easy create the monster by giving in to them. They get used to it. And what we do is we have to ask ourselves from a radical acceptance standpoint. In fact, something I talk about in the book is something called a person's true north. That your true north is how I always tell people Don't engage with the narciss. It's going to get you nowhere. Simple answer is disengaged, disengaged, disengaged, right? But the concept of your true north is the one time you will take the fight. Whatever that might be. It might be in the workaround you'll do, it might be the argument you might have, it It might be the tiger's cage you're willing to go into because it might be about... You might be willing to take the fight for your kid or your grandkid. You might be willing to take the fight because somebody is saying something that's so noxious to you. It's racist or some form of bias or something like that. In this particular case, this grandparent has to assess the true north of their grandchildren because the fact is, odds are that it's basically an extortionate set up.

To see the grandchildren, they have to do the dance dictated by their son. The radical acceptance may very well be that there are times they may not always get to see these grandchildren, and the grief that goes with that, it's figuring out the true north. Maybe the birthday party is your everything, so that might be... It's almost like a negotiation. You're going to give in on certain things with this son if there are something you can do, so you can be at the true north of the birthday party or the graduation or having them going on the vacation with them or not. It becomes a constant calibration to Where do I want to see these kids? Where am I willing to relent? Because he's forever going to have you over a barrel. It's also if this person does a fully radically accept their son's behavior, they may still be trying to change their son's behavior. They may have hope for change. You're going to have to eradicate that. In many ways, their son has been brought down to nothing more than the portal to those grandchildren. Instead of putting behavioral standards on the son, who is narcissistic, they have to figure out what the ritualistic dance they need to do is to go through the portal to see the grandkids.

Got you. The radical acceptance there is really just understanding this is what it is.

This is what it is.

That's it. I can hate the dance I have to do. I can hate the hoops I have to jump through. But it's more important to me because I value a relationship with these grandkids, and I understand this is the access point.

It could very well be. We don't know this because they didn't make it clear in the question. They may be talking to their son as though they think he's listening to them like a normal person would. A mistake a lot of people make with narcissistic people is they actually try to appeal to some sensitivity in them. We love your children so much. We would do anything for them. We We blah, blah, blah, save you the money on the babysitter, blah, blah, blah, we'll do anything. And so can't you see how much we care about them? We may trust from whatever the hell it is people are saying about the grandkids. They're not listening. So they're not going to pay attention. All they see is that I have got the ultimate tool here to get what I need from these people. If you have an adult narcissistic child, if I can only issue one warning, make sure your finances are in order and safe. Because an adult narcissistic child, it is not unusual for them to prey on older parents, try to get their names on the note of a house, try to get power of attorney in a way they're going to abuse.

Make make sure that if you do have stuff to hand down, you work with a good attorney in a way that it's hard to think of this way about your own child. But Mel, if I could tell you some of the stories I've seen with the way adult narcissistic children have completely plowed through their parents' money and really put their parents in a precarious spot. I'm not saying that's the case in this one, but you've got to be careful of all these angles. If this son, for example, is at all trying to get into the family's money In some ways, it's almost becomes a pay to play. Whatever you're paying to play, you've got to be aware of that.

Well, I think if somebody is willing to use innocent kids as human capital to manipulate adults to get what you want, that seems a lot more egregious than manipulating you to get to your money. You better believe it. I've seen this question a lot in the form of, how do I deal with the fact that my adult child is now married to or engaged to somebody who's narcissistic, and that new partner is turning them against us. This feels like it's similar, but how do you counsel parents that recognize that this is actually what's happening? We had a great relationship with our adult child. Now they're in a relationship with somebody else. It feels like that person is turning our child called against them? How do you counsel somebody in that situation? Is it the same thing?

It's different, because in the case of the narcissistic son, they're a direct line to the son. They've known the son this whole life. Who knows what historically has happened? It may very well be that they're like, Yeah, we dropped the ball when he was little, and now we've been trying to make amends ever since, and now that he's got kids and we want access to the kids, actually, in some ways, it's the spoiled child phenomenon. They're doing anything the son wants. That's their own kid. Now, if you have a kid that's yours and you have a great relationship with them into adulthood, your kid is not narcissistic, but they meet someone narcissistic. That's a very different situation because you know your kid has the apparatus, the solid apparatus of goodness, whatever that, at least to have a mutual and reciprocal relationship with you. So the big mistake people will say, especially when your child is in love with someone and is about to get married and is in the that blissy state that you say, I'm worried that they're narcissistic. It's the biggest mistake you could make. You never want to do that. You want to try to illuminate the patterns without saying, What he said was toxic, or that wasn't okay, but rather dropping in the lines in the water, things like, Hey, you okay?

We're not hearing from you as much. Is everything okay now? You might hear them say, Gosh, what's wrong I have my own life now. Say, No, I hear that. I completely understand. You want to keep filling it out, filling it out. We can take a page out of the playbook of what happens to people when family members recognize a For a child or family members in a cult. Dr. Yanya Lala, she talks about doing something called breaking the shelf. What she means is that when you have a family member who goes into a cult, you can't say, Yo, you're in a cult. Because they're going to say, No, I'm not. This is my group of healing friends that want to self-develop together. And they're going to say, They told me you would say this. I knew it. To hell with you. And the cult is going to want them to cut that pair off. So what she says is, you need to do is you want to break the shelf. And what that means is, remind them of the life they had before the cult. So it's gentle conversations like, Oh, my gosh, you're not going to believe this.

You remember how you love to surf? It's so I was just driving down the old street. He made the surfboard shop so much bigger. How are you doing? How's the surfing going? You're planting the rigging. You're not surfing anymore, are you? You're not saying that in as many words.

I saw all your friends from high school, and they were all home, and they were asking about you.

Yeah. Or we were getting ready for the ski trip, and you're just reminding them. I remember how much you wanted to write. How's that going? Have you been writing more? Or whatever you're writing. But you're trying to bring them back to themselves. Sometimes, so you're not even talking about the partner. You're talking about the them who is likely getting lost in this relationship. You might have a better chance of doing what Dr. Lodges calls, breaking the shelf and letting them then be able to start to see like, Oh, okay, something's changing. It's not always a sure thing, but ideally, you can then say, especially if you notice... Let's say you notice a difficult interaction. Instead of saying, That wasn't okay, you might want to say, Hey, are you okay? I just saw that. I just wanted to check in.

That's great, because then you get the wheels turning.

That's all you want to do is turn the wheels.

One other thing I'd love to tease out, because we're talking about this as being on a spectrum and that is a personality style. Is it every time I talk to you, I start to wonder, Oh, shit. Do I have narcissistic personality Is this something in everybody? Is it normal to worry that you are narcissistic? Does it mean you're narcissistic if you think you're narcissistic?

So a lot of people grapple with this. It's always why we say the ones who are grappling and worrying that they're narcissistic, usually aren't the ones who are narcissistic, right? Remember, no one thing that I mention, the entitlement or the grandiosity or the arrogance or the empathy deficits or the vanity or the selfishness or the admiration seeking, none of those by themselves define narcissism. A carrot isn't soup. A carrot is a carrot. It might be something in a soup, but by itself, it's a carrot. By itself, arrogance is arrogance. When you put it in there with the chicken and the broth and the celery and the stuff, now you got a soup. We have to remember that you got to have the whole soup. I personally, Mel, and this is a little bit controversial, I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I know some people use that term. I'm not a fan because by definition, narcissism is unhealthy.

Why is it unhealthy?

It's unhealthy because it puts you at odds with other people. It harms other people. Here's where it gets interesting. If somebody has a personality trait that in the world, the way it's organized now, is more likely to make them more successful, more wealthy, narcissistic people are more likely to get romantic partners, they're more likely to be in leadership, all the things that we think are success, narcissistic people will have. So you think, Sign me up. The problem is this whole stuff, that's narcissism, harms other people. I, as a psychologist, and I feel very grounded in this, we are a social species. We exist in social groups that something that harms that connective tissue is not healthy for a human being. I don't care if you have a lot of money. And so I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I believe in healthy self-advocacy. I believe I believe in healthy assertiveness. I believe in healthy sense of self. But when people stop and wonder, am I narcissistic? I really ask them, do you stop and consider how your words affect other people? Do you stop and concern yourself with the feelings of other of people. Every so often, putting ourselves first doesn't make us a narciss.

Telling your friend, I can't come to your birthday dinner. I have worked 16 hour days every day this week. I love you. I'd love to take you to dinner next week. Your friend may be mad at you. I'm not saying your friend is going to be like, Good for you for your self care. And then you say, I am so sorry. I am aware, but I can't do this. I'm pushing myself too hard. And you really make a concerted effort to create the time with a friend. I don't consider that narcissistic.

Here's what I am thinking about right now is that if you're self-reflective and you are a reasonable, empathetic, rational human being who's doing their best, if you're in a relationship with somebody somebody who's narcissistic, it almost seems like the default is to explain away the behaviors that you're ticking off. Oh, they're raging at this person because they're tired. Oh, they're this way because of that. Oh, now they're being nice to me. How do you get to a point in your life where you can say to yourself, this is definitely somebody who has this narcissistic personality style? Is it really like looking for the entitlement piece? Because I personally have really struggled with this because I am so quick to explain away the behavior.

Okay, here's where you can do something that I think is probably one of the greatest balancing acts that if everyone could learn this, could actually help them a lot. You can explain away the behavior and understand that they're narcissistic at the same time. One thing I talk about in the new book you've talked, referenced, is this idea of multiple truths. And nowhere does that matter more than when you're in a narcissistic relationship, that multiple things can simultaneously be true. They did have a bad day at work because they didn't get the promotion they wanted, and that's what's driving their anger, the way they're treating me is unacceptable. Those two things are true. That person's behavior, we could explain it. Again, the minutiae of it, it's not acceptable. Does that make sense? Just because we can explain explain something doesn't make it acceptable. I think one of the dangers of psychology is we can explain things, but we sometimes think, well, if you can explain it, then it's okay. We have to be able to hold in consciousness those two things. This is why they did it, and it is absolutely unacceptable.

I think that is the biggest breakthrough idea that I hope you listening to Dr. Romney right now take away from this, that if you look at another human beings behavior and how impacts you to separate yourself from that behavior, that you didn't cause it, you're not responsible for it, and just because X, Y, Z happened, how they are erupting or how they are treating you is not okay.

And That's hard. Yes. That's really, really hard because the other thing we're also taught is that... And again, the world of therapy is partly guilty for this is, what are you bringing to this interaction? What part Think of couples therapy. What is all of couples therapy? Well, there's two people in the room, so two people must be partly responsible. I'm like, No, not so much. And so I suppose somebody is responsible because they're standing in the room, maybe I'll give them 5 % on that. But beyond that, this idea that one person is using the other human being as their pacifier and punching bag, I can't get behind that. They're using you to regulate. You serve no more function. They don't see you as a human being. They see you as someone they can go off on. And now they've learned, you ain't going anywhere. So you have to make that judgment. Is this acceptable? In fact, if we look at the work on self-compassion, Kristin Neff's work, one thing I really love about it, and I brought to bear in working with survivors of narcissistic abuse, is so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are so far down the rabbit hole of maybe this is all I deserve, maybe I'm to blame, this is probably my fault.

They believe the gas they've internalized all the manipulation, is I'll say, let's step back. I hear you. Now, I want you to take apart this episode you just shared with me, and I want you to answer the question. And by now, when the client, I know they're friends and things like, Would you be okay if this happened to Mary. If you watch this happen to Mary, would you sign off on this? And invariably, no God, Mary. Okay, so you have just said this behavior is unacceptable. So then we work backwards from there.

Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.