Transcript of Alternate Realities: Facing the Facts

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Hey, again, I'm Kelly McEvers, and you are listening to the third and final episode in Embedded's Alternate Reality Series. If you haven't listened to the first two, go back to your feed. All the episodes are there. Okay, back to the story.

Here's episode three.

All right. Okay, here we go. Oh, I should go get my list, right?

Yeah, go get your list. All right.

After almost a year of waiting, the day had finally arrived. It was time to close out the bet on dad's 10 predictions with $10,000 on the line. I mean, I have everything, but you can go get your list. Let me just have it, too, so I can look at it and see if there's anything I can pretend happened. Oh, man. Well, at least so far, we're sharing a reality. Dad and I sat across from each other at the same table we shared countless family dinners growing up. He pulled out his handwritten list, and I had my laptop open to a dock full of questions and fact checks. I'm just going to go through the list for your 10 predictions for the year. We'll start with the easy ones. There's four that can easily be grouped together, and that is Barack Obama will be convicted of treason, Joe Biden will be convicted of treason, Nancy Pelosi, convicted of treason, the Clintons, convicted of treason and murder. I would group them categorically. I ran through the list. No convictions, no charges, not even any investigations. Literally no momentum of any kind.

Yes, I fully hoped that would take place before the end of 2024. But that has not taken place.

If you're keeping score at home, that's four for me. All right, next one. You said, Trump will be reinstated without an election. Trump won re-election. He was not reinstated without an election. That's five. Trump will have all charges dropped. On May 30th, 2024. Trump was found guilty and convicted on 34 felony charges in a New York hush money trial. Yeah. That makes six. Moving on. Next one. Governor Hochul, the governor of New York, would be removed from office. Governor Hochul is currently in office with no charges being brought against her. She will be up for re-election in 2026.

That is correct.

Seven. On to the home stretch. Biden will be removed from office, which at the time of the recording, he was still President. Biden is still in the White House. You're not rebutting that.

Yeah, well, because somebody pretending to be the Biden is in the White House. Okay.

We're back to body doubles. But even still, he conceded the point. So that's eight. Okay, then there's one prediction dad was close on because Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, could be removed, just not in time. As it stands right now, he's still the mayor. Right. Tough break, but that makes nine. Okay, last one. Our country would come under martial law. As far as I know, that didn't happen.

That did not happen.

Okay. No any rebuttals there.

I'm very happy that that didn't happen.

And that's 10. So It was clear I was the winner. The whole deal was for you to convince me that you're right, but you're 0 for 10.

Right. I'm 0 for 10. It can only go up from here.

That's one way to put it. At long last, it was finally time to hear dad say the magic words we agreed to a year ago.

I want to have you say after each one of these is that, Wow, dad, you were right and I was wrong.

Same goes for you then.

Do you want me to say that 10 times?

I don't need you to say it 10 times. Just give me one good take.

Okay. All right. So I'm going to say to you, sincerely and honestly and felt that, wow, Zack, I was wrong. And you were correct.

Thank you. I wish I could tell you that dad changed his mind and that the family was able to heal. However- You're really prefacing that Yes.

Because however, just because this has not happened in 2024, doesn't make any of these less valid or less real. I guarantee you, you will see by the end of 2025 that all 10 of these have legs. And I still am 100% positive that all these are true.

So your explanation for why these things did not yet come to ask is that you just got the timeline wrong.

Yes.

Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, dad turned to the failed prophecy playbook. He blamed it on the timeline. We were right back where we started. You still believe what you believe, and I still believe that that's false.

Correct.

Dad's not changing. It's not the outcome I was hoping for, but here we are. So now what? What happens to Kira? What happens to mom? And where does that leave me? The bet was over, but we still needed to assess the damage and see if dad was willing to take any steps towards repair. From NPR's Embedded, I'm Zack Mac, and this is the final episode of Alternate Realities. Donald Trump is back in the White House and making a lot of moves very quickly. Keep track of everything going on in Washington with the NPR politics podcast. Every day, we break down the latest news and explain why it matters to you. The NPR politics podcast. Listen every day. Public media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive. Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts, perks like sponsor-free listening, bonus episodes, early access, and more. So start supporting what you love today at plus. Npr. Org. There's been a lot of attention on loneliness lately. 16% of Americans report feeling lonely all or most of the time. The former surgeon general even declared a loneliness epidemic.

On It's been a Minute, we're launching a new series called All the Lonely People, diving deep into how loneliness shows up in our lives and how our culture shapes it. That's on the It's been a Minute podcast on NPR. Bella DiPaulo is glad if you're happily married, but she is perfectly happy being being single.

I would love to have someone who took care of my car or someone who cleaned up the dishes after dinner, but then I'd want them to leave.

From yourself to your dog to your spouse, our significant Others. That's on the Ted Radio Hour from NPR. Okay, let's back up a second because just days before I sat down with dad to settle the bet, Things with the family had hit an all-time low. Right before flying home for Christmas, I had arranged a call with my mom and sister. I was hoping they could come up with something I could convey to dad in our final conversation. Concrete steps he could take to show he was trying. But minutes before our call, my sister sent a text. She gave me permission to read this, by the way. Last night, I realized to a new degree how angry and hurt I am and I'm not in the space to participate. I made my ask two years ago for him to accept me and love me, and he has seemed very disinterested in doing so. Please continue today without me. Kyra was out. Still, mom suggested we check in. Turns out she had a pretty big update of her own.

Hi.

Hey, how are you?

A lot going on in the last 12 hours.

She began to fill me in. The night before, she and dad were talking about his beliefs around Kira and conspiracies and religion, and if he was open to considering. He said that he's not going to change his religious viewpoints. He's not going to change. Then I just said it. Then I just don't see a path where this marriage can continue. I don't see a path for me. And what did he say? He didn't really respond. After 40 years of marriage, mom was done. They had agreed to separate and for my dad to move I mean, I'm embarrassed to say that situation with Kira wasn't the one that knocked it over. But I was ever hopeful that he would come to a reality about that. But what I realized is that he's beyond redemption at this point. To be honest, I was surprised at how quickly all this happened. Not very long ago, we talked and you were like, Oh, I can't wait for January first, so he'll be proven wrong, and then we can like- Move on. Move on. Here we are, 12 days before New Year's, and it's totally sputtered out. Yeah. I was proud of mom for holding her ground.

Soon she could be unburdened by all this. Free to retire and move on. Also, she gave me some relief of my own. It's been a long time coming. We were headed in this direction long before you. At least it wouldn't be my reporting that did us in. So days later, it was just down to me and dad. I had spent months picturing what confronting him would look like, but none of those scenarios had included me being the only one left on good terms with him. After going through each prediction together, I knew it was finally time to press him. I just see an unwillingness for you to be wrong.

Wrong about 10 things. I'm going to admit, I was wrong about the timeline on all 10 things.

I've been wrong. You see how you prefaced it. Not that you're wrong about them. You're just wrong about the timeline.

Yeah, but that's still a type of wrong.

Sure. But it's a half measure. It's a way for you to be right.

Yeah, because I still believe the majority of these things are legitimate.

Yeah. Despite dad signaling all year, he wasn't going to change his mind, it was still disappointing to see it unfold. All of these beliefs, it feels like you're really holding on to them, and I'm not sure why.

Because I know they're true. Why am I going to abandon truth? Why would I believe a lie? Why would I give that up? And it's not an arrogant thing. It's a knowing in my soul and in my spirit. So, yeah, I can't abandon the truth.

As I watched him dig in and double down, I couldn't help but imagine his future, the unvetted information he'd take in, the precious metals and survivalist gear he'd spend more money on, the people he'd surround himself with as he drifted further away from the family. One of the things I've thought a lot about during this process is, is your dad and what happened to him. And in the face of so many people around him, including yourself, saying, Hey, you're going down the wrong road. Don't do this. Please listen. And he wouldn't hear it from anyone. It cost him his life. I see a lot of parallels with what's happening right now.

Interesting.

I don't think you're at risk of physical danger so much. I think you're at risk of a lot of other things.

What?

Financial ruin. I think you're at risk of being ostracized and completely left out of this family dynamic.

That would break my heart, but I see that.

You're at risk reputationally.

How so?

I think the people in your community, our friends, family, I don't think they believe what you believe. And I do think that's going to continue to impact you negatively.

The majority do not, but I don't talk to them about it. I don't talk to Marty about this stuff.

But you do talk I've talked to Marty about it. I've interviewed Marty about it.

Very small.

I've talked to Marty. I talked to Chuck. I talked to Paul. I talked to John. None of them are really on board with these beliefs.

That's not true.

Paul said he's not on board at all and that it's been really difficult. Chuck, obviously not on board at all. Marty, confused, says, I'm just curious how he got to this place, but I feel like the closest friends in your life, your family, the people around you are telling you, Hey, you're going the wrong way. You're not listening.

Actually, none of them are saying that to me.

None of them?

None of them.

Okay.

Yeah, none of the people you've mentioned have told me that I'm going in the wrong direction. The only people who've said that are you and mom.

So if all those people told you, would you hear them?

I would listen to them. I probably wouldn't change, but I take it into consideration.

You don't think that sounds like your dad?

That aspect of it, yeah. But my dad had trouble living in reality. I don't have trouble living in reality.

I I would argue that you do. At this point in the conversation, I began to struggle. I could feel my patience wearing down. I started to press him more. I mean, look at the state of our family right now. I think we've gotten to this place in large part because of your beliefs.

Well, yeah, you can point the finger at me and say it's because of your beliefs. That's partially true, but it's simultaneously because of the three of your beliefs, right? I understand your beliefs, but I don't believe that way. I'm not going to pretend I believe that way. And I know you guys don't want me just to pretend. You want me to embrace it and live it and think it and breathe it the same way you do. I can't do that. Therefore, it creates a wedge, right?

Yeah.

But it It doesn't have to. And I think the post-COVID years have really magnified and polarized people.

Yeah. But I would say that's when you got radicalized. I don't think ultimately, mom, Kira and I have changed a lot ideologically since that time. I don't think you're in the same place. I think that's what's changed, and we're reacting to that change.

I can agree with that. I see that. I have made more significant changes in the past four years in terms of my own spiritual awareness and spiritual growth.

Yeah.

And that certainly, I know, feels and looks very radical.

Let's talk about mom for a second.

I think I think your mom, I don't know what I think about her anymore. I mean, I don't think negative about her other than she's lost and confused.

I mean, I guess she would say that about you.

Probably, and a lot worse. I continue to love your mom, but this is the irony. She sits in judgment of me and therefore judges me unworthy of being her partner and husband anymore. So she wants to walk away and terminate the relationship and move on. I mean, Short of pretending to be somebody who I'm not, I don't see a solution.

Yeah. I agree. So I think it would take you changing, and it doesn't seem like you're really open to doing that. Yeah.

Or simultaneously, it would take the three of you changing.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah, but I just don't see a compelling sell. It doesn't seem like you're right. I could see dad straining, searching for any solution that didn't involve him being wrong. So he started bargaining.

Zack, I could never talk to you about this again, have great times with you, great conversations, and pretend I didn't believe any of this anymore.

So just suppressing it is the solution, you think?

No, I don't think it's the solution, but that's what I feel pressured to do when I have these conversations with you.

I mean, look, I think this This year has been difficult, especially recently. But I also think you and I have gotten closer than we've ever been.

I agree. And that's why I say, for me, that's worth every dollar.

Yeah, it's not that it's not worth it. It's just, well, I don't know. I don't know that it is worth it. I don't think these beliefs are worth it. I think you're losing a lot for them. I just agree. I think you and I are ultimately where I do feel like we are getting along really well, I do feel conflicted because as that's happening, you and mom are getting separated, and Kira is not home for Christmas. And those are all because of your beliefs.

Simultaneously, I would say to you that all three of you are judging me very harshly. And that's what's causing the rift. I can accept you and love you and have my beliefs and accept your beliefs. You can't accept my beliefs without judging me.

You don't think you're judging Kyra?

Not at all. I love my daughter. I love Kyra.

I know that you do.

I I would never, I would never disown my daughter. I would literally- But you reject her sexuality. I reject her identifying herself as lesbian or queer or whatever. But why? Because I don't believe that's a legitimate label. I refuse to see my daughter only through that lens.

But I think Kira does feel rejected. She does not feel fully accepted by Yeah, I get that.

I get that. I don't know how to convince her otherwise, but I will continue to try. It's not about rejection. See, that's how you guys label it, but it's not rejection. It's about looking at it from a spiritual viewpoint where this is not what God wants for her, right? Because I identify more with God, I take the same path.

What is your plan with Kira?

To continue to reach out to her and continue to reassure her that I love her and want to spend time with her, and I don't I don't sit in judgment of her, and I don't look down on her, and I don't think anything negative about her.

As the conversation wound down, I let go of any notion I could convince him of anything he didn't already believe. I was finally ready to stop struggling and just accept the truth. I couldn't help him. Maybe someone else could. If I arranged for someone to speak with you about this stuff who specialized in this stuff, would you be open to something like that?

Sure.

Yeah? You actually would? Yeah. Okay. I mean, honestly, that's it. I just want to say I do really appreciate. Oh, man, sorry. It's been a hard year, man. It's just... Yeah. But, I mean, I appreciate the conversations we've had all year. I feel closer to you than I ever have. I'm really sad about the state of this family. But I do appreciate your openness, your willingness to... I don't know. I You never ducked a hard question.

No need to.

Where do you think we'll be next Christmas?

I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea, man. I can't even think that far ahead.

Yeah. I have one final question for you.

Okay.

How are you going to pay me? Check? Should we go to the bank? Should I get one of those giant golf checks?

I figured you'd probably want small unmarked bills, non-sequential. Yes. So did you bring a suitcase?

I have a gym bag. Okay.

We'll fill that phobia up.

Let's I'm going to do it. All right, let's get a hug.

All right. I love you. I love you, too.

As we stood there, hugging, I just broke down.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I don't know what comes next, where we go from here. It felt like things fell apart so quickly, but also so slowly over many years. The cracks became holes, and in the end, we didn't make it. I think in many ways, I'm the one who got off the easiest. I'm still in good standing with everyone, which makes me feel a mixture of relief and guilt, maybe a splash of gratitude. For those of you who keep asking, yes, I took the money, absolutely. Okay. We're walking to the Rose Bowl. Yeah. How do you feel? But on New Year's Day, the day my dad officially lost the bet.

I'm pumped up.

I took him to go see Ohio State, our favorite football team, play in the Rose Bowl. What do you think the score is going to be? And paid for everything.

I think it's going to be 31 to 22 bucks.

Okay. Yet another prediction my father got wrong, by the way. But they did win. Go Buckeyes. Let's go. All right.

Let's go.

The day was a reminder of how good things could be, and at the same time of everything we couldn't be, not anymore. As I watched the clock run down, I knew the moment the game was over, so was our shared reality. You just heard alternate realities from Embedded. You can also check out a version of the story that I made for this American life that is available now. This series would not have been possible without my father, mother, and sister, Kyra. I cannot say enough about your openness and bravery and I'm so thankful for your love and support throughout this project. It means the world to me. This series was produced and sound designed by Ariana Garabli and Dan Gurma. The two of you were incredible to work with, and you both have my back every step of the way. You guys are amazing. Luis Treas edited this series. And Louise, I just want to say thank you for all of your dedication and believing in this story from the very beginning. Music includes original scoring by my guy, Peter Leonard. Gaili Moon and Robert Rodriguez mastered this series. Fact-checking by Greta Pittenger. Special thanks to Sarah Wyman for production support.

Liana Simstrom is our supervising senior producer. Katie Simon is our supervising senior editor. Katie, thank you for being so patient with me throughout this process. Irina Gucci is our executive producer. Npr's Senior Vice President for podcasting is Colin Campbell. What up, Colin? The Embedded team also includes Adelina Lantzianiz, Abby Wendell, Andrew Mombo and Reina Cohen. Thanks to Managing Editor of Standards and Practices, Tony Caven, and to Micah Ratner and Johannes Durgy for legal support. Our Visuals Editor is Emily Bogle. Original tile art by Luke Medina. Special thanks to Kelly McEvers, Brett Neely, Sarah Ventry, and Lauren Gonzales, and also David Kestenbaum, Francis Swanson, and Ira Glass from this American Life. Also, thank you to Nashat Kurwa from Vox Media, Simon Adler, and Tessa Stewart, who helped with this story early on. Thank you to the people in my life, Joshua Muir, Ellen Skiff, and all the other friends who have kept me sane over the months. Shout out to my personal board members, Sean Ramiswurm and Chris Banon. And Dave Johnson, thank you so much for your contract support. Finally, we are grateful to all the social scientists, journalists, and other experts who took the time to speak to us and whose research informed this series, including Charlie Safford, Joseph Usinski, Tom Costello, Sander Vanderlinden, Gordon Pennycook, Matthew Taylor, Alexandra Philindra, and Brad Onishi, who has a great podcast called Straight White American Jesus.

Check it out. A big thanks to our Embedded Plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long-form journalism at NPR, and Embedded Plus helps us keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded series, sponsor-free, and every episode early. Find out more at plus. Npr. Org/embedded, or find the Embedded channel in Apple. All right. I'm Zack Mac, and this is Embedded from NPR. Thank you for listening.

Hey, Zack. Just wanted to check in with you, see how you were doing, and then I also just wanted to say we just come from different points of view, and I hope that as we continue to talk here in 2025 and as you edit this program, you'll recognize that we just come from different viewpoints, and we can still cohabitate, so to speak, even though we disagree on our worldviews. All All right. Love you. Have a great day. Bye.

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