Transcript of A Four-Step Process To Reclaim Your Power From a Narcissist | Mel Robbins

Narcism is not something someone's born with. It is created in childhood. It is the result of repeated trauma. And what Rebecca is explaining to you, and this piece of it is critical, that the trauma during childhood, emotional neglect, physical abuse, whatever the trauma may be, it causes a rested development in the part of the brain that is responsible responsible for someone's emotions. Yes. And what does that mean? That means that while their prefrontal cortex or their thinking part of the brain is fully functioning, their emotional part of the brain is lagging. That's why somebody who has a narcissistic personality has so little emotional control. And when you start to understand, oh, wait a minute, the thinking part of the brain goes forward, but the emotional one literally stops. If you've ever dealt with somebody who's narcissistic, I bet they spin on a dime. I bet all of a sudden they can rage at you. I bet all of a sudden, they're irrational. And when I started to I realized in my own brain, oh, wait a minute. This is something that a narcissistic person has no control over. This is why they're so unpredictable. This is why they're immature.

This is why they can to say such mean things and be like, I never said that. It has to do with the delay in the emotional development while the thinking part of the brain is proceeding. And this is really important for you to understand, because this is not your fault. Yes. There is nothing you can do to change this. And getting yourself all wrapped around the axel because you got somebody in your life that tantrums at you, like some eight-year-old, this is part of how the brain developed because of the, you heard the word again, arrested development in the limbic system. And this was critical for Rebecca to learn so that she could navigate the courtroom, so that she could be a savvy negotiator, so that she could get into the courtroom or into the deposition and win because she knows she's dealing with somebody who's super sharp in the mind, but ridiculously immature in the emotions. This is so life-changing for you to wrap your brain around because this has nothing to do with you. Later, I promise you, Rebecca Zahn is She's going to teach you her four-step, proven approach to negotiating with somebody that has narcissism and still winning.

She's also going to give you the phrases that she likes to say that really disarm somebody with this arrested development. When we come back from a short word from our sponsors, you better be here, because I'm going to be here with Rebecca, and you know what we're talking about? We're talking about this phenomenon called blindness that happens when you have narcissism. And this is also part of how a person's brain develops during early childhood. I can't wait for you to hear this, so stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I am so thrilled that you're still here because we are with Rebecca Zung. She is one of the world's highest ranked attorneys, worlds, the US. Okay, I'm just so excited. I'm now starting to inflate her credentials. But the bottom line is, she's a badass, and she's here teaching you and I about narcissism and what she's learned as a lawyer, and in research and writing three different books on the topic about understanding how narcissism is developed as a result of childhood trauma. I want to recap what you've already learned because this is going to empower you. You've already learned that narcissists are not born, they are made, and they are the result of childhood trauma.

I'm going to repeat this part because this is a game changer when you understand this. Do Due to childhood trauma, somebody with narcissistic tendencies or full-blown narcissism, what happens is the thinking part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, it keeps on going and developing. But the limbic system, the emotional controls, has this arrested development, which is why when you're dealing with somebody that has narcissistic tendencies, they can seem super irrational or emotionally immature or crazy selfish, like a six-year-old who doesn't want to share their toys and then erupts in something. And then you're like, What is going on? And then somehow you feel like you're the problem. And so, Rebecca, I want to continue right in this thread, and I want to flip the script a little bit. As you're listening, I want you to think about somebody in your life that you're dealing with that either has narcissistic tendencies or is a full-blown narciss. Maybe it's your mom Maybe it's your dad, maybe it's your ex, maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a boss, maybe it's a kid, somebody in your life that really fits the description that you're starting to fully grasp. Good.

You got that person? Great. Now I want you to take that person, let's just say it's your dad, and let's shrink your dad down and imagine who's just a little kid who is experiencing a traumatic situation in their house, whether it's emotional abuse, it's physical abuse, it's abandonment, it's loneliness, whatever it may be. That is their reality. Can you explain what's going on for that little eight-year-old kid that's exposed to this, Rebecca, and how narcissism develops?

So for children who are dealing with this continuously in households, where there's a lot of stress, where there's a lot of trauma, And they're exposed to this on a continuous basis, while the prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop, the part of the brain responsible for judgment or other Thinking, planning, that continue to develop. And so during the rest of their lives as adults, they appear to be functioning normally. There's actually a disconnect between the development between that part of the brain and the limbic system part of their brains. And so while they are functioning normally in one part of their lives, and now something might happen, some trigger, some stimuli has caused them to feel like they need to be back into survival mode. And that stimuli can be anything. And most times, it's not necessarily rational or reasonable to most people, but it is to them. And it can be anything. It can be nonverbal or it could be verbal. It It can be a nonverbal cue, such as an eye roll or a stance, or it could be a tone of voice. I always say, Narcissus hear tones like dogs hear whistles, but there's no tone, but they hear tone.

So it could be anything, but they get triggered. That thing triggers them. And because of the phenomenon called splitting that they have, where everything is black, or white, or good, or bad, or whatever, when that trigger happens, now they go from that prefrontal cortex back into the limbic system. That limbic system becomes activated. And now you're dealing with that limbic system, or they are dealing with that limbic system. And that emotionally charged state is what is taking over now at that point. And now that front part of their brain is no longer in charge anymore. Their limbic system is now in charge. And when that happens, they don't necessarily remember or know what they're doing. That's what's now happening. And when that happens, it's what's narcissistic injury is what it's called. And they will then take themselves down sometimes to take you down. The retaliation might happen. They inflict harm. They manipulate. They have little recollection of their actions at that point, and they are seemingly blind or indifferent to the collateral damage that they cause to themselves or others during that state. They are literally blinded by their actions.

We have to stop on this point right here, because what Rebecca is explaining to you when she talks about blindness, and this being tied to the brain development, this changed my freaking life. And I want to take a highlighter, and I wanted to change your life. Because when you have somebody that is narcissistic in your life, and they say, I never said that. That never happened. You're wrong. I didn't mean that. I always felt like they were lying to me, that there was this intent to destroy, right? And when I dug into the research, just like Rebecca dug into the research, and I learned that there is this term, blindness, that due to the arrested development in the limbic system, which means they have little to no emotional control, right? That the emotional eruption, when they get that wave of emotion, it does override the thinking center, and they completely forget what they did. I will say, are there narcissists that do it intentionally? Probably. But it was super helpful for me to realize that there are things that have gone down in our family, for example, in the past, where somebody with a narcissistic personality or narcissistic tendencies erupted and said some really cruel things.

There were tears, there was a fight, there was upset. And it has always bothered me that the person has operated as if it never happened. And what I've come to realize is that based on the research, if it is a heightened emotional state, they might not even remember that it happened. And if we track back to the example that I gave you, remember when I asked you to just imagine, let's just say it's your dad who's narcissistic, and imagine him as an eight-year-old freaking out, right? And having a complete temper tantrum. Do they remember the mechanics of the temper tantrum? Usually, they don't. And so you know this based on your experience, but being able to tell yourself, Oh, they say this because they actually don't remember. I'm saying it. Yeah, they may be a sociopath dickhead, too. But there's also this, again, spectrum, where because somebody is so emotionally immature and they get so triggered so fast, and then they erupt with emotion, and then they forget that they actually said it. And one of the things that I love about this is we have had a number of the world's most renowned experts on this show.

And one of my favorite things that I have ever learned about narcissism, I have learned from Dr. Romani Diversula, who, by the way, is coming up for a two-part series because she has a new book out about healing after you've been sucked into a narcissistic relationship. But one of the things that I learned from her, and this is why I keep repeating this stuff, that narcissists are not born. They're made, and they're made during childhood. And what I loved about that is that it allowed me to feel sorry for a narciss. That may sound like a weird thing to say, but when you feel sorry for somebody, you get your power back, because they don't seem so big and scary anymore. When I look at an adult who is narcissistic You know what I feel? I'm like, Wow, you must have experienced a lot of trauma as a kid. I feel pretty bad for you. And that ability to feel empathy or sadness or feel bad for somebody, it gives me my power and makes me not susceptible to their BS. You know what I'm saying? And so knowing that narcissists are not born that way, they're made.

Tap into a little empathy. And now you know, because there is this arrested development, you are dealing with somebody who is not mature emotionally, and you are dealing with somebody who will tantrum as an adult, and you are also dealing with somebody who will likely deny that they did that because they're blind in those moments where they get wildly emotional. And, Rebecca, why this is so important is that one of the most important things, and we're going to get into Rebecca's four-part strategy that she uses when she needs to negotiate or navigate or diffuse or win against a narcissist. You're going to learn the phrases that diffuse somebody who has a narcissistic tendency or approach. But what I love about this is you're getting the why this works. You're getting the understanding. You're getting the facts and the science and the research so that you know this isn't a about you. I think that it's really empowering for me to know that every time this particular person in my life that I love, who is so easily triggered, who's so easily rages, who so easily, like at the drop of a hat, boom, the mood changes, who's always about them, who's got crazy-ass expectations, and the second that the expectations aren't met, they're pouting like a freaking six-year-old.

When I can look at that and go, Oh, this is childhood drama. This is somebody who is not emotionally mature. And probably never will be because the development of their limbic system got arrested due to childhood trauma. And that's why they don't think rationally, and that's why they can't control their emotions, and that's why this has nothing to do with me.

That's exactly That's exactly correct. And even beyond that, what people need to understand is when that is happening, and because that is happening, dealing with that in any situation means that you cannot communicate with them. You cannot negotiate with them in the same way that you can with a rational, reasonable person. You cannot.

Well, Rebecca, I love that you said that because we're both parents. Just to make this as so simplistic that anybody of any age, anywhere in the 194 countries where this show is syndicated, can understand it. Just like you cannot negotiate something with a eight-year-old, the same way that you would negotiate with a fully functioning adult, you need to put someone who's got narcissism logistic tendencies into the camp of negotiating with an eight-year-old, because you're not dealing with a fully functioning, rational human being with fully developed emotional centers in the brain and the ability to regulate themselves or even understand what they're doing. Is that correct?

Yes. I would even say an eight-year-old who's having a tantrum. Okay.

I love that. How did knowing How does that help you?

Oh, so much so. So much so. Because once you learn this, then, first of all, you can stop taking it personally. Second of all, once you learn that you can stand in your own power, and they're actually way more afraid of you than you are of them. Are they?

Are they afraid? Do they feel fear? But you start to feel like this person is such a cold piece of shit that you wonder, do they even feel fear? Do they not?

I mean, they're afraid that you're going to leave them. They're afraid of abandonment. They're afraid you're going to expose them. They're afraid. They're very fear-based individual. I mean, they're afraid you're going to figure out that it's all a big bruise, that none of what they're doing is... That you actually have more value than they do. The The next step is knowing that once you stand in your authentic power, they can't touch you because they pray upon people who don't have that. They pray upon people who have leaky boundaries. They pray upon people who are They're going to be able to get, suck that supply from because that's what it is that they need.

You use that term leaky boundaries. What are leaky boundaries? Give us an example of what a leaky boundary would look like.

Leaky boundaries is when When instead of stopping somebody from doing something, we allow something to happen that we probably shouldn't. So for example, we don't speak up when we should. So I can say for me, in my business, I saw some things happening with money, for example, and I didn't say something, and I should have. Sometimes maybe you allow things to happen. It's just like things happen in relationships where you shouldn't and you don't speak up. You're just allowing things to happen when you shouldn't. It's an emotional response to trauma, and It allows you to be open and vulnerable to situations, especially with narcissists, that allows them to come in and take control.

I feel so empowered, don't you? Now that you really understand the brain and the development and the emotional aspect of this, and that it's not your fault. And now that we got that, we're armed with the knowledge, everybody. I want to pivot, Rebecca, and talk about this concept that you have researched extensively called Narcistic Supply, because this concept also changed my life. And so based on your research, can you explain to the person listening, what does narcissistic supply mean? And we have to really put a lot of emphasis on this as you're listening. Here's why. Because you have to understand narcissistic supply in order to truly follow Rebecca's four-point strategy, and in order to use the tactics to win. It has to do with narcissistic supply, okay? This is paramount to you understanding and being able to effectively deal with narcissism, negotiate with a narciss, stay grounded in your power and not get sucked in to this supply and demand loop that Rebecca is just about to explain to you. So, Rebecca, give us the 101 on Narcissistic Supply and Why It Matters.

It's anything that feeds their ego. Because ego is the only thing that they feel is they're very steeped in ego. It's the only thing that motivates them. It's what fills them and gives them a feeling of value. So for me, I say there's two levels of narcissistic supply. It's that diamond-level supply and what I call coal-level supply. And there's two tiers. To me, it's tiered. And it's important for people to understand that when they go to create leverage. This diamond-level supply is all wrapped up in image. So it could be celebrity It could be money. It could be a new girlfriend. It could be a judge in the courtroom. It could be their employers. It could be the employees. It could be a new wife.

Could it be the outfit they're wearing, the car they're driving? Could it be The outfit they're wearing.

It could be the label of the outfit. It could be what bank they're banking with. But it's all wrapped up in image. It's all wrapped up in what I call the window dressing. Of the world. But they will protect and defend the diamond level supply at any cost, even at the cost of their children, even at the cost of their children. And I have seen it. Period. End of story. And then there's what I call coal level supply, which is also very, very important to them. They love it, they need it. But there's a slightly less tier, which is degrading people, controlling people, manipulating people, treating people poorly, pushing other people down in order to make themselves feel good. So passive aggressiveness, little comments, Oh, that dress is very becoming on you for your figure, things like that.

One of the things that I've seen a lot, because I feel like I've mostly come in contact with people that do the coal level supply, that insult other people, manipulate other people, is this concept of triangulation, where they are gossiping, and they are building bonds by trashing other people. They're the person in the corner of the room at a party who's gossiping about everybody else to create a bond with someone in the corner. And when I first heard about that, as a extremely... When I first heard about triangulation and that type of, as you call, coal-level supply, trashing other people to bond with the people that you're with, That was my first introduction to narcissism about five years ago. I'm like, Wait, that's what a narcissist does? Oh, yeah, that's the number one sign that somebody has this as a personality type. And it was mind-blowing because I didn't realize that that becomes something that somebody does in order to supply their own ego. Because when you're trashing other people, of course, you feel better than other people. And once you see that trashing other people as a sign that you're dealing with narcissism, and you see it in the context of supply, I just want to warn you listening, you're going to You're going to see it everywhere.

I mean it. You're going to see it everywhere. And so I'm feeling very empowered. I hope you're feeling very empowered, and I want to build on the knowledge from here. We've already learned so much, but we I'm going to build from here. Because now that you have the basics down, and the dynamic down, and this concept of supply down, let's go into the three phases of a narcissistic relationship. Okay? Because what we're Rebecca has done is Rebecca dug into the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. I have to tell you, before we unpack this, everybody, I used to work on a domestic violence hotline. I did this decades ago. I was a trained crisis intervention counselor. I will tell you that when you learn the three phases, this cycle of a narcissistic relationship and how supply really plays into it, it feels almost to battered women syndrome, and the romance, and the honeymoon cycle, and the abuse cycle. What's interesting is because so many of you have experienced emotional abuse from somebody who's narcissistic. I think it can be really confusing to identify it because it's sinister. When somebody hits you, you know it's wrong. But when somebody is, I didn't say that.

I never mean that. Raging at you, putting you on edge, making you feel like you're the one going crazy. It's all emotional. And so you start to question yourself. And so Rebecca is going to teach you that there are three phases of a narcissistic relationship, and they are very distinct. And the first phase is when you get pulled in. And that phase is something you've probably seen other people have happened to them. I've certainly seen it happen to one of our kids. You get swept right off your feet. And you know that this is something called love bombing. And that's what we're going to talk about when we come back. We're going to dig into all three phases, what they look like, what they feel like, how to spot which phase you might be in, or a friend might be in. And then we are going to get to that four-step approach to how you deal with a Narcist, how you negotiate, and how you ultimately win and get what you need from the Narcissist in your life. So don't you dare go anywhere, because I'm going to be waiting for you after the break.

Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. We are digging into Narcism, and boy, are we learning a lot from Rebecca Zung. As you know, Rebecca Zung is one of the top-rank lawyers in the United States. She has been researching Narcism for decades. She's written three books on the subject, and I love her angle because she's not a psychologist. She's not a relationship expert. She's a lawyer who is here to make her case. She is a lawyer who shows up in a court with a strategic mind and a game plan to win. Let's dig in to the three phases, the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. Rebecca, you write extensively about phase one, which is love bombing. Can you describe what love bombing is?

Yeah. So it's the same, whether it's a professional or a personal relationship. And obviously, if you're in a family, it's totally different. But this is initial if you're just meeting a person. So they use mirror neurons, by the way. I mean, this is one thing I do say they're really good at because it's a survival mechanism for them. So it's something that they've learned from childhood to do. And that is they become exactly what you want. They're very good at reading people. So they're almost like chameleons to read exactly what you want. And they come on really, really strongly at the beginning I mean, it's almost like you can't breathe. They overpower you. And all of a sudden, you're the the most amazing thing that make you feel like you're the most incredible person that they've ever met. And they are the most incredible person that you've ever met. And it's like your soulmates. And where have you been all my life? And it's 50 emails a day and a thousand text messages a day, and they're showing up at your house or office, and we should get married, and we should meet your family.

Or if it's a business relationship, then we should be business partners. And I've got all the best contacts. And It's the excitement, it's the chemistry, and you almost can't breathe or see anything else because it's all them all the time, because they're trying to get you to that next level right away. They want to lock you in as fast as possible. Let's get married in Vegas. Let's move in together. Get me on your bank accounts. And many times they'll show up as your savior. You It might be right after somebody died and they're swooping in and they're taking care of everything. Or it might be if you are a victim of something, then they'll show up and they'll take care of everything. That way. Or they look for opportunities to swoop in. If they look for vulnerabilities that way as well. But it sweep you off your feet. Grand gestures, massive, huge grand gestures like that a lot of times. So that's the thing you see at the beginning.

Big things, They lock you in. One of the things I just want to point out is that even though you're using terms like, they look for this, they do this. Would you agree, though, that this is, given that it's arrested development, not something that a narcissist is consciously doing, that they're not sitting around going, who's my next victim? Who am I going to love bomb? This is their way of being, and they do it innately. And so I think part of the reason why it's important to highlight that to everybody is to make sure that you understand that that's why there is such a sense of denial. I never did this. I didn't I didn't say that because they're not even aware that this is what they're doing. They just think that you're in love. They just think that we should get married. They just think that we are soulmates. I watched this happen with somebody that I love just in the past year, and it was so alarming because as this person came on like the absolute love of this person's life and took over their universe, I'm thinking, This is love bombing. Oh, my God.

But from both the person with narcissism and the person that they were love bombing, this felt like the world's best, most magical love story, and nobody could argue otherwise.

I absolutely do think that. I think they believe everything that they say. I do. I always tell people, send them light, but over there, you have to protect yourself. It's hard to be yourself, though, too. So, yes, have some passion for them. No, I agree.

I agree. What I'm trying to say is, I think, maybe too fine of a point, that when I see people talk about narcissism, particularly on social media, there is an assumption that there is a very specific and conscious and intentional strategy that somebody is deploying. And what I'm trying to say is, I don't believe that's true because I think this is just how they operate, and they're not even aware that this is how they operate. It's unconscious, which makes it almost more dangerous that they are stuck in this loop themselves as an eight-year-old emotionally, and they're not doing anything to you, so to speak, this is how they move through every single relationship, and they are not going to be attracted to somebody who is strong and in their power because you're not buying into the love bombing, and you're not part of this loop. I guess I say that only because I see a lot of misinformation and finger-pointing in the language online. That's not what you're saying, but I think it's important for somebody listening to understand. If you listen closely to what Rebecca Zung is saying, she's saying, based on her research, this is something that happens neurologically during childhood.

That's why there's so much denial on the part of the narcissist. They're not aware. So after the love bombing, though, and you now are in business with somebody, and you now have given somebody equity, or you have put them into your bank accounts, or you think you're running off and getting married, there's all of a sudden a second stage. What is that stage, Rebecca?

The devalue is that's when you start to see the wheels come off. That's when they start to exhale, and that's where you start to see the red flags, and So there's no more of the 50 emails a day. That's where you start to see the lying. As soon as you get to this part, they've locked you in. They've gotten here, which is what they've been looking for. This is where they relax because they've been holding their breath, trying to get you, get you, get you. And now they've gotten you. And so now they exhale and you get to start to see that mass come down a little bit. And And now you start to see all the red flags. Their stories aren't holding up. Now you start to see lies. Now you start to see manipulation. Now, all that money that they borrowed from you, well, they're not probably ever going to pay it back. But they're starting to lie about, oh, and that degree that they said they had, well, it's not really a degree. It's really something else. And that A brother-in-law that they said was actually a thing. Well, that's not really a thing.

Oh, that project that they said they were going to do for you. Well, that's probably not going to get done. And all these things are starting to happen. And the 50 calls a day, well, now they don't call you at all. And now, how come you're so needy? And it just becomes this whole relationship that you didn't think it was at all. And And you're trying to chase and get that back again. But then when you start to walk away, well, then they make promises, promises for the future. And it becomes this whole toxic stew, push, pull, push, pull, push, pull, which is also plays upon your brain Because now you're getting these dopamine hits, so you become physiologically addicted to this person, and that causes a trauma bond in you.

I would love to have you unpack this. Because as you're describing this, Rebecca, my heart is sinking because I have watched someone that I love deeply go from a very strong, centered, powerful person to questioning themselves relentlessly and putting up with bullshit lies and that, Oh, I never said that, and you're needy, and that pushback. And questioning themselves, and I have not known what to do. And so can you explain what you mean when you use that term addicted?

Yes. So there's a study by a professional professor from Stanford, his name is Robert Sapolsky, and he did a study on monkeys, and the monkeys would get a reward every single time they did something good, and nothing happened in their brain. Then he would give these monkeys a reward intermittently, and they didn't know when they were going to get this reward. And when they didn't know, then the dopamine levels in their brain actually rose to the level of cocaine.

I am so glad you are bringing this study up, Rebecca, in the context of narcissism, because I'm very familiar with the study. And just to broaden this out for you listening, this is a really well-known study that's normally talked about in the context of addiction. It was done with monkeys, and here's what it proved. It proved that not getting the reward all the time is what got the monkeys addicted. I can give you another example that'll make sense. Envision a slot machine. When you go and you pull the lever or you push the button on the slot machine and you watch those things like twirl, right? As you are craving a win and you don't get it, what do you do? Boom, you hit it again. All of a sudden, you get a win. Oh, my God, amazing. So now what do you do? You hit it again, and then you hit it again, and then you hit it again, and you hit it again, and now you get a win again. But it's not consistent, is it? See, it's the inconsistency. It's the fact that it might be really good. That's what causes the addiction to it.

This is really important to understand when in the context of narcissism, because the praise and the love bombing and the attention from the narcissist, it's totally unpredictable. Like, one minute, you're the center of the world, and they love you, and you're this, and you're that, and the other thing. And then, boom, the wind changes, and you're in the phase of discard. You're like, literally, they don't even talk to you. And that's what makes you feel like a monkey addicted to cocaine who doesn't know when it's going to come next. And this is also why you can have a super smart, rational, accomplished girlfriend and watch her become a complete cocaine-addicted monkey when she gets in a relationship with a Narcist. You see the love bombing, then you see the inconsistent behavior, then you try to appeal to her rationally, but then she's back into the love bombing, and it's just like gambling or any other addiction. Because it's so inconsistent, you literally get addicted to the person because you're waiting for that next round of the love bombing to come. This makes so so much sense.

Right. The conclusion was that when you are dealing with a narcissistic type of a person, that the anticipation of this love bomb, you actually become physiologically addicted to this person. And that is partially what contributes to this trauma bond, is that your brain becomes physiologically addicted to that hit of wanting that back.

I have seen this dynamic play out with somebody I love deeply in a relationship. These first two phases of the relationship, the first one being love bombing everybody, and the second one now is this devaluing that makes the person spin. But then there's this third phase of a narcissistic relationship, this cycle that you can get in, and you label this the discard phase.

Yes. So the discard phase can be either you're discarding them or they're discarding you. I mean, this is where it's the end of the relationship. And you will see the birth of the smear campaign for sure. But this is where you will definitely become public enemy number one, because you're either for them or against them. And so even with the covert Narcissist, the The mask will definitely come off, and they will come after you because they want to make sure they take you down before you can take them down.

So, Rebecca, if you are in that discard phase, where they've withdrawn, the lies are coming out, the truth is starting to get revealed, you say there's only three options when you realize you're in this phase. What are they?

Well, you can stay. You can give exactly what they want, or you can fight back and do it in a way that's strategically, which you have to do. You have to do. I was the people pleaser, though. I wanted to be liked. I didn't want other people who were in our circle to think that I was the bad one. She was all likable, and I didn't want people to be mad at me. I had all this stuff that I needed to get past so that I could speak up and stand on my own two feet. And thank God I did.

Thank God you did, because now you're here to teach us how to do the same thing and how to try to support the people that we see stuck in this to do the same thing. For somebody listening who has been caught in this cycle, and they don't even know what their value is because they're so spun around, where do you begin? How do you define it if you don't even know what it is because you're that like, ah?

Those baby steps, little baby steps. Once you start little baby stepping it and you start to see little steps, that's why little wins every single day start to stack up. And when you start to see, you know what? I did it. I started to create a boundary today, and it worked. I started to do this a little bit today, and it worked. You know, That's where you start to stack up those wins, and you start to turn it around, and you'll see it'll work. It starts working.

The two biggest things that changed for me in terms of me getting on the offensive was identifying the narcissism as a tantrum and visualizing the narcissist as an eight-year-old in a tantrum, which helped me separate myself. And the second thing was really taking a pause after visualizing the tantrum and asking myself, Well, what do I want right now? And if I don't want to deal with this, it's a yes or no or silence. And if I do want to deal with it, it's exactly what you're talking about in terms of thinking about, Okay, well, there's going to be a supply here. What am I willing to give to get what I want? And doing that consciously and emotionally distant makes you feel so empowered because you're no longer in it. You're now the one manipulating it, and they don't even know.

It's fantastic. A hundred %. And it's fantastic. You are the one in control. And just Remember, what's negotiable is contracts and issues and terms, not your self-worth, your self-esteem, or who you are.

Because there's so much denial when you're in it, and so much, I think, explaining away bad behavior that I'm not sure people understand the strategies and the patterns that you can spot when you know them. What are some of the most common patterns that narcissists use to keep your attention and that supply coming back to them?

Gaslighting is probably one of the biggest ones. I think all narcissists use gaslighting to destabilize you and make you think that you're crazy. So it would look like... And there's so many different forms of gaslighting, but the bottom line of gaslighting is trying to make you think that you're crazy. So it comes from the movie or the play Gaslight, where the husband was blowing out gaslights to try to make the wife think that she was crazy. So she would say, wasn't that just lit? And he would say, no, no, it wasn't. So So that's what they do. So they'll say, oh, I'm going away with my friends for our anniversary weekend. And the wife would say, oh, you're going away on our anniversary weekend? We never discussed that. Oh, yeah. We had a whole conversation about that, and you agreed, don't you remember? No, we never had that conversation. Oh, yeah, we did. And you know, you knew we never had that conversation. That's gaslighting.

You're giving my heart palpitations because I really felt like I was in the presence of this particular person that does this to me all the time. So what do you think the biggest myth is about narcissism or negotiating with narcissists?

A hundred %, it is that narcissists just want to win. Yeah, because they do want to win, but they also want to continue to manipulate you and see you squirm. And so the problem, the reason why people have trouble negotiating with narcissists, and they can't ever get out of these things is because narcissists continue to move goalposts all the time because they enjoy the cold level supply, too. And so they missed the They forgot about the coal-level supply. And so unless you figure out a way to threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around, which is the coal-level supply, then you're never going to be done, ever.

And I bet you saw over and over again being an attorney for 20 years representing people, particularly in high net-worth divorces, that divorces go on for years and years, and years with narcissists, because they, by keeping the divorce and the arguing, and all that crap alive, they're getting that supply that you're talking about.

And I didn't know what was going on as a lawyer. I had no idea. I had a guy, the divorce lasted five years. He told me, I'd rather pay you than her.

Yes. I think a lot of people say that.

And I I remember saying to him, You don't need to put my kid through College, because I was like, sick of him myself. I mean, like, How do I get rid of you? You know? But, you know, I didn't realize that that's what he was doing.

And what you're basically saying is that conflict and the ability to bitch to your lawyer about the, quote, crazy person on the other side, it That actually creates that coal-level supply in you, the Narcissist, because you feel better than the crazy person. Am I getting this?

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a crazy story. I'm going to tell you about a $2 million apology.

Okay. I'd like one of those.

So I had a case where we were mediating, and we thought we were just about done. The guy was going to pay the wife... I mean, she was getting a lot of assets, too. But over the course of the next several years, he was going to be paying her $2 million in alimony, monthly, but it was going to add up to about $2 million. And he was big, flaming, narcissist. Anyway, mediator comes in. It's like, 9:00 at night. We've been mediating for 12 hours. And he says to me, Hey, Rebecca, can I talk to you for a second? We go out into the reception area, and he's like, I've never seen this before. But the wife, crazy enough, she's willing to waive alimony completely. If he'll go in there Just the two of them, and apologize to her for all of the things and the way he treated her during the marriage, sincerely. I'm like, And what's the catch? And he said, No catch. She just wants an apology. I'm like, All right. She's willing to waive it. We'll put it in the agreement. Her lawyer is standing there, and she's like, Yeah, I told her no, but this is what she wants.

This really means a lot to her. I'm like, All right. So I go into the room, and I told him what was going on. And he says, No, I'm not going to do it. I said, What? Because you know why? Because he wanted the chance to be able to continue to screw with her every single month, not pay her, keep her on a string, do the whole thing, right? She wanted to be done with this dude, right? And I'm like, I'm going to kick your butt. You're going over there right now. And I'm thinking to myself, I need a CYA letter. He's going to come back over here and tell me, why didn't you make me do this? So I said, you're going over there. You're doing this. So he went over there, finally, and did it like a puppy dog with his tail between his legs. And he did it. And we got The alimony waved. It actually happened, but he did not want to.

Can you talk a little bit about family roles where there narcissistic parents? I found that to be fascinating.

Yeah. So in a narcissistic family, and is Assuming there's more than one child, and even if there's not, that child could still be placed in a role. We have some classical roles that kids fall into. Roles are never healthy in a family system because in a way, you can see that each of these children are either being put in the role or have taken on this role as a survival need versus a child just getting to be a child. The number one classical role is the golden child. This is the child who has been anointed by the narcissistic parent. It could be that that child resembles the parent, the child is getting a lot of validation from the world. They may be good at something. And so they're the one who is always doing well at sports or people like them or they sing well or whatever it may be that the parent is getting a lot of validation. So they make that child the golden child. Now, usually to have a golden child, you need another sibling to create that dynamic because that other child is not the golden child. So it's clear there's a chosen child in the household.

And do golden children remain golden children permanently? Not necessarily. There's a point at which the golden child decides to step out of ranks or do something that aggravates the narcissistic parent, the crown shall be removed from their head. The other primary role in these families is the scapegoat. Now, the scapegoat gets the worst of it. And I would say in some cases, the scapegoats get it so terribly in narcissistic families, they come out of childhood with something that looks like complex trauma. They are constantly constantly criticized compared to other kids. They're literally not given... One kid's tuition will be paid for, and the scapegoats will not. The scapegoat will be expected to get a summer job to help the family. The golden child will get to go to some special camp. It's a stark market difference. The scapegoat will endure abuse that other siblings in the family don't endure. Why is the scapegoat a scapegoat? It's hard to know. I've heard every reason in the book, the scapegoat simply knows they're the scapegoat. It is actually Because the scapegoat is a terrible legacy to take into adulthood because they will forever wonder, why? What was it about me?

What do you have to say to somebody who's listening saying, That was me?

We'll start with trauma work, validation of their experience, because for a lot of scapegoats, they were told, You were treated no differently. So we start with straight up, you were treated differently. That happened. And that's the foundation. And you grow from there, and that this was real. And then you explain to them how narcissistic families work and how narcissistic personalities work, because ultimately, it wasn't their fault, wasn't the scapegoat's fault. The next type is what I call the helper. The helper child is almost like a a personal assistant. They are constantly exhausting themselves to do things for the parent. They may watch younger siblings. They might try to keep the house clean. And they'll feel like they have to do this, not to be a responsible player in the household, everyone doing their part, but because they feel that this is the only way to get seen, recognized, or avoid the narcissistic parents' abuse. Another type of child we see is the fixer. The fixer is almost like this mini diplomat who's trying to insert themselves in at all times, trying to make sure... For example, if you have a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent, there can be really terrible verbal abuse, sometimes even violence, but more verbal emotional abuse, and that fixer child will constantly be And they're almost like a court jester to keep the parents from fighting.

They will stay up later than they want to to make sure that the parents don't argue. They'll often sometimes even fall on the grenade so that they'll sometimes try to protect the scapegoat. So that's the fixer.

One thing that really struck me in what you're saying is having one parent versus two. I guess I just assume there was always one.

Oh, there can be two.

Two narcissists can get together.2 narcissists are attracted to each other?Oh.

Heck, yeah.Why? Flashy, superficial, grandiose. We're going to be the greatest thing ever. We're going to save the world together. I'm hot, you're hot. Let's go be hot and save the world. You don't think those people are drawing together?

Oh, actually, that's true. You see them all over social media.

Social media, LA, all the time. And that's a nightmare scenario for a child because they only pay attention for their children when it's a good social media moment. I'm a mom blogger, and they've got their teeth whitened husband smiling, and the children are in white shirts. White shirt? Who puts a child in a white shirt? I never owned anything white for my children now. They're like in their 20s. So no. But they've got the white shirt and the white teeth and the look at us. But then when the cameras are off, not so interested in those kids anymore.

That's true. And kids know when it's not.

Kids know when it's phony. Exactly. And that's a new way. This is the first generation of kids that were raised with social media from to back. The data now needs to be collected. But we've forgotten about the truth teller. The truth teller is a profound child in the narcissistic environment. This is the kid who sees it and gets it, and they don't have a vocabulary for it. In some ways, they're a bit horrified because they're like, oh, God. And the truth teller struggles. The truth teller may have fantasies of like, oh, my gosh, I wish this parent would leave, or I hope they never come back. They're terrible. This is awful. Now, the truth teller can overlap. You'll have scapegoats who are truth tellers. You'll have helpers. The helper is not so much. The poor helpers are lost in there trying to make mom a martini thing. But the scapegoats can sometimes be truth tellers. But the truth teller can sometimes ultimately be scapegoated because in a weird way, the narcissistic parent almost has this sense that that little kid has their number, and it brings up a lot of shame for that parent, so they'll try to silence that child and almost do the equivalent of almost excommunicating them, putting them in the cheap seats, and ultimately, like I said, scapegoating them.

And then every so often, there's the brainwashed child who thinks the narcissistic parent is just great and doesn't see it even into adulthood. And when other siblings say, But you know mom's a narcissist, and they'll say, Don't say that. She gave up everything for us. You're too selfish to see. So they're fully in the cult.

Dr. Romani, you are unbelievable. Today, we're talking about a mindset reset. That, which is when you identify the default programming in your mind, that critical voice that's constantly chirping away in the background, you're never good enough, you didn't get it right, you look fat. Once you identify that and that you're sick of it, how can you erase that bully and program a new positive soundtrack in its place? Well, Diane is about to help you do just that. Hi.

How are you doing?

I'm great. How are you?

I'm doing all right. Doing all right. Do I have a question for you. I mean, wonderful information from Pappie. My question comes more of, what about when this programming and voices are from spouses, friends, employers, and they're just basically building on what your parents or other people have said.

Great question. So the question is, what if you've got programming from childhood that is basically being reinforced by colleagues, bosses, spouses, friend group, blah, blah, blah. What is the default negative thing that you say to yourself?

It's definitely not good enough, and who the heck do you think you are?

The who the heck do you think you are? That has a real bite to it. Is it? Yeah, it does. So I don't know why I'm going to ask you this, but I'm going to ask you this. Were either of your parents on the Narcissism personality disorder by chance, Spectrum?

Well, I'm pretty close. I would say yes, one of them for sure.

The reason why I say that is because the who do you think you are has a very hostile nature to it. I would imagine, and again, I'm just guessing, just guessing here, that there was a level of either hostility or fighting or outbursts or eruptions that were very chaotic for you when you were a little kid happening with the adults in your house?

I've blocked out a lot. I remember more of my adulthood where my ex was a narcissist.

Okay.

Definitely.

Okay. So I am not surprised that you blocked a lot of childhood out, because what happens is that when you're in a situation that is extremely stressful as a young kid, because the adults around you can't be trusted, or they're erratic, or whatever the situation may be, you live in a state of fight or flight, and the alarm system in your body is going off. And when you are on edge and the alarm system in your nervous system is going off because you don't feel safe around the adults in the house, it impairs the cognitive functioning in your brain. This comes from research out of UCLA. Dr. Judith Willis has studied extensively how nervous system dysregulation impacts the brain's ability to function. If you're busy managing this toxic stress in your body as a your brain's not actually present to make memories. And so super normal to not have a lot of memories, by the way. I do not have a lot of memories from my childhood, from high school, from college, from law school, because I was in a constant state of anxiety. Never present in the room to make memories there. And what I want to tell you first is the good news.

So the good news is, even though you have been the victim of being with a Narcist, and you have had a childhood that was fraught with all kinds of stuff, you can change your brain. You can learn how to calm your nervous system, and you can absolutely change the programming in your mind. And I want you to relate to the programming in your mind as if it was deliberately put there. Because even though a narciss or somebody with a narcissistic personality is not deliberately doing this to you, they are so incapable of empathy. They're not even considering you and me. We're objects. They're just doing what they're doing. But we literally get damaged in the way that we think about ourselves when you're around somebody like that, because you think you're the problem. You think that if there was something different about you, then everything would be okay. And lots of people with a narcissistic personality issue, they actually tell you that you're the problem. And so this was a deliberate programming in your mind at the hands of other adults. Now, the good news is you're an adult, and you can take deliberate steps to reprogram your mind.

And I'm going straight Wait for like, boom in the face on this, because I want you to realize that you got to get deliberate about this. That somebody else trained you to think this way. And it is a level of being deliberate. As if I said, You're going to move to Russia, and you got to speak fluent Russian. I realize you've spoken... How old are you? Sixty-five. You've spoken English for 65 years. But for the rest of your life, we're going to speak Russian. We're going to speech Swahili. We're going to speak a different language. You can learn a different language. Learning to shut off the abusive voice in your head and teaching yourself through thought substitution, a different language is what you're you're going to have to do. So that's number one. Number two, you're not going to overnight be able to look in your ear like, I love myself. It doesn't work that way because you've had a lifetime of people telling you otherwise. And your brain will reject any mantra that you choose that you have actively tried to disprove. And so we got to pick something for you that You may not quite be there yet, but you believe in the truth of it.

And what I believe that everybody deserves is, I think you can say, I deserve to be happy, or I'm a good person who's trying her best, and I deserve to be happy. I'm a kind person who deserves respect. I am doing the best I can, and that's good enough. There are these mantras that kick the You're not good enough, who do you think you are? Thing out of your head. And you can say something back that's like, Hey, I'm a kind person. I'm doing the best I can. And that's good enough. And that is enough of a rebuke, and it's believable enough, even when you're beaten down, that as you repeat it and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it to yourself, because you're going to have to, you will start to believe it. And one final thing that I wanted to say to you is that you know how you said that the program started with my parents, and then it was an ex, and then it was colleagues, and then it was a boss, and it was this. That may be true, but we've also got to start to do the work of catching the filter in your brain.

So yes, your boss may be an erratic douche who calls out the things that are negative or is always in a grouchy mood. But that doesn't mean anything about you. This is where your filter and the programming in your mind scans the world and reads your boss's crappy mood as having to do with you because the narcissus in your life made you feel like everything was your fault. For all you know, your boss's wife is having an affair. He's going through a tumultuous divorce. He's dealing with some issue in his gut, and he has irritable bowel syndrome, which is why he's always grouchy, and he's a really sad, sad guy who can't get his shit together because he has childhood trauma, none of which has to do with you. But your programming in your mind makes you think Everything's your fault. And that's also the part of the work that you're going to need to do. You got to reprogram the words you say, Hey, I'm a kind person. I'm doing the best I can. That's good enough. Or, I deserve to be happy, especially after these assholes that were in my life. You can put a little sauce in there.

You can tell I like a little spicy mantra, like something that... Because if you don't quite believe it, if it doesn't loosen you up a little bit, that's not the right thing to say. Because most mantras are bullshit because people pick things like, I love myself, And then they spend the day going, You look like shit. You screwed that. No, you don't love yourself. I need to give myself a break. I'm doing the best I can. Now, there's a mantra I can get behind because I believe that. And so pick something believable, put a little edge or fun into it because it shakes the mood down a little bit. And then go to work on this filter that you have of making everything as your fault because it's freaking not. Your stupid parents and your dumb ex-husband, all of whom were mentally challenged with narcissistic personalities made you think that horse shit. You're not to blame for that, but you have a responsibility to change the way you talk to yourself and to basically go, not everything's about me. Thank God. I love that you're laughing now. You seem lighter. What did you get out of this?

I love the one thing, it's not everything's about me, period. It's not all of it. And really retraining the brain, really working through, catching those filters. It's going to have to be one step at a time. That's it.

And here's the thing. Give yourself a fucking break. Seriously. Give yourself a break. Have a little bit of compassion. Wow. I got out of a marriage with a raging narcissist. I'm pretty awesome.

Yes, I am.

Yes, you are.

Yes, I am.

Give yourself more credit. And it is true. We get so focused on our own bullshit that we convince ourselves that the world's problems are our doing. Most people have so much stuff going on and are so busy beating themselves up, they're not even thinking about you and me.

All right. You got this.

You got this. Let me hear you say your new mantra.

Well, quit taking myself so seriously. I'm not getting out of this thing alive.

That's true. This ends the same. And how about adding, I might as well enjoy the rest of the ride.

There we go. I may as well enjoy the rest of the ride.

The first 65 kicked my ass. So let's have some fun the next 65.

And they did.

Oh, my Lord. Yeah, but you're here laughing about it. That's more than most can say. And so I do believe the best days of your life are on the road ahead. I want to end with some tools that people can use. So one of the ones that you talk about that whenever I share it, I obviously credit you, that people people just love this, and that's grayrock.

Yeah. So grayrocking, and I can't even take credit from that. Grayrocking is something that's been around for a long time. And grayrocking is a response to the constant baiting that happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcistic people love to fight because it makes you look crazy. If you're getting frothed up, now you're raging like them, and they're like, Oh, you need to calm down. That's a form of gaslighting, too. They get you worked up, and then they look at you like you're You're the one who's unhinged. So the way in some ways to bring down that baiting is just completely disengaged in the most... Absolutely, you're not going no contact, but you're saying, Yes, no. Okay, I didn't know that. Sure.

Now, let me ask you a question like this, because in our family, somebody has had a situation where there was an ex blowing up their phone and Snapchat. Rage, rage, rage, rage, rage, which once I learned that this was happening, a lot of other young women chimed in, Oh, well, I've had somebody do that. It's been dismissed because they're drunk or because they're this or because they're upset or because I'm the ex or because I'm dating somebody new. And we're talking 75 texts over the course of one evening. Pick up your phone. Why aren't you?

I know you're ignoring me. That's abuse.

So when it comes to that, you don't respond at all because aren't they looking for the response? Aren't they seeking the attention?

Now, you can see in a situation like this with gray rocking. You're like, okay, I'm not responding to this stuff. The behavior is going to escalate for a while, and that escalation scares people. And gray rocking is... If you're going to gray rock as a pathway to an exit, to what's ultimately called no contact, which is a really, really stringent characteristic that a lot of people can't follow because they're families, they have to co-parent, all those things, whatever it may be. Full no contact is when people do it, they're like, This is great. I never have to have anything to do with them again. But it's not always possible. So the gray rocking will initially enrage the narcissistic person. If you can white, knuckle it for long enough.

How long? It depends on the person. This is an excellent example for those of you that are in a contentious divorce, for those of you that are dealing with child custody issues, and so you have to negotiate after divorce drop offs or exes. And so pay attention to this because you are correct. If you ignore them, they explode because they want your attention. And so now they're going to escalate it to try to get it.

So now this is where a friend and colleague of mine developed something called Yellow Rock. Tina Swithin, who does amazing work in the space of contentious narcissistic divorce. She came up with a yellow And the idea of yellow rock is not so much the yes, no, you're almost like, so dull, but it's like, yeah, sure. Oh, okay. Yeah. Great. There's emotion. There's lilt. There might even be like, oh, you went there? Oh, did you like that? Oh, that's that new grocery store, right? You're not talking about anything. But yellow rock isn't so dire. Now, in your obsessive texting example, that's a different a situation because that's It's a case where you just don't respond, right? And you save it all. And if it continues like that, you actually might even need to involve law enforcement.

We involved Chris, my husband. He sent a text back saying, We'll involve law enforcement.Yeah, exactly.

Knock it off.It worked.Yeah, it worked. In In many cases, but in some cases it does not. And there's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to happen for it to qualify to get law enforcement involved. So it can't be 10 or 20. It's such a vast number. They're like, Oh, so for me to be fully traumatized is the only way law enforcement will respond. And it's true. Those bars are set in a way that it's hard to intervene. But in ordinary situations where it is a lot of the... Where were you on Saturday night? What were you doing? Oh, your friend coming over and say, Oh, yeah, everything's fine. It's very stepfordy. But for kids to see gray-rocking parents actually is quite traumatizing. That devoid of emotion, robotic feel is unsettling. For kids, it can be unsettling in the workplace. So with yellow rocking, I always say to people, have a list of inert, innocuous topics to talk about the weather, the freeway is going to be closed on Friday. Can you believe it's only a month till this holiday? You have those topics in your back pocket, and then there can be a lot of that.

And once they start baiting, then the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rocking is I tell them, Don't go deep. And don't go deep means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.

Oh, that was an acronym, everybody. Yeah, deep. Don't defend, don't explain, don't engage, don't personalize. What does don't personalize mean?

So can you give us an example of how this works? A person's coming at you with like, Oh, great. Yeah, I can see. Oh, what is this? One of your loser friends having one of their stupid fundraisings for one more of their causes. Yeah, your friend's an idiot loser. So sure, yeah, let's give this person more money. I don't even know why you're friends with these people. Is that how... The noise, they come at you trying to isolate you, right? You don't defend your friends. You don't say, Oh, she means so well. She's raised so much money for this community. You don't explain what the charity does. You don't engage in the back and forth, and you don't make it about you. This has nothing to do with you. That has to do with their insecurity.

Their temper tantrum.

Their tantrum, their insecurity, their being set off. This is a hard one. People say, I told Mary I was going. I RSVPed. I'm going to be going.

Do you say I'm sorry? No. Why did you do wrong? Because I'm conditioned to. I don't know. I just want to keep you happy.

I'm sorry. I don't know. Girl, If I could set up an app that could identify every time- I think it would shock me. Oh, my Lord. That every time a person says, I'm sorry, they did get a little shock through their watch or.

That is the worst thing you could say to a narcissist. I'm sorry.

No, it's the The first thing you could say for yourself. Why are you apologizing?

We're back to the guilt. Because I have been conditioned to believe that if I do something that makes you mad or disappointed or isn't what you want, that I'm bad.

That's a you That's your work. Because I'm going to Mary's fundraiser. I'm going to Mary's fundraiser. Why should I say I'm sorry? I RSVPed four weeks ago. I am not getting into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened. None of that. I RSVPed a month ago. I'm planning on going. I'll be leaving at 7:00. Done. Can you do it with a smile on your face?

I'll tell you, I just sit here and think, why on Earth would you put up with in your life. Maybe I'm competitive. You know what I mean? Maybe I'm competitive. And I'm like, listen, asshole, I make my own money, and I'm going to give it to whoever the fuck I want.

It's the good days and the bad days because you actually had a really nice dinner out on Saturday night.

And they had a bad day to day, and they're stressed out, and they had a lot of childhood trauma.

And relationships are hard, and everything's compromised, and they don't really mean it, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah You're right. I can't be judgy. I'm sorry. I am married to a person who's-Who's an asshole. I was just supposed to say deeply insecure and reactive, which is code for us. See, asshole is the one tidy word that gets at that. But I am married to a deeply insecure person who is a rager. That is who I'm married to. That is a truth. It is on come and say that sentence out loud. It all relates to a concept called cognitive dissonance. We don't like it when incompatible things are happening. That's true. To break It's the tension we justify.

That's true. So it's like the truth, the things that are true are I am married to somebody who is an insecure jerk, right? Because of childhood drama, whatever, and rages. I also have children with this person. I also don't want to go through the nightmare of divorcing this person. I'm going to work on my own stuff in order to have that cognitive psychological dissidence in order to figure out my own stuff.

But you can see after you do all that, you know how people feel? They feel sad. They're like, This is my life. Yes.

Because once you actually wake up and do the work, you just did a Trojan horse. We want you to go to therapy so you become more confident and more self-aware that you actually do not deserve this. This is not your fault. The weather in Chicago is something you can't change. Oh, sneaky. I like that. I like that personal empowerment.

Therapy is always about finding those back doors, and you can't walk in the front door. We We're doing that in day one of therapy class.

Yeah, that's amazing. Wow, you are so smart. Well, I really relate to the title It's Not You, because I think the most predominant thing that I've seen for myself in being in relationships with people with a narcissistic personality style or in listening very closely to a friend or a family member who is in one is that you do think it's you. You think you're the problem, or at least that's the way that I thought, that if only I were a better this or a better that, then this person would change. And so understanding that it's not you, that to me gives me a sense of hope, that if it's not me, then maybe if I focus on me, I can heal from this.

That's exactly right. And I think that, too, the mistake is maybe if I'm a better daughter, better partner, better mother, better worker, whatever, better writer, whatever the better one wants to be, the error is thinking that it will change them.

At best, what it might do is make you a better source of supply.

What do you mean by that?

I'm going to use the example a lot of people give me, okay?

Because we talk a lot about partners. Let's talk about parents for a minute, because even adult children are very much in the thrall of their narcissistic parents.

If only I did this, I visited them more, I called them more, I did this more, I did whatever it may be, okay? Because remember, you're on a grail quest that anyone who's had a narcissistic parent ever has. That grail quest started in childhood, right? That's what's so insidious about people who are still struggling with narcissistic parents when they're adults. You're still showing up with the finger-painted picture when you were four saying, Do you like my picture? Right now, we're doing it with jobs and books and titles and look at my new house and look at my new car and look at this baby I had.

And here's your grandchildren.

And they're still not breaking out of their selfish haze, which we don't equate with parents. So what happens is the child, the child of the narcissistic parent modifies and shapes and tries to become what the narcissistic parent wants. More quiet, more tidy, better tennis player, better grades, more helpful around the house. Sometimes they're even the parents' therapist. They cheer Look at the parent up. Parents are not cheering them up, by the way, but they are like the parents' life coach, everything. Well, that's how you became a better source of supply as a kid. And a person has to do this as a kid, as a child. The child has no choice but to accede and give in to what the narcissistic parent apparently wants and needs, basically subjugate themselves to the narcissistic parent, because it's the only way that child is going to get the absolute essential attachment needs met. That child needs a secure attachment attachment. And when that's not happening just because the parent is being a parent and the child has to modify themselves, they will modify themselves because the child doesn't have the luxury of saying, Oh, my parents are narcissists, so nothing I'm going to do is going to work.

They can't divorce the parent. So they've got to modify themselves. That builds up a muscle in the child. And that muscle that gets built up in the child is that capacity to modify oneself, to be what the other person needs to create an attachment. So not only does that become a bad precedent once you start dating, because then you are putty in the narcissistic person's hands, you're shaping yourself to suit them, you remain, again, in that way with a parent. You continue to say whatever the equivalent of the finger-painted picture is in adulthood, and maybe I will show up more, but it's never enough. And if you did live next door to them, then they'll have contempt for you of why are you taking so much of my time? It's never enough. And so what the person is trying to do in any narcissistic relationship, including with a parent, is we think we're becoming better to change them. When we keep becoming better, we're just becoming better supply. We're giving them everything they want. And what the narcissistic person wants is that we anticipate their needs, read their minds, be what they want, never be a source of stress, prop them up, keep our needs and wants quiet, and then boom, you're the perfect source of supply.

If you're raised by a parent that's narcissistic and conditioned in that way, are you more susceptible to being in narcissistic relationships later in life?

You are. You definitely are. For no other reason that you've built this muscle up, that accommodation muscle, as I call it, right? There's a flexibility a person needs to have and develop if they have a narcissistic parent, or otherwise, they're going to develop pretty severe mental health issues, which does happen to a subset of folks. But by and large, what we see, survivors of narcissistic abuse, especially from childhood, are very flexible, very accommodating, because they had to for survival reasons once upon a time. Now, what I do not buy into is this idea that because a person has narcissistic parents or parents, that they're more attracted to narcissistic people, that's not the case. What they're more likely to get is stuck in that relationship. Narcissistic people are attractive to everyone. Charm, charisma, interesting, curious, confident, rescuable, whatever we need them to be, they often are that thing.

But once it starts getting darker and there's a lot of devaluation, the relationship becomes less healthy. Healthier people may be able to muster up in themselves like, This does not feel good. I don't like this.

But the people who had the narcissistic parent are much more likely to say, Well, this I know this game.

Right.

Because you've been making excuses for your parents for so long.

Exactly. So the slide into the trauma bond is much, much more seamless.

Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe, because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you. So make sure you subscribe.